What's the MRP stance on responsive sexuality?

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September 20, 2017

The more I'm ingesting information the more I'm coming across this idea that sex drives work in two separate (allegedly) legitimate ways:

  • Spontaneous: "I just get in the mood sometimes and I don't know why. Even small triggers can set me off."

  • Responsive: "I won't have any sexual desire for you until you get me in the mood."

It seems like a cop-out to me. Even so, I see two competing RP principles at work:

  • RP seems to assume women are naturally spontaneous but become responsive when their man goes beta and they no longer desire him. Then, when they spot a higher value man who shows IOIs, they become spontaneous again. Ideally this is her husband becoming that higher-value man.

  • RP also says that men should always initiate, even when their wives aren't giving off IOIs because that initiation might get her in the mood. So, RP suggests flirting, game, kino, etc. to get her in the mood.

Thoughts? Is the second RP position a tacit acknowledgment that some women are mostly responsive in their sexual desire and that's okay/legitimate? Or does RP suggest that all women can and should be spontaneously sexual and it's just a matter of the man becoming high-value enough? If the answer is "it depends on the woman," does this mean "AWALT" is not true in regard to how female sexual desire functions on a categorical level (obviously specific desires will vary)?

Post Information
Title What's the MRP stance on responsive sexuality?
Author Red-Curious
Upvotes 8
Comments 81
Date 20 September 2017 06:18 PM UTC (3 years ago)
Subreddit askMRP
Link https://theredarchive.com/post/205408
Original Link https://old.reddit.com/r/askMRP/comments/71d0z6/whats_the_mrp_stance_on_responsive_sexuality/
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[–][deleted] 8 points9 points  (67 children) | Copy

RP seems to assume women are naturally spontaneous but become responsive when their man goes beta and they no longer desire

this is wrong.

women in general are responsive more so than spontaneous but you have to understand that they are responding to cues you do not consider.

This is why we will say that chad has girls jumping on his dick .

She is responding to his cues of attraction. So before he walks up, she is already more open to him because of the feeling he generates in her. This is why its difficult to overcome years of being a schlub - she still experiences you in that way.

[–]Red-Curious[S] -1 points0 points  (66 children) | Copy

What you're describing is still spontaneous, though. The fact that a man gets hard when he sees cleavage but is flaccid when she's in a sweater doesn't make him a sexually responsive person, otherwise you'd be labeling pretty much everyone on the planet as "responsive" except a select few, which would render the whole classification system as pointless; or otherwise would just be defining things inconsistently with the alleged research behind it.

My understanding is that it's a scale. Nobody is 100% purely spontaneous or 100% purely responsive. The man who gets hard to the simple sight of cleavage is probably 98% spontaneous, 2% responsive. The woman who gets tingles before Chad even approaches her is 98% spontaneous, 2% responsive.

Maybe this is just my poor judgment, but a 'responsive' label should only apply when it takes some degree of sexual initiation before the person becomes aroused. So, if she's getting tingly before Chad makes his intentions for the evening clear, that leans more toward spontaneous desire - she wants it even before she knows it's coming.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (65 children) | Copy

of course its a scale. but in general, women tend to lean toward responsive. They will rarely initiate sex with a man. What they will do is leave huge easy opportunities for the guy they want.

PPD discussed this in detail. The ladies basically agreed that most of the time the guy has to be attractive enough to have them be open to the idea. The more attractive, the more open.

[–]rebbit_reddit0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

There's a difference between how responsive/spontaneous they are and how overtly they initiate sex. A very conservative woman may be horny but not initiate

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

If she is smart she will find a way to let you know

[–]Red-Curious[S] 0 points1 point  (62 children) | Copy

Gotcha. So, in your view, responsive sexuality is a perfectly legitimate thing even in an RP framework, and thus it's okay if a woman never initiates or shows spontaneous desire for her husband. Or am I taking this conclusion further than you would?

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (59 children) | Copy

its legitimate as long as she finds ways to give you the hint in a way you understand.

But, like some of the guys who write about the Dom/s life, I will tell you that the more you teach her that sex is good and pleasurable and that its ok to be "slutty" with YOU, the more likely SHE will be to initiate.

For example, some women initiate in really stupid ways. Like changing in front of you while wearing matching bra and panties. Like, we are in HS or something? That doesn't tell me ANYTHING...

while others wake you up with a blowjob.

like all things, there are degrees of what each person can or will do.

[–]Red-Curious[S] 1 point2 points  (57 children) | Copy

some women initiate in really stupid ways

Yeah, the changing in front of me thing wouldn't communicate anything, and I definitely don't think my wife's trying to initiate that way ... but maybe I'm just ignorant. My wife's typical way of initiating is very defensive: "I'm not necessarily in the mood, but if you want to have sex I could be okay with it tonight." Once I get her going, it's great - but the initiation is so infrequent, weak, and fraught with ASD and "I need to minimize the potential pain of getting sexually rejected" ... it makes me wonder what's actually going on in her brain/libido/tingly area. To be fair, she does have days where I come home from work to lit candles and lingerie - but that's pretty darn rare. There are also days between these extremes.

