How does one have confidence with women specifically with a lifetime of constant rejections?

AllOrDeath · 2014-10-13T22:33:47+00:00

I'm an incel and am becoming increasingly confident in other areas of my life, but with women I see no rational basis for me to be confident with them...

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About 80% were kind but not interested/had a boyfriend. - Easy to deal with
About 10% were bitchy/offended and not interested. - Slightly less easy to deal with, but make for good stories.
About 5% were flirty but played too hard to get, wouldn't let me escalate or pursue them - either not sold yet or had a bf. They would usually give out their number but wouldn't respond - Usually puts you in state, either gets you horny or increases your mood, SUPER EASY to deal with
About 5% were interested and would give me their number/let me escalate physically - though I didn't get any lays from cold-approach this summer. Only from Tinder, but the girls weren't that great. - the EASIEST to deal with. This is where you can really work on game. Escalate, escalate, escalate. Sooner the better

This is my first year, so I'm new as well. I've had those same thoughts as you, and the only thing you can do is fight them. Be stronger than them. If you let them get to you, you'll either get incredibly depressed or go on a rampage.

Game is tough when you aren't really attractive. I'm 5'9 and have pretty average looks. I have a good diet and lift 5 days a week, so I'm probably a bit above average. But it's still fucking tough. You have to prove yourself by digging through the mud and gaining experience.

The thing is, suicide is essentially the most beta thing you can do. No one will respect you. You know the game, you know what reality is like. If you leave, you're basically telling the world and all of the people that dislike/doubt you, "Hey, you're right, I am a piece of shit and I deserve to die!"

Be better than that.

[–]AllOrDeath0 points 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Yea, those numbers are absurdly bad, no offense. Fuck that sort of life. For me at least.

This is my first year, so I'm new as well. I've had those same thoughts as you, and the only thing you can do is fight them. Be stronger than them. If you let them get to you, you'll either get incredibly depressed or go on a rampage.

Yea, hopefully you'll improve. I'm already depressed. I hope I don't go on a rampage.

Game is tough when you aren't really attractive. I'm 5'9 and have pretty average looks. I have a good diet and lift 5 days a week, so I'm probably a bit above average. But it's still fucking tough. You have to prove yourself by digging through the mud and gaining experience.

How long have you been working out?

The thing is, suicide is essentially the most beta thing you can do. No one will respect you. You know the game, you know what reality is like. If you leave, you're basically telling the world and all of the people that dislike/doubt you, "Hey, you're right, I am a piece of shit and I deserve to die!"

I really don't care if it's beta or not. That sort of argument is not persuasive to me. I place no inherent value in being alpha or beta. In fact, I enjoy acting like a beta more than anything. It's the results of each that dictate more so which I'm trying to be. My interest in being alpha is purely utilitarian.

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Wow, your rudeness really inspired me to work on myself...

To respond to the only meaningful part of what you've said, I've read the sidebar multiple times, have read many articles and watched many videos on many websites about this stuff, looked into or read all the books suggested to me by this subreddit and other similar sources and I've approached using all the ideas I've come across in the manosphere to varying degrees. All of this has been going on for years and nothing changes.

So let me ask you, since you're so confident that all this stuff HAS to work for EVERYONE, taking what I said as fact (which means you don't find some loophole where you assert that I'm not doing what I ought to be doing) what more can I do? What reason do I have to believe I will be successful with women ever?

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Looks trump everything but they are given, not earned so it's pointless to worry about it like height/race.

What if I am not good looking enough to achieve what I want to achieve socially or sexually?

you aren't getting dates then change your approaches. Online dating (coffee meets bagel is my favorite), go to meetup groups, social sports (I strongly recommend), salsa dancing class, etc.

I've tried online dating. I fail harder there than in RL. I've been trying to find meet ups. Money is an issue for classes.

I stopped going for numbers at bars because it's not a good use of time compared to the other activities.

Why? What was so bad about the bar?

Based solely on your comments/post history it would be fair to assume that you aren't the most chipper person.

It depends on my mind. You'd think I was bipolar if you saw the way I interact when circumstances are pleasant and when they aren't.

Who do you think a girl would be more attracted to: the guy in the corner with a scowl on his face or the guy who looks like he just won a million dollars?

Obviously, the money guy.

