I've noticed a trend in the media: The sexualization of male friendship.

ENTP · 2013-06-20T08:10:22+00:00

my male friends are the most important people in my world. let people say and think what they want.

nigglereddit · 2013-06-20T08:59:54+00:00

A little history:

A lot of this dates back further than you might think. In the late 1800s, Oscar Wilde was tried and eventually convicted of "gross indecency" - in other words of being gay.

Prior to this time, it had been quite normal for men to have extensive physical contact. For example, it was quite usual to see soldiers on leave walking hand in hand in London. Homosexuality wasn't any more or less prevalent than now, but society found physical contact between men, particularly men who had served together in harsh circumstances, perfectly acceptable.

After Wilde's trial, the writers of the day immediately recorded a huge change. Soldiers no longer walked hand in hand. Men were very careful about how such physical contact they had and what kind, for fear of accusations being made.

This continues to this day. I've experienced it myself, many times.

I'm a climber and mountaineer. I've shared some hard times with my climbing partner, who also happens to be my best friend who I've known since college. We've also shared a lot of physical intimacy - I've let him put his hands and feet inside my clothing to stay warm during long cold bivouacs and we've held each other close and snoozed on each other's shoulders on tiny ledges too small for puritan ideas about personal space.

Yet last year during after picnic in the park with all my friends and plenty of beer, when we were enjoying the last of the afternoon's sun lying on the grass and I was lying with my head on his leg, a stranger was quick to comment, "that's so gay".

Really?

He just smiled and ruffled my hair fondly.

But really?

We're both nearly 40, married with kids - and our wives were at the picnic. But simply touching my friend was enough to be accused of being gay.

Welcome to the new age of puritanism.

Ashnarok · 2013-06-20T10:15:07+00:00

I see the term 'bromance' as a positive thing. It's more or less a word you use to "dismiss" the sexual (gay) implications of the interaction. 'Brohug' bro- this bro- that is used to clarify brotherly affection I.E. family.

Ofcourse people use it (more so women) as a shaming tactic sometimes but at least for me it usually is just a very clear sign of jealousy. All in all i see this trend as a good thing, hopefully in the future we don't have to use these words to show affection to other men.

I would predict that things get better when homosexuality is viewed more positively in society.

cypher197 · 2013-06-20T20:26:28+00:00

The funny thing is, one my best buddies is gay (and masculine). When I need to talk about Man Stuff™, I often take it to him because he's the dude I know that's most comfortable with his masculinity.

I don't think "bromance" is quite intended to have sexual connotations; it depends on who's using it and where. In fact, I think the term came into usage so that guys could have close male friendships again.

As to the folks complaining that the only reason one might object to being (wrongly) thought gay is homophobia... It would definitely bother me to be considered gay even though I don't have a problem with gays, and even though I know gay men who are pretty damn manly. I mean, if you went up to a gay man and went "pfft, you're not gay," do you think he'd take it positively?

Silgrenus · 2013-06-20T17:39:55+00:00

Speaking as a gay man, it's kind of a two-edged sword with me. On the one hand, it's like I naturally make that sort of assumption, and half the time I hope it's true. On the other hand though, I've come face to face with this in that every time I hang out with one of my straight male friends, people automatically assume I'm trying to 'convert' them. Hanging out with another gay or bisexual friend is also a 'date' to other people, and sometimes the friends themselves.

It sucks, because I only recently (read, about a year and a half ago) realised how close the friendships between my male friends and I actually were. Up until that point, I'd assumed they felt awkward around me for being gay, and so hung out with girls who I didn't especially like so as to have some company. But now it's like we've been best buds from day one. It also kinda makes it even harder for new male friendships to blossom, like on television, because it isntantly becomes a 'shlash' relationship. However, one little gem of true male friendship is definitely seen in 'Dragon Age 2' between Anders and Varric, who calls the former 'Blondie' as a nickname. Varric knows that Anders is constantly in danger due to his status as a renegade and illegal mage, and so uses his underground connections to keep him hidden, to keep both law enforcers and bounty hunters away from him, and to protect him from gang warfare. All without asking Anders if he wanted that. Because Anders is always my go-to relationship partner in the game, I don't know if this happens otherwise, but I think it does.

I think coupled with this is an undercurrent of homophobia: Men are automatically assumed to be homophobes, even gay men like myself (I've had so many gay guys call me a self-hater for various reasons, all of which are untrue) so like you said it could be used by women and society to shame men into having less control over their free time. It also keeps men in the rigid gender box of 'being a man', because only a gay guy who WANT to have friends who they can express thoughts and emotions with in a platonic relationship based on respect and friendly love. Not the straight macho man who doesn't have feelings at all, and who only needs a woman in his life to clean up after, shag and to cook for him. Plus, all 'male friendships' must have their foundations exclusively over beer, pizza, sports and cars. Don't get me wrong, pizza and sports are definitely fun, but there are more things for men to bond over. (Music/Video games/Sci-fi, etc)

Anyway, that's just my two cents about it.

rnngnmn · 2013-06-20T19:48:37+00:00

It's even worse if you are a gay man with straight male friends - all but the most clued-in seem to assume gays only associate with other gays, and every time they see you with another guy, assume something about him, and you.

The term 'bromance', however, is actually to be supposed platonic - it means two guys who are very close, but have nothing sexual going on (ala Turk and JD on Scrubs are the epitome of it).

blueoak9 · 2013-06-20T16:26:01+00:00

"I see it everywhere now. The term "bromance" and going "Brokeback" etc. It seems guys can't be friends unless there is some sexual element foisted upon that relationship by women who seem to be attempting to shame the men involved so they can control their free time."