I find that I'm initiating about 85% of the time (5/6). Even so, I read story after story here about guys who say their wives are coming onto them several times a week, bragging about getting her panties wet with a single word, etc. and I start to wonder how much of that is just BS male ego stroking from what legitimately happens ... or if they just happened to have found a spontaneous wife rather than a responsive one, yet are acting like all wives can and should be that way. I'm curious if the "she rarely initiates" is still common even for the men who have fully mastered RP.

To put it another way, although I don't doubt the effectiveness of RP methods themselves - I am living proof that they work ... but I am beginning to doubt the way some posters characterize the degree of effectiveness, telling extreme stories as if they're a daily occurrence (or should be) when maybe they're really only happening once every month or two, or other forms of exaggeration in the hopes of gaining acceptance by this community. After all, there's nothing men like to hear more than: "Here's a great sex story about all the slutty things my wife does - and here's how I got her to do them. If you do it, you can get your wife to be like that too."

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (39 children) | Copy

if you want to have sex I could be okay with it tonight."

wow. boner killer right there.

Honestly, a disgusted "don't do me any favors babe" is all that would get

as for the rest - look - there are all kinds of women and all kids of men in terms of what they will be comfortable with. In regards to wives initiating- every one of those men -f they did not start out with her there - will tell you about the significant amount of work it took.

Look, what are you ok with having? Because if you aren't ok with Mrs Curious The Christian not giving you unsolicited head you need to drop that expectation.

[–]Red-Curious[S] 0 points1 point  (38 children) | Copy

wow. boner killer right there

No kidding. Nevertheless, I take the MMSLP advice of accepting it anyway, otherwise I'm affirming her fear of getting rejected and training her not to initiate.

I used to take your approach and say, "Screw it, if you're not interested, I don't want it." The whole walk away from bad sex thing, but that is the reason I'm in this hole in the first place. From reading post after post, I'm seeing that rejecting the initiation is bad, rejecting her in the middle of bad sex is helpful. What I've found is that even with her crappy initiations, 5 minutes later she's as horny as I wish she had been 5 minutes ago. I'm just getting somewhat sick of the way sex starts - either I do all the heavy lifting or put up with her garbage initiation style.

drop that expectation

Yeah, I've dropped any expectation of oral years ago. Not sure if you were there for my first ever MRP post, but reading RP for the first few days brought that expectation back. Then I quickly learned that (1) I can't make it happen and (2) if it is going to happen, it's not going to happen if I'm pining over it like a beta. So, I went back into DNGAF mode about it.

every one of those me ... will tell you about the significant amount of work it took ... Look, what are you ok with having?

I think I'm just really trying to figure out if a day will come when having a healthy sex life isn't so much work.

[–]470_2_700_nm0 points1 point  (10 children) | Copy

I found it came when I was under 12% body fat. I feel like I'm just getting started.

It took a few months while she drew herself in and shortened the 1000 ft rope. Maybe it's 500 ft right now I don't really know.

[–]Red-Curious[S] 0 points1 point  (9 children) | Copy

Good to know. I've been hovering at about 15% for the last month. One good cut diet and I'm sure I could be there, but I've been following the fitness advice not to cut calories while I continue to gain muscle mass. I was told to keep bulking until my bench was at least 300 ... I'm only at about 275 so far.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (6 children) | Copy

I think I'm just really trying to figure out if a day will come when having a healthy sex life isn't so much work.

the answer is maybe. At what point are you going to walk away if it is? or are you going to just accept it? If you are willing to accept it, accept it now. If not, give yourself a deadline.

[–]Red-Curious[S] 0 points1 point  (5 children) | Copy

Good point. Given that my wife is still breastfeeding, so her body agenda is working against me (i.e. hormones are trying to avoid getting pregnant again), I'd be idiotic to accept it now. But I'll certainly re-evaluate 3 months after breastfeeding ends.

[–]justpickanyusernameRed Beret0 points1 point  (11 children) | Copy

Yeah, I've dropped any expectation of oral years ago

Fellow conservative Christian with as prude and sexually inexperienced wife as any here. Has your wife ever performed oral on you? This is not a humble brag because my blowjob count is the extraordinarily high number of two. Both happened in the last 30 days, but I have RP to thank for it. I'm no RP expert, but my wife had never done oral before in her life. What worked for me was to just start going down on her more frequently with no expectations. I learned that I enjoy it for myself. Don't do it with a covert contract to have her ever reciprocate. It just opens up that you are okay with mouths and genitals.

If you want oral as part of the menu you need to create a comfortable sexual environment for it to happen. This is one big RP truth that I have learned since I started to combat her ASD. Also, you need to have a raised SMV and be the attractive kind of guy that random girls would love to blow. She may have any number of hangups and reservations. Even her way of initiating shows that she is afraid to go out on a limb sexually. This will also take quite some time if the majority of the marriage has been this way.

[–]Red-Curious[S] 0 points1 point  (10 children) | Copy

9 years of marriage and never once, although I can't say I've pushed the issue. She made it clear early on: "I will never."

That said, I do get turned on by the thought of giving her oral ... but that's a hard no for her too. I discovered that hard no when I tried it for the first time last year. I was shocked because licking her inner thigh makes her go bonkers. She has a clear and openly communicated mental block of viewing genitalia as always dirty, both physically (i.e. slimy, gross) and morally.