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[–]AllOrDeath1 point 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Value is relative. In order for you to even ascertain if something is valuable you need to have a person or object which will be benefited and a thing that will cause the benefit. You also need a clear definition of what it means to benefit that person or object. Thus, you create a frame work in this way to assess what is beneficial and what is not. As you get into the details of that analysis you will find that things you label as valuable change as well. Thus, it is relative.

As for your nature idea, it depends on the scope you are talking about. If you mean nature as to include everything that has existed, does exist and will exist and everything that occurs within existence then, yes, obviously nature is the only way to see anything. If your definition is more akin to what is statistically genetic then natural does not necessarily imply good, proper or the only way to see life. Things change then.

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That's a great start actually. Getting numbers is a big deal, some guys can't even get to that part. I'd say baby steps but that's pretty significant.

You're probably taking more than you can chew right now, getting the number is very critical. I'll try to help as much as I can, now...

I really do need you to be more specific or all we can give is general advice, which is also on the sidebar. If you get the girl's number what part of the process does she reject you? Do you get to the meeting part at least?

While you answer that here goes more general advice:

Usually when you get rejected you're putting girls way up in the pedestal. You'll often see it be said in this sub that you wouldn't take the shit of a little 5 year old, picture women as so.

You're most likely never going to see the person again and your slate will be clean next time you approach. Don't bring baggage of the last rejection to the next girl because it's a new opportunity every time and she'll smell the vibe from you. Bitches are keen, man. The good thing is you can restart the game as many times as you want.

Also you need to approach way more girls (though take it to your own pace). 5 a month isn't enough for you to be desensitized, it's a process. It's painful and if you want to change your life you have to go through it. (No pain, no gain).

Once you realize not to take it personally, you can move on to the next girl's number. Abundance mentality helps with this as well, keep this in mind and don't dwell on it. Just. Keep. Going. Forward. My man.

Edit:

I just checked your previous posts and it seems you've gotten just about the exact same advice I have given.

With this information I'd say you haven't swallowed the red pill just yet. Just being honest and I'm not trying to disrespect by the way. You're either in step 1 or step 4.

http://www.reddit.com/r/TheRedPill/comments/1x0gln/the_five_stages_of_red_pill_and_how_to_read_rtrp/

Once you get past this you can finally start taking action. As you are now I can see you have trouble swallowing the truth of how women really are. Because you haven't accepted this nothing has worked for you which makes sense.

Give it some time and keep give field reports every month. Once you stop making excuses and do what you've learned or the advice we've told you. Then you'll start getting more results.

We've all gone through this, you're not the only one hurting. I really feel for you, you just can't give up on yourself. Because no one wants someone who doesn't even like himself. Start caring for yourself, get your body ripped and life straight. You'll start seeing a lot more attention from women without even saying a word.

You can't really complain if you haven't done any of this, can you?

[–]1oldredder0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

This means your brain is weak and you are hopeless. Period.

It's like your sole purpose in life is to cry over what you can't have and to want things you can't have and to be a person who is never meant to get anything good. Ever.

I could get rejected a million times and it won't hurt my psyche. I'm built that way - period. Once upon a time I was emotionally hurt because I was lied to and believed the lie. Because I wasn't built weak, was just young, inexperienced & lied to, I was hurt. Now the lie is gone, has no power over me, there is no way for me to be hurt.

That lie is that women have real value, that they can be trusted (never) and that my life is better with them always in it (lie) and to do that I should make them happy (lies).

Now those lies are defeated I can't be bothered at all by their fickle, untrustable nature. I go get what I want and what I want is entertainment at my whim as I please, and longer-term stability so nothing of my flow of life, my income, demands made on me, are at their whim. Ever.

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OK: you have to change everything about every detail of what is seen or heard about you to the finest minutiae until it's appealing.

Happy now? I can't believe this needs spelling out to atomic detail.

Every millisecond of how you move & what purpose you seem to have is soaked into her eyeballs and she figures out from that if you are confident, assured, goal-oriented, strong, masculine, trendy, experienced with women, and so on. If anything is off she'll know it.

If you need instruction better than "dress better, show confidence" etc., then you can't be helped. Smart guys figure it out. It's your job to figure it out not to ask others to do so for you. It can't be done. You'd need literally a life-coach (those are expensive) to dress you, move you like a puppet after watching you try/fail and guide you. How helpless are you?

Let's step back a bit & ask the obvious: are you spending most of your time away from women so none are around to see you when you are doing anything useful / masculine / confident?

