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by sixdownsevenup | June 11, 2017 | askMRP


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Two of the books in the reading list in r/marriedredpill are by Athol Kay. The one recommended for reading early in the reading list is The Married Man Sex Life Primer (MMSLP). The other one is later in the reading list and is titled The Mindful Attraction Plan (TMAP). Each of the books outlines a “plan” that covers a sequence of changes on how to look at relationships and yourself. Each plan has seven phases, but the overall focus is not the same between the two books.

In MMSLP, Kay calls the plan “The Male Action Plan” (MAP). The primary focus is to work on yourself to improve your relative “Sexual Market Value” or “Sex Rank”. The idea is that as you make genuine improvements to yourself, you increase your Sex Rank relative to your wife or LTR. The timeline for this plan varies, but depends on how long it takes you to increase your Sex Rank. The concept of Dread is not really directly discussed in the way that we have seen it explained by u/BluepillProfessor in The 12 Step Plan of Dread which is an excerpt from his book Saving a low sex marriage: A Man's Guide to Dread, Seduction, and the Long Game. Nevertheless, implicit in the MAP from MMSLP is that by increasing your Sex Rank you are increasing your attractiveness to all women, including your wife or LTR which is a form of Dread.

In TMAP the plan is called “The Mindful Attraction Plan”. That plan is oriented towards relationships in general, and is applicable to males or females. Kay’s approach in this MAP is to focus on “energy”. As in the MMSLP MAP, Kay emphasizes that the TMAP focuses on making changes for yourself that move in in a better direction. And that despite what may be substantial improvements in critical areas in your life, other people in your life may not recognize or value those changes. But, in general, those improvements will lead to better relationships because you are a better person with whom to have a relationship - whether it is romantic, work, etc.

This post is a result of me wanting to integrate aspects of both MMSLP and TMAP into my “master” MAP. And also reconcile my MAP timeline with the The 12 Step Plan of Dread. A quick overview of me for those not inclined to review my history: I am 49, 210lb, 20% BF, 6’1”, married 22 years. Have been aware of MMSLP for a couple years, and started choking on the pill Jan 1. Have read the prereq (NMMNG several times), as well as TMAP, 16CoP, BoP, 48 Laws of Power and Day Bang. Have been OYS until having a major setback several weeks back. That setback is what set me on the course to review and remake my MAP and get back to owning my shit.

MMSLP and TMAP both lay out 7 phases in their action plan. Here is a side by side comparison along with the implied “Dread Level”:

Phase MMSLP TMAP Dread Length
1 Lift, reading Get “Red” Energy Areas under control Dread Levels 1 & 2 Will take some time (until within 5-10% of ideal weight)
2 Initiating Sex & Game Work on “Yellow” Areas, Ask for what you want, learn to say no Dread Levels 1,2 & 3 As long as required (Up to a year or longer)
3 Upgrade Clothing & Appearance Appearance & State Intentions Dread Level 4-5 2 months MMSLP, 3-6 months TMAP
4 State Intentions Clearly Act on Intentions Dread Level 9 1 week
5 Start Distancing Withdraw Support Dread Level 6-8 As long as required
6 Ultimatum Ultimatum Dread Level 10 Days
7 New Life (Wife?) Life without “Energy Vampire” Dread Level 11-12 As Long as Required

A couple of interesting points. First, while both MAPS generally line up with overall themes, the mapping to dread is not sequential or perfect. This is something that sort of threw me off in my attempts to draft out a plan. In fact, when I started in January, I was just following the Dread levels, and never really wrote out a MAP. I sort of had one in the sense that my OYS posts had some structure. Second, MMSLP is very focused on improvements in sex rank and getting sex and intimacy needs met for men - while TMAP is focused on improving “Energy” ( I read “Energy” as outlook) and is focused on relationships of all sorts.

What does this all mean? Well, for me I think that the Dread Level outline is actually a more practical timeline, and it is logically sequential. If I am being totally honest with myself, I am still at Dread Level 1 & 2 at 5 months in so realistically still in Phase 1 of either MAP. My reformulated MAP will be based on the Dread Levels, while pulling in tidbits from the two Athol Kay books. I need to get real with myself about where I am at right now so I know what my jumping off point will be on my reworked MAP.