She can't even say the word vagina. Instead she says "my butt hole" and hopes I know which hole she's taking about at any given time. This does make for some good flirtatious banter, of course ... but that's beside the point.

Either way, thanks for the insights. If it happens, it happens, but not getting BJs isn't a hard next issue for me.

[–]BluepillProfessorMod / Red Beret0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

I'm just really trying to figure out if a day will come when having a healthy sex life isn't so much work.

You mean with this particular woman? I doubt it.

[–]Red-Curious[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Then so be it.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

Yeah, this is pretty normal in my opinion. My wife often initiates in ways that are defensive like that. She'll put on a cute outfit and walk around like no big deal, I'll make a comment and she'll be like "oh, I mean, if you want to fuck we can." Like she's doing me a favor? I personally don't care. She's opening herself up the only way she knows how. Part of that is simply because she's insecure and afraid of rejection. Part of that is because she knows I expect sex and is initiating more to please me than to please herself. Who cares! She's making herself sexually available, and if she performs well during the act itself, how it started shouldn't really matter.

The more you improve the better her initiations will become. My wife has become way more fun and bold in the way she initiates, but she's still pretty timid about it. That's just who they are.

[–]Red-Curious[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Thanks. This is helpful.

[–]BluepillProfessorMod / Red Beret0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

it makes me wonder what's actually going on in her brain

You are better off worrying what is going on inside her vagina than in her brain.

Once inside a woman's heart

A man must keep his head

Heaven opens up the door

Where angels fear to tread

Some men go crazy, some men go slow

Some men go just where they want

Some men never go

[–][deleted] -1 points0 points  (11 children) | Copy

You forgot the possibility that the sort of guy who tells ego stroking stories has a wife who knows that sex with that guy is about stroking his ego.

Even here you sound super judgy with a holy attitude about sex which is not surprising given your religious indoctrination. You're just replacing the madonna/whore thing with responsive/spontaneous instead.

Get out of your wife's head and learn to just have fun naked. You're seem far too serious about religion to enjoy sex. There are no Madonnas, whores or sluts. They're just women. Unfortunately, the answers you need are very much not found in the Bible.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

You're just replacing the madonna/whore thing with responsive/spontaneous instead.


[–]Red-Curious[S] 0 points1 point  (9 children) | Copy

I'm not sure where you're picking up the M-H complex or a "super judgy holy attitude about sex." What did I say that led you to see this?

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (8 children) | Copy

It's that you're so try-hard about it all. That you're even looking to get into her head to decide whether why she wants to have sex with you is acceptable. Unless you're coercing her it's none of your business. You're not letting her be herself. Sex with you is clearly an obligation and you're trying to figure out how to make it a more demanding obligation. If you're looking onto responsive desire, you better be reading "Come As You Are" which covers that in depth also goes into the dual controls model. You're trying to overpower turn offs and that's why you're killing yourself with effort.

Edit: You're here from DB right? Have you read the "Extraordinary Passion" blogspot? You need to get that entire thing in your head. Sorry, but the answer is your bedroom sucks because your mentality is fucked up. Have you at least read SGM?

[–]Red-Curious[S] 0 points1 point  (7 children) | Copy

If you're looking onto responsive desire, you better be reading "Come As You Are" which covers that in depth

Heh, another guy just said not to waste my time - that it's good, but nothing useful for men.

You're trying to overpower turn offs and that's why you're killing yourself with effort.

It's not so much effort in life - I've got a happy balance there. I'm just not interested in initiating anymore. I suppose that's just a fact of life I'll have to accept and deal with, though.

You're here from DB right?

Nah, didn't head over there until after discovering RP and getting sex back on track. I mostly go there to practice identifying problems and figuring out which solutions apply so that when my wife inevitably pulls something on me, it's nothing I haven't seen before.

"Extraordinary Passion" blogspot? You need to get that entire thing in your head.

Haven't heard of it. Will check it out :)

your bedroom sucks because your mentality is f-ed up

The bedroom is fine as long as I'm willing to do all of the initiation and ignore her weak, libido-killing attempts at initiating. We have sex regularly, and 5 minutes into sex it's pretty darn great - mutually (and I have good reason to trust her on that). It's the initiation of sex that's the problem. As I realized through some of these comments, it's most likely that I'm looking for validation from her and if I have to do all the initiating or her initiation is weak, I don't get that.

Have you at least read SGM?

That one is next on my list. I originally understood that it was more about technique in the bed itself, which has never been a problem for us (again, the first 5 minutes being the exception). So, I left it alone and went for all the other stuff on the list. That may actually be the only thing on the sidebar I haven't read yet :p

[–]sh0ckley0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

some women initiate in really stupid ways.

Indirect ways. The ASD is real. Once I uncovered the stupid/indirect ways that mine initiates I was able to yield more dividends.

I'm kind of an idiot tho and over time have learned that mine is not even very indirect - other women are probably more indirect. This is probably why I've leaned toward natural sluts to compensate for my tendency toward idiocy. Mine will sometimes jut bust out with "wanna fuck?"

[–]BluepillProfessorMod / Red Beret0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

it's okay if a woman never initiates or shows spontaneous desire for her husband.