When you are around women what do you think they see? YOU be detailed first before insisting everyone else imagine the entire context of your immediate surroundings and try to work with it.

[–]Carkudo0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (14 children) | Copy Link

So it's all about looking good and feeling it? Because fuck, I've been struggling with my looks all my life and my failures often seem to boil down to the fact that I'm the worst-looking man in the room.

Let's step back a bit & ask the obvious: are you spending most of your time away from women so none are around to see you when you are doing anything useful / masculine / confident?

No, actually. I'm surrounded by women the majority of the time and I'm not exactly timid of them. It's just that most of the time, they literally don't care about my actions, don't notice them. And the best reaction my confidence and masculinity elicit is a half-derisive "How cute".

Recently, for the first time in my life there was a woman who was genuinely attracted to me and the difference from the usual treatment was staggering. Not only did she take me more seriously than any woman before in my life, she was impressed by little things I did that I didn't think could be impressive to an adult person (like figuring out how to fix a broken bicycle).

When you are around women what do you think they see?

Honestly? From what I've been able to gather, they seem to see this funny little caricature of a man trying to act like a real one. I mean, I try not to let those kinds of attitudes get in the way of me being myself, but that's how it is.

[–]1oldredder0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (13 children) | Copy Link

I sense something is missing, like you know there's a big obvious reason and you just don't want to share it. To actually be like what you're describing you either act like you have zero confidence, because maybe you are unskilled at anything/everything, or you are deformed, or super-fat, super-short, something else obvious in person but I can't see it because you're not saying so.

Just being able to fix a bike is not enough to make a difference why one women notices you and the others don't. It's a good thing but it just doesn't add up.

When you're around women what do women see at FINE LEVEL DETAIL of how you dress, what you do, what you say, like be specific like it's a photograph and I can see it, and so on. How tall are you, are you over-weight, under-weight, by how many pounds, etc.

I'm putting my good time in for your benefit here, unpaid, try not to be deliberately unhelpful in detail. It's your choice. I won't waste time if I feel that's the only possible outcome.

[–]Carkudo0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (12 children) | Copy Link

I sense something is missing, like you know there's a big obvious reason and you just don't want to share it.

My best guess (and one that's been corroborated quite a few times) is that it's my looks. I look very boyish, unmasculine and just generally unattractive, to the point that low test was suspected in me on more than one occasion (levels turned out to be normal).

maybe you are unskilled at anything/everything

This is also an issue. I have interests and hobbies, but I'm only particularly good at one, which also happens to be what I currently get paid to do.

Part of it is probably just me not being good enough to truly become awesome, but part is also that caricature image I seem to project. On more than one occasion I found peer groups encouraging me to give up trying to get better or even ask me to leave due to incompetence. That puts a major damper on overall confidence as well.

Just being able to fix a bike is not enough to make a difference why one women notices you and the others don't.

No, that was just her attitude AFTER she noticed me. The reason she noticed me at all is more or less a mystery to me, but I suspect it's my work skills - that's what usually nets me the most positive attention, and she does have the same job.

When you're around women what do women see at FINE LEVEL DETAIL

They don't care to look that closely, really.

How tall are you

5'10, which is slightly above average in my country IRRC

are you over-weight

190 lbs and with the breakthroughs I had with lifting in the past few months, I wouldn't call myself overweight. Massive love handles left over from childhood obesity, though.

[–]oldredder1 point 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

ok! Now we got something to work with. Formerly obese: some people never get over the emotional condition of how you were socially treated while in that state, even if you're not anymore.

Love handles: you can work off that kidney ham with some cardio. All sorts of exercises will bulk up the obliques & abs. I like a very simple exercise because it's so fast and easy, crunched up like I'm doing one curl-up but then instead of releasing to repeat I put my arms together,

turn left, hold a bit, turn right, the whole time every rep works the obliques. It doesn't feel like it's much effort but it's building tone very quickly. Sorry to say this burns not much fat so the fat over the muscles will not go away untl you burn it off. Burpees, running, anything burning off energy will help burn off that fat.

The women always look that closely at fine level detail. always. I've spoken to enough of them to hear what they say they look at, watched their eyes as they look at other guys too. They look at very fine detail all the time forever. Period.

If men encourage you to give up it's because you look like you already have and your appearance of accepting failure is annoying to be around. You can only change this by never giving up and being obvious you won't give up.

You also need to improve yourself in every way possible. Try a little of everything for your strength, exercise and some more useful hobbies.