This is isolating behavior. it is on every checklist of how to recognize an abusive relationship. In this case the abusive relationship is society-wide.

In this case the answer is to ignore those particular women for your own good. They don't mean you any good.

AceyJuan · 2013-06-20T09:27:17+00:00

I agree. Anyone who implies that male friendships are gay needs some public shaming. Humans are social creatures and friendship is absolutely necessary and good. These insults aim to take away our social bonds, and are the worst sort of attack.

literallyschmiteraly · 2013-06-20T14:34:15+00:00

I do agree. I think it's a way of discouraging straight males from friendship with other males.

It's also part of the SJW "aboslutely everyone is secretly gay" fantasy.

brightcityvice · 2013-06-20T06:41:55+00:00

I don't agree with your post, I thought it was more accepting of male bonding, rather than just two guys drinking scotch and talking about sports all the time. I do think some women seem to put down male relationships and guys need to exaggerate these qualities in order to justify their relationship with another guy. Overall I think it's better we have some guys who are portrayed investing emotions and feelings into relationships with their guy friends, showing that friends relationships mean just as much as their partners.

meinerHeld · 2013-06-20T14:54:11+00:00

This is one of the ways that our society tries to keep men from congregating together (sausagefest) and forming close friendships (bromance). It serves the elite because they can easier control men who are isolated and alienated and it also serves women because it's easier for them to control men with no close friends and of course they don't like when men have boys clubs that they can't join.

GreennRanger · 2013-06-20T17:11:25+00:00

Yeah I say I am having a sleepover with my male friends or something along those lines, and instantly the conversation turns derogatorily sexual. My generation.facepalm

2013-06-20T17:21:04+00:00

Hmmm. You may be onto something. One time a girl made a comment about how I "had a date" with my male friend whom I would usually eat dinner with. Another implied that there was something sexual going on between him and I when I went to eat with my friend instead of the girl and her group.

nonplussed_nerd · 2013-06-20T17:42:51+00:00

It's a metaphor. Alluding to love and romance is a good way to emphasise the deep connections that some men have in their friendships with each other.

We are adults, we should be able to use metaphors without getting hung up on the literal interpretations thereof.

Don't see a problem with this at all.

rightsbot · 2013-06-20T04:48:17+00:00

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dirtsurfer · 2013-06-20T17:04:41+00:00

Anyone have any kind of cultural study showing men have always been adverse to homosexuality or that men are naturally repulsed, across all societies, by the thought of man on man love anymore than women?

I'm talking a real study, across cultures, maybe across generations.

As an example, I know it was commonly accepted that homosexual exploration would occur in boarding schools and that one grew out of it later on. Christopher Hitchens talked quite a lot about being in love with his mates and jerking each other off.

Additionally, the Kama Sutra addresses homosexuality and the ancient greeks were well known for both their preference of platonic love and homosexual exploration.

Mrmojoman0 · 2013-06-21T15:20:28+00:00

many young boys do want physical contact, which they cannot find anywhere. not with their dads, because their dads might be scared of being called pedophiles. less than they used to with their moms, who are often working and or single. both parents are less likely to show affection to a young boy than a young girl. often the only contact they can have with someone else is violence. anything else, and suddenly you lose all relationship prospects with girls because you are "gay", or a "pervert".

this couldn't possibly... you know, encourage violence could it?

nigglereddit · 2013-06-20T06:28:56+00:00

Evidence?

Who has ever said "going brokeback?"

How does "bromance" imply sex? They put "bro" in it to mean it's about male bonding, not sex. Movies about "Bromance" don't have gay sex in them.

And so what if people hint that you might be sexually interested in men? This is a good thing for men who actually are. They can be less shamed for it. Show me how anyone has been shamed out of hanging out with friends this way. I'll bet this actually means you're being treated as more open minded.

To be shamed this way, you have to take homosexuality as something bad. That's your problem if you do.

Your post doesn't seem to have much substance. Evidence would help, otherwise we can call this a good sign of more tolerance. Increasing acceptance of gay marriage shows it.

namae_nanka · 2013-06-20T14:40:11+00:00

not that there is anything not wrong with that!

edit: Weininger sez:

"That the rudiment of homosexuality, in however weak a form, exists in every human being, corresponding to the greater or smaller development of the characters of the opposite sex, is proved conclusively from the fact that in the adolescent stage, while there is still a considerable amount of undifferentiated sexuality, and before the internal secretions have exerted their stimulating force, passionate attachments with a sensual side are the rule amongst boys as well as amongst girls.

. . . There is no friendship between men that has not an element of sexuality in it, however little accentuated it may be in the nature of the friendship, and however painful the idea of the sexual element would be. But it is enough to remember that there can be no friendship unless there has been some attraction to draw the men together. Much of the affection, protection, and nepotism between men is due to the presence of unsuspected sexual compatibility. "

2013-06-20T07:53:03+00:00

People rarely imply anything sexual about female/female friendships?

I think the truth is there often IS a sexual element to many same sex relationships. To many relationships in general. This is not to say the people are going to have any actual sexual contact.

neilmcc · 2013-06-20T08:01:22+00:00

Men and women can't 'just be friends' for a reason. Discouraging sexuality between same sexes gives space and prevents discomfort in pursuing friendship as one's motives aren't always in question.

Title	I've noticed a trend in the media: The sexualization of male friendship.
Author	[deleted]
Upvotes	63
Comments	114
Date	June 20, 2013 4:46 AM UTC (13 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/1gpiop/ive_noticed_a_trend_in_the_media_the/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/ive-noticed-a-trend-in-the-media-the-sexualization.1170700 https://theredarchive.com/post/1170700

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