Yes. The data and reports on this are overwhelming. Feminine energy is receptive. Masculine energy is purposeful. A woman can respond to your advances without shutting them down and without saying "No" and that is really the best we can hope for I believe.

If a woman "takes the initiative" then she is using "masculine energy" not feminine energy.

[–]Red-Curious[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Interesting. I haven't heard it characterized that way, but it makes sense. From what I recall, the spontaneous desire comes from testosterone, which is a predominantly male hormone. Although women have testosterone, it's in lower quantities and can only operate in the woman when working in tandem with estrogen. So, it makes sense to say that the "take initiative" concept comes from "masculine energy" - that energy literally being testosterone, whereas "masculine energy" (testosterone) only increases a woman's sexual desire when there is estrogen to "receive" it (as you say "Feminine energy is receptive"). Studies show that excess testosterone without sufficient estrogen to receive and process it will actually lower a woman's sex drive ... interesting (sorry if this is a weird comment: reporting results as I research it).

[–]BluepillProfessorMod / Red Beret4 points5 points  (1 child) | Copy

I won't have any sexual desire for you until you get me in the mood.

Women have responsive desire and it is the man's job to fire up that desire.

However, the problem is we have been told completely wrong how to light the fire of desire. We have been told to be "nice" and to "buy her things" and be "romantic" and "listen to her." None of that works!

[–]Red-Curious[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy


[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (23 children) | Copy

Sounds like someone has been reading Come As You Are. Decent book for understanding female biology and sexual functions but there isn't much practical advice in there for men. To your question:

Spontaneous in this context I believe means: you get horny out of the blue. A man can be sitting in church and all of sudden want to fuck. Thus, sexual arousal happens spontaneously. It rarely happens with most females but it does happen.

Responsive in this context I believe means: some external variable caused you to get honey. A man gets a boner when he sees a woman's cleavage. Or, a woman encounters Chad and gets tingles.

Everyone is a mix of both, but as individuals we all tend to skew one way or the other. I am more spontaneous, my wife is more responsive (as tends to be the case for men and women). And of course, this fluctuates a great deal for any given individual over time as they pass through different life stages. I'm less spontaneous now than I was 10 years ago.

All in all, I think this is a scientifically valid premise that does not conflict with RP teachings.

The rub is that you simply have to be desirable to fuck a woman that is primarily responsive. No amount of mood lighting or dirty talk is gonna do shit if you yourself are unattractive.

[–]Red-Curious[S] 0 points1 point  (22 children) | Copy

Never heard of the book, but I appreciate your brief review.

I think this is a scientific valid premise that does not conflict with RP teachings.

Good to know.

So, is it okay if a wife says, "Sorry honey, but I guess I'm just a responsively sexual person, so don't ever expect me to initiate"?

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

Is it okay with me? Yes. I don't mind being the one to lead her into sexy times. Putting her in the mood is half the fun sometimes anyway. Even though she'll surprise me and make the first move, it's rare compared to how much I initiate. If I want to fuck I make it known.

Is it okay with everyone? Probably not. Only you get to decide what you're okay with.

[–]Idunnowhy21 point2 points  (19 children) | Copy

Like you said in another comment, you are seeking validation, which you think means spontaneous desire from your wife. There's a reason for that.

She will NEVER initiate from a cold start. She will initiate if you get her revved up, directly or indirectly. Being high SMV is indirect, which appears to be spontaneous. So you are wanting your wife to validate your SMV, which obviously isn't high enough. Raise it.

Being fun, playfully sexual, and escalating is direct / responsiveness. Nothing wrong with this. But like you also said, a lack of sex is not a problem, so this isn't what you need to get better at.

[–]Red-Curious[S] 0 points1 point  (18 children) | Copy

Being high SMV is indirect, which appears to be spontaneous. So you are wanting your wife to validate your SMV, which obviously isn't high enough. Raise it.

This makes sense. I'm just not sure where to go from here.

I'm 6'0, 15% BF, bench 275 (1-rep max), squat about 340, earn over $125k/yr, am generally good looking, witty, flirty, pull attention from other people, high social status (usually the default 'group leader' in whatever I do), primary caregiver to my kids, OYS all over the house (at least for the last 3 months). I could probably do with adding some male hobbies (other than lifting, racquetball and writing are my primary right now). I've read through all the levels of dread and don't see many weak spots other than my refusal actually to cheat on my wife. I feel like I'm tweaking strengths more than fixing weaknesses, and those small tweaks just aren't doing much. Someone else suggested getting to 12% BF, which I've been defraying for the purpose of gaining muscle mass ... otherwise, where would you recommend improving to get the most results?

Eh ... now that I think about it, fashion sense is probably one area I know I'm lacking. I wear suits and ties everyday to work, so when I'm home I usually just want to toss on something comfy. But is wearing nicer clothes really going to make that big of a difference?

[–]man_in_the_worldRed Beret1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy

I suspect that your frame is weak, and your neediness for external validation shows.

[–]PersaeusRed Beret0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

right here op. there are many ways to get there; but she knows you need her, knows you won't leave her, and knows you won't cheat on her. dread level NOT

[–]straius0 points1 point  (10 children) | Copy

Have you openly discussed her fantasies and got her to open up about her internal kink yet? Sub 12% BF is also really the golden place to be to garner universal attention but as is oft repeated here, nothing is guaranteed.