As for looking too boyish it might be that your genes will let you show aging better many years from now. There's nothing you can do about that but you can choose how you dress so you look like you dress for your age group.

The physical part of attraction is important but it can improve with age for men. It usually does improve.

To boost some of the emotional interactions with women ahead of time check out /r/PracticalSexAndLove because while it may not work if not applied well, it can work if you keep practicing.

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[–]oldredder1 point 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

There is no benefit to that outcome.

Your health will reflect in your attractiveness & as a man that can build all the way into your late 60's depending on diet, stress & exercise.

Odds of success do not matter & your discouragement is from pretending something matters which in fact is a bad indicator. I see this too with investors who don't understand what is money, what is risk, what is gain, how % of success does not matter and so they are always fooled. What they do measure is bad indicators and what are good indicators they refuse to look at, to even consider, so they always lose lots of money and very quickly. I came here from Zerohedge, in effect. Comments there pointed me to mgtow (mgtowhq . com) and from there to here (since here makes more sense for my interactions).

The TRUE red pill is FAR FAR Bigger than sexual strategy, it is to question the ENTIRE edifice of lies upon which society & economies, governments are built, and that's where I joined in with zerohedge back in 2008.

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That's a pretty low-bar goal.

For you. We all have different value systems.

You should be wanting to improve your health, your looks, your income, where you live, your ability to lift, run, climb, and skills.

I don't care about how fast or long I can run, what I can and can't climb and how much weight I can lift. I don't care about material things so money isn't a big deal to me though I'd like to have enough of it to live comfortably. I don't care about my looks in and of themselves because what are they other than a tool to get others to like you and to be appreciated in some form? Where I live is whatever. I think many different sorts of places can offer happiness and I live in a pretty good spot as it is. Health and skills are the only ones that begin to resonate with me. Health, though, is only relevant if one has a good life. If one is in constant unavoidable misery, why be healthy? To prolong the suffering? Skills are fine, but I have few things that motivate me as much as my desire for sex. So what do I care if I'm good at math, for instance, or not if I can't fuck?

THEN the women should be able to see the value & give little resistance to flirting and/or seek you out without you trying anything.

Maybe. That's what people keep telling me and the only reason I haven't offed myself yet.

[–]1oldredder0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link

[–]AllOrDeath[S] 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

Sounds like you're doing things wrong on purpose to complain about it. If what you want is failure it seems you got a plan figured out. Run, climb, lift. DO IT and stop telling yourself you can't, won't or that you "just don't like it".

I'm exercising, but I'm not going to pretend that I'm doing it because I care about far I can run or anything like that. I am doing it to get laid, to look good (which mostly falls under the previous reason) and cause the health benefits will make my life better. That's about it.

Women will not like you if you have no value and they will not focus on just one thing and ignore all your other failings.

Don't they do this with confidence or alphaness?

If you're not good at things and it's obvious it's the reason you can't fuck because the women will ignore you.

There are some skills that value that matter to women than others though. I could be exceptional at physics, let's say, and be useless in most girls eyes. You might retort that if I have the right frame and all that then it would work, but they are admiring the frame not the physics itself which is different if I were to say, again using a arbitrary example, I DJed at celebrity exclusive parties where there is inherent social status in that.

[–]1oldredder0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

[–]AllOrDeath[S] 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

No. They do this with every detail of every action forever. When they want information to figure this out & it isn't available they'll invent / imagine to fill the gaps (hamstering).

I, unfortunately, agree with this. Essentially, you are describing them as creatures of judgment and assumption. Those are ugly and unattractive traits. At least to me.

I've never DJed I was merely using those 2 things as an example. The point is that some things, topically, are more valuable to women than others. Which means even if you are good at X that doesn't men a woman will appreciate or be attracted to you for being good at X. Isn't that a central part of why orbiters exist? The man has a function, a use, potentially something he may be good at (like making money with stocks, let's say), but since he's not alpha they use him for that value, but don't actually like him despite his value.

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Title	How does one have confidence with women specifically with a lifetime of constant rejections?
Author	AllOrDeath
Upvotes	4
Comments	103
Date	October 13, 2014 10:33 PM UTC (11 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/askTRP
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/asktrp/comments/2j5rrc/how_does_one_have_confidence_with_women/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/askTRP/how-does-one-have-confidence-with-women.142807 https://theredarchive.com/post/142807