I know this is a little bit spergie and rambling (so, probably best put here on r/askMRP), but I am curious as to how others created their MAP. Did you write it out all at once before you started? Winged it? Wrote it out as you went along? Did you base on MMSLP, TMAP or Dread - or a combination? Other thoughts?

Post Information
Title MAP vs. MAP
Author sixdownsevenup
Upvotes 14
Comments 33
Date 11 June 2017 01:15 AM UTC (3 years ago)
Subreddit askMRP
Link https://theredarchive.com/post/206022
Original Link https://old.reddit.com/r/askMRP/comments/6gitt4/map_vs_map/
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[–]donedreadpirateRed Beret9 points10 points  (9 children) | Copy

My only problem with the 12 levels is that I don't think you should wait that long to start dressing nice and looking your best. Even if you're fat, one of the quickest gains you can make is dressing better, smelling better and getting your damn hair cut. Your wife might not care as much, if you do it early on, but who cares? Tackle the low lying fruit.

[–]sixdownsevenup[S] 2 points3 points  (8 children) | Copy

I agree - low-lying fruit and some easy wins are good to have. Although I think that it is natural that even when starting out that men will naturally address their appearance and maybe hygiene at the beginning anyway.

That said, I think that it is a RP truism that appearance doesn't matter as much as being able to handle shit tests and comfort tests. And, of course, lifting is a long lead-time activity to results, so starting that immediately is important, as is having some sort of plan. So, from that perspective I think I understand calling that out as a focus a little later.

[–][deleted] 7 points8 points  (7 children) | Copy

The delay is because most guys will lose a lot of weight, waiting until you do to buy clothes prevents you from doing it twice

[–]A_RexRED KNIGHT1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy

I think the delay is a mistake - just don't go Rambo o the wardrobe until you're at the goal. Get a few pices that work really well for right now, and rotate the hell out of them. I've gone from 2XL shirts done to medium or small based on the brand, 40 waist to 32. At each point where the clothes started to look like shit, I'd get a few more new key pieces in the right size.

Helps with the confidence, hand in hand with the lifting. Hell, even when i started as a 260 lb fatass, I'd wear shirts that made me look like a fuckin bouncer. If ya got fat guy arms + lift, dress em up. You'll get noticed, you'll get IOIs.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

That's kind of the point to all this. If you have a deliberate reason to do something over another thing, then do it. Problem is, most people don't have a plan, they are winging it. So you have to develop a fucking paint-by-numbers roadmap, so they can follow it until they get an idea what they are doing

[–]donedreadpirateRed Beret0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Ah right... not my case but makes sense.

[–]resolutions3160 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy

Yup - happened with me. Already replacing wardrobe for the second time.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy

Geez, and you're not even a year in yet, are you?

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

I had to do it twice as well. on my way to # 3. depends how fat you were when started

[–]resolutions3160 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Yeah - I really haven't lost that much weight, either. Pants still fit, with a new belt.

But part of it is that when you start to look better, you also start to realize that nothing you've ever worn actually FIT. I made the mistake of sizing down, but keeping all the bad habits I had from when I was just trying to hide my love handles.

[–]thunderbeyond2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

I'm also new, and developing my MAP. I see the Dread levels 1 to 5 as the ones I can work on to improve myself. From 6 onwards they get more serious and seem a bit distant to me now. So I've set goals for myself in those first 5 areas. If I am habitually hitting those targets, I will be a much improved man. At that stage, if I don't see improvement in the marriage then I will set a plan for the higher dread levels.

So I've planned the MAP out for a fairly short term of 6 months. I will revisit the plan as things change. Thanks for the post, I'm also interested to hear how others bring it together.

[–]nmjanus3 points4 points  (1 child) | Copy

Thanks for this post. As you I have also been thinking of how this different plans correlate. To get it up in a table really helped visualize everything.

I have no idea how this applies to your situation, but for me I've been forced to spend a lot of time in the early stages. When discovering TRP I realized how much I had gotten backwards in life. Making me unattractive to both myself and my wife.

After initially applying some dread TRP moves, that off course backfired I found MRP and realized I had a long journey in front of me.

Today I see that being in my position, needy little boy with no frame, only made my lame attempts to apply dread look even more stupid.

I had to realize that to get any result I would have to rebuild a lot of my foundation and way of thinking. In the process I discovered that this is done for myself and not for my wife or even our relation. I hope it might