[–]Red-Curious[S] 0 points1 point  (9 children) | Copy

I've tried ... haven't gotten very far. Her usual response is, "I don't know what I want" and that's pretty darn believable coming from a girl. It's usually followed by, "What's wrong with what we've been doing?" Over time I've gotten her to be open to whipped cream, handcuffs, blindfold, rope ... She hasn't cared for any of that yet, but she does like when I'm physically laying on top of her in missionary ("I like the pressure") and when I lick her thighs, but oral on her is a hard no.

[–]straius0 points1 point  (8 children) | Copy

The fantasies are there even if they're buried (She may even tell herself she doesn't have any). She likely is ok with that stuff because she wants to please you but can't allow herself to surrender to any of her own passions so you probably never feel her "get into it." Might be shame with pleasure, shame with her body, but there's something going on there that is going to take some work (and a lot of patience) to root out.

Working on getting her to express her sexuality more freely and creating an open environment for that to happen will be more important than changes in your body, your fashion, all the other objective things (They're important too and I would still treat that as prerequisites). Her blocker is probably not attraction so those tools will only carry you so far. The rest is going to be a long process.

I don't have any direct recommendations I could make but looking for resources about battling repressed sexuality may be beneficial. I really doubt it's an issue of asexuality. A therapist or sex therapist might be able to help point you in the direction of resources to that end.

[–]Red-Curious[S] 0 points1 point  (7 children) | Copy

The fantasies are there even if they're buried

I totally believe this. I'm contemplating going for a PhD in psychology to complement my law degree (do court forensic work that way), at which point I'd love to concentrate on marriage counseling and sex therapy - primarily for my own benefit, but also to nudge others along in a direction that 99% of other counselors would reject. I'd have a nice niche among men that doesn't exist in very many places.

probably never feel her "get into it."

That's the thing, though. Once she's revved up she's begging for my touch, saying things like, "How do you get me to feel that way? I didn't even know that was possible." Of course, this is also some of my problem, which I noticed when first reading NMMNG: Nice Guys are so giving/others-centered in the sack that it trains their wives to ignore the need to rev up their husbands, so the man ends up being less than satisfied. Even so, my biggest fetish is watching a woman orgasm, so when she climaxes that about does it for me, hence my still enjoying it even if most of the work is by me on her ... but her trying to please/edge me every now and then would be nice too. Sorry, that might be too much TMI, but them's be the facts.

something going on there

Completely agreed - and I'm not yet equipped to handle it myself. I've tried encouraging her to counseling, but I'm also very skeptical about the feminism that runs rampant among most counselors, and I doubt she's be willing to talk to a male counselor about her sexual issues (nor would I want her to - that's just spelling "cheat on me!" with my own blood).

open environment

What are your suggestions for cultivating this? I've tried to be playful/direct in the past. I'd make a game out of it, where we'd ask each other personal questions and I'd wait until the 4th or 5th round of questions to ask about sexual stuff. That has not worked. I've tried pulling out a naughty board game we got for our wedding years ago. Didn't work. I thought about blindfolding her and taking her to an adult store just to show her: "Nothing you have to say is going to scare me off," but I'm guessing that'd be way too much too fast.

I don't have any direct recommendations I could make

Heh, should have read ahead :p

looking for resources about battling repressed sexuality may be beneficial

I actually never thought about this. I was always so focused on improving myself (especially since finding RP - and before that I was too beta to think that the almighty woman needed to improve) that I hadn't really thought to look into psychological resources on sexual repression. Thanks for the tip :)

[–]straius0 points1 point  (6 children) | Copy

I've had luck with DBT/CBT therapists rooted in existential. Ecclectic is also a good thing to look for since it means they use multiple schools of thought for treatment. What you want to avoid are therapists using the Gottman method. That's the "talking about feelings" method that's heavily feminized.

I found an RP aware male counselor and also a female sex therapist that was very into stoicism, also was cbt/existential. The nice thing about CBT/DBT is that they're strategy/solution focused so there's a bit more of a utilitarian approach that tends to yield better results.

It's possible that you may be falling into a classic dude "try hard" hole where your approach to fostering an open environment for sex talk involves too much setup. It can be more casual where you focus on talking or describing things she likes sexually, whether it's a response to something on TV or what have you. The goal is to invite her into the verbal game and get her to participate. I'd have to know more to give specific examples, but let's say she finds women attractive, play games at the mall where you basically try to have her point out a girl she thinks is attractive. Then you can point one out "yeah, I'd watch her go down on you all night." Then have her pick another... etc... Make games out of it.

Then try again to get her to reveal fantasies if things become more casually open to sex talk.

Basically lead by example. But I have no idea what your wife would respond to, obviously, so you'd have to find those things. Sex shop is probably a bad idea since it's a public space. But who knows, sexual repression can be oddly compartmentalized sometimes.

I've had good results with my wife with a single couples session with the sex therapist I mentioned above, which was after we both had individual sessions, but we were also at the breaking point and I was about to start the process of divorce and she knew it wasn't some blow off. That's about the point when my own wife finally started pulling more weight. Not that you will need the same, everyone's dynamic is somewhat unique to them of course.

[–]Red-Curious[S] 0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy

Good stuff. Thanks for the input! I've thought about making sex talk a more common, casual thing in the hope that it would drop her defenses a bit, but my efforts have mostly been in the form of AA, flirtatious stuff directed at her rather than conversation with her. That's probably a psychological defense mechanism in me, but I'll work on it.

[–]Red-Curious[S] 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

Psychological conversation in mind ... as a curious idea, what would be your thought on getting a bottle of placebo pills, telling her it's some KY-type product and seeing what the placebo effect does? I've never been much into the "fix her" mentality in the first place (as you say, it's more about "lead her"), but I've always been an experimenter of people.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

I can really feel your pain here. You have done everything you can, sounds to me like you absolutely have maxed your SMV. Cutting to 12% will not be a magic bullet, it is just gilding the lily. I am going to send you a PM as I think I can help. Even if we don't get the answer you are hoping for, I'm sure we can help unpack these issues better.

[–]Red-Curious[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

I appreciate that!

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

This makes sense. I'm just not sure where to go from here.

none of that matters but it does.

you seem to be using it as "well I am THIS GOOD - she should want me by now"

unfortunately when we say up your SMV, we mean to women, not to woman.

statistics matter.

[–]Red-Curious[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Good point.

[–]Idunnowhy20 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

"primary caregiver to my kids" is low SMV. You also obviously have a very weak frame.

Getting to 12% bf & improving your fashion sense might help a little, but these are inconsequential compared to Frame Control.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

RP seems to assume women are naturally spontaneous but become responsive when their man goes beta and they no longer desire him. Then, when they spot a higher value man who shows IOIs, they become spontaneous again. Ideally this is her husband becoming that higher-value man.

Most women (effectively all women) are responsive an overwhelming majority of the time. What you describe here isn't a woman switching to becoming the spontaneous type; what you're describing is that she is responsive to those IOIs or when her husband becomes a higher-value man. Your blind spot here is that you don't yet understand what it is they are responding to, despite your plethora of long-ass diatribes of varying value in virtually every post your comment on.

[–]anythingincRed Beret1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy

Came across this the other day. I think it ties a lot of things together, it covers a lot of familiar ground with a lot of explanatory power. Apparently there are a few other models of arousal as well that may be applicable.


The following are all quotations but will be in normal format for legibility, I urge everyone to check out the article, the figures are especially interesting. After reading, I think it clarifies the MRP recognition of the problems and why it works as far as it relates to your sex life with your wife. Potentially, at least initially, we get lots sex spontaneously, to fulfill her sexual desires and in order for her to fulfill her needs for intimacy and bonding with this new person. We get a lot of responsive sex too, she recognizes a need to be sexual with us, and it is easy for her to "choose" to experience it with us. I like that the author (Rosemary B.) defines "excitement" as "(Stimulus Appreciation - Distractions etc...).

As the relationship progresses we become less and less someone she can feel spontaneous desire for, and by the very nature of an LTR might experience less and less sexual desire, plus her "intimacy needs" are already met (or we don't have enough trust, intimacy, the ability to be vulnerable, respect, communication, affection, or she doesn't want that from us) and the distractions are higher so it is easy for her to choose not to respond to our desire.

A man following MRP removes distractions by owning his shit, starts becoming someone she could feel spontaneous desire towards again with increasing his SMV and passing tests, and inspires her via various methods to begin choosing to respond to our desire again for well-being, intimacy, sexual satisfaction, and satisfying her partner, and being a good lover to help build these positive feedback loops. We need to always be initiating and gaming to create these opportunities for her, and she chooses to respond for the "rewards." It is all very multi-faceted.

This article describes a model for women’s sexual response that appears to be a more accurate representation of their experiences—especially in longer term relationships than those afforded by the traditional human sex-response cycle

A stronger recognition that women’s sexual response more commonly stems from intimacy needs rather than a need for physical sexual arousal leads to an alternative understanding of women’s sexual desire and, hence, to different definitions of hypoactive desire...

Difficulties encountered while applying the Masters and Johnson model of sexuality, even with the inclusion of an initial sexual desire phase when addressing women’s sexual response, have been well described. Both Leiblum (1998) and Tiefer (1991) stressed that the focus on genital responses and traditional indicators of desire, including sexual fantasies and a need to self-stimulate, ignores major components of women’s sexual satisfaction: trust, intimacy, the ability to be vulnerable, respect, communication, affection, and pleasure from sensual touching. The absence of these components, according to the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, 4th edition (DSM–IV) (American Psychological Association, 1994), which relies heavily on the traditional human sex response cycle, is apparently unimportant. Consequently, studies on women’s sexuality in health and disease rarely include these aspects. These authors also identify the frequent overlap of dysfunctions, especially female sexual arousal disorder (FSAD) with hypoactive sexual desire disorder (HSDD) or FOD.

Masters and Johnson studied those women who were not only willing to be observed in a laboratory setting but who were orgasmic with inter- course (Masters & Johnson, 1966). The classic sex-response cycle thus was based on one small subset of women, [and works for men]...

However, four fundamental aspects of women’s sexuality in health underlie the need for a different model.

  • First, compared to men whose responses are influenced more by testosterone (Bancroft, 1989), women have a lower biological urge to be sexual for release of sexual tension.

  • Second, women’s motivation (or willingness) to have a sexual experience stems from a number of “rewards” or “gains” that are not strictly sexual, these rewards being additional to, and often of far more relevance than, the women’s biological neediness or urge. These rewards are not irrelevant to men but may less often be the major motivational force. To some degree, men experience their desire as independent of context—often choosing to use the word “drive.”

  • Third, women’s sexual arousal is a subjective mental excitement that may or may not be accompanied by awareness of vasocongestive changes in her genitalia and other physical nongenital manifestations of arousal. If there is genital awareness, it may or may not be an erotic stimulus to the woman.

  • Fourth, orgasmic release of sexual tension may or may not occur; when it does, it can happen in a variety of ways, even in the one woman.

The traditional model for the human sex response cycle can be represented as Desire -> arousal -> orgasm -> resolution (Kaplan, 1979; Masters & Johnson, 1966). Women often relate to this model at the beginning of a new relationship. In the setting of a long-term relationship (some women experience a change within one year and others after a few years; the change often is coincident with increased distractions and fatigue associated with having children), the situation is often rather different (see Figure 1).

Sensing an opportunity to be sexual, the partner’s neediness, or an awareness of one or more potential benefits or rewards that are very important to them (but not necessarily sexual), women move from a sexual neutrality to seeking stimuli necessary to ignite sexual desire. This sexual desire would be experienced as a craving for sexual sensations for their own sake, it also might involve a desire to experience physical and subjective arousal and perhaps release of sexual tension. Sexual desire then is a responsive rather than spontaneous event. The woman may at other times experience spontaneous desire in the form of sexual thoughts, sexual dreams, and fantasies, but at the time of the onset of a given partner experience, she is likely to be at “baseline.” Many women who are sexually functional and satisfied do not have the conventional markers of spontaneous sexual desire.

Thus, for many women, it would appear that sexual arousal and a responsive-type of desire occur simultaneously at some point after the women have chosen to experience sexual stimulation; this choice is based initially on needs other than a desire to experience physical sexual arousal and release. Further arousal follows, generating a focus upon which to build to potential orgasm. Physical well-being may follow without orgasmic release. The rewards of emotional closeness—the increased commitment, bonding, and tolerance of imperfections in the relationship—together with an appreciation of the subsequent well-being of the partner all serve as the motivational factors that will activate the cycle next time. Any of those potential rewards may be effective alone, or they may sometimes be accompanied by a physical sexual neediness or hunger (i.e., the traditional model may sometimes be accurate in situations of partner separation, typically after some days or weeks apart). This alternative model for women in longer-term relationships can be represented as Figure 2.

This different model of women’s sexual response argues that it is both the absence of the markers of spontaneous desire and the inability to experience any responsive desire (which usually coincides with some early arousal) to sexual cues and triggers of any sort that constitutes true Hypoactive Sexual Desire Disorder.

Granted, this is from 2000, and it appears she has updated a little as of 2008: http://www.arhp.org/publications-and-resources/clinical-fact-sheets/female-sexual-response

The figure looks similar but simplified and clarified.

According to Basson, women have many reasons for engaging in sexual activity other than sexual hunger or drive, as the traditional model suggests. Although many women may experience spontaneous desire and interest while in the throes of a new sexual relationship or after a long separation from a partner, most women in long-term relationships do not frequently think of sex or experience spontaneous hunger for sexual activity [granted most men suck and there is a lot of individual variation]. In these latter cases, Basson suggests that a desire for increased emotional closeness and intimacy or overtures from a [valuable/sexy/shit-test passing] partner may predispose a woman to participate in sexual activity. From this point of sexual neutrality—where a woman is receptive to being sexual but does not initiate sexual activity—the desire for intimacy prompts her to seek ways to become sexually aroused via conversation, music, reading or viewing erotic materials, or direct stimulation [or risky behavior, or making overtures towards a valuable man, etc..]. Once she is aroused, sexual desire emerges and motivates her to continue the activity. On the road to satisfaction, there are many points of vulnerability that may derail or distract a woman from feeling sexually fulfilled. The Basson model clarifies that the goal of sexual activity for women is not necessarily orgasm but rather personal satisfaction [hypergamy?], which can manifest as physical satisfaction (orgasm) and/or emotional satisfaction (a feeling of intimacy and connection with a partner [who is satisfying somehow]).

Again, a goal of MRP is to handle distractions, and be a man she desires orgasms and/or intimacy/closeness from.

[–]Red-Curious[S] 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

This is good stuff. I'll try to get to the full article soon. Thanks for sharing this!

[–]BobbyPeru0 points1 point  (11 children) | Copy

I think you're overthinking it. If you get a sexual vibe, start escalating. But , always kino and sexual comments.

[–]Red-Curious[S] 0 points1 point  (10 children) | Copy

I understand this mentality, but that's not what I was asking about and that doesn't address the reason for my question.

[–]BobbyPeru0 points1 point  (9 children) | Copy

Fair enough What is the reason then, for context?

[–]Red-Curious[S] 0 points1 point  (8 children) | Copy

Originally, it was a purely theoretical question based on an excuse I see made on r/deadbedrooms a lot. Although my bedroom is far from dead, the things I read there still intrigue me.

Your response presumed I was having trouble getting my wife to have sex with me, as is the normal problem on here. This isn't a problem I have anymore.

What I did realize as a result of this post, though, is that I had a subconscious problem of wanting validation from my wife through her initiation of sex - desiring me enough that she would be more spontaneous and not be so heavily responsive. This is probably why those particular conversions in r/db sparked my interest.

That said, I think the answer to my original question is clear: the responsive/spontaneous dichotomy is legit and should be embraced to some degree. I just happened to get more than I bargained for when making this post.

[–]BobbyPeru0 points1 point  (7 children) | Copy

Yeah I think DB uses band-aid solutions. That's why RP is so much more effective. It's long term solutions rather than just trying to treat a symptom

[–]Red-Curious[S] 0 points1 point  (6 children) | Copy

Does db even offer solutions at all? I get the impression their only solution is divorce.

[–]BobbyPeru0 points1 point  (5 children) | Copy

Band-aid solutions, which really aren't solutions

Any theory that only seeks to treat symptoms only is counterfeit - therefore, DB is counterfeit.

[–]Red-Curious[S] 0 points1 point  (4 children) | Copy

I've just never seen even bandaid solutions there ... only divorce. The closest to a suggestion has been: "Say something mean and snarky back to show them how mad you are anger maybe they'll get it."

[–]BobbyPeru0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

I think you're missing the point. Going straight to divorce is a band-aid solution.

DB is about as BP as it gets

[–]Red-Curious[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

Ah, gotcha.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

Yeah that's why you need to read "Extraordinary Passion" and everything she's written. The author is a trained scientist LL who decided to take on understanding and resolving the problem. She's also been an active redditor on DB from time to time with a number of gilded posts on DB and across reddit. The overlap between DB and sexover30 a different solution-focused subset of DB. The advice on DB sidebar etc is actually very good and there are people who have worked things out. Most DBers are lazy and don't read the sidebar material.

And one of the first links in the DB sidebar is a flowchart showing the flow of things so saying that divorce is all they've got shows your ignorance. Divorce is one exit that's easy to obtain. But if you can't engage your partner and shed the battle mentality it's what you've got.

But seriously dude your wife is nursing and I'd wager she's not sleeping through the night. Stress kills sex. Chill.

[–]Red-Curious[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Thanks for all the info. I'll definitely check it out. As I said, I'm not on DB much since I don't technically have a DB. We have regular sex that's pretty good ... It's mostly the first 5 minutes of trying to get her revved up that I'm sick of dealing with. Going to DB has more been about practicing spotting RP issues and how to answer them so I'm ready if/when the time comes.

Wife does sleep through the night though, I make sure of that. I keep the baby with me until about 3am every night and she doesn't wake up again for another feeding until 730 or so. Wife goes to bed at 9 or 10, so she gets about 9-10 hours of uninterrupted sleep a night. She has her own other issues though.

[–]FlyingSexistPig0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

There are lots of things that you can read that confuse the issue. They try to make it complicated and subtle; something to be pored over.

If she's into you, it's probably all the time. If she's not into you most of the time, then there's a problem, something you need to work on. Focus on you, not on her. You lead. She follows.

That's it.

[–]screechhaterRed Beret0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy

Most husbands are "chore zoned". That's just above "friend zoned".

It's blatant as fuck that less than 12% BF small growth on the face and decent dress with some confidence gets s woman's motor running.

I'm the oldest father on my sons soccer team. I'm the fittest and masculine by far. All of the mothers, single or otherwise have given me their number. Many of them have knocked on my hotel door while traveling knowing that my son is im another's playing video games or on the town. I will not mention what happens. I'm a Christian, ya know

Sexual responsive is - give her an attractive man she can get a seed from and she will hamster the rest

My wife needs no foreplay She demands I get in her, like right fucking now. No pun intended

[–]Red-Curious[S] 0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy

chore zoned

Hah, I like that. I'm pretty good at rejecting this. I do the chores I want to do. She knows quite well that if she asks me to do a chore, my response is something like, "Hey, that's a great idea - you're right, that does need to get done. Mind handling that for me? Thanks, babe. You're the best!" Then I go off and do something else. She stopped asking me to do chores a while back, but mostly because I just get stuff done now and she knows I'm not going to put up with her nagging.

My wife needs no foreplay She demands I get in her, like right f-ing now

Heh, that'd be nice. For a long time my wife didn't like foreplay either. She demanded I get it over with right away. Haha. Seriously, though - sex is great now once we get started. I just have to tough it out for the first 5 minutes. The point of this post is that I now hate initiating because those first 5 minutes suck about 80% of the time (100% of the time she initiates and about 90% of the time I initiate).

[–]screechhaterRed Beret0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

"Chore zoned" as in fucking him, the husband is a chore to be done Therefore, not responding in a sexual manner

[–]Red-Curious[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Aaaah. That totally went over my head. I thought you meant "do this, do that, create perfect conditions for sex, then I'll think about it."

You can kill a man, but you can't kill an idea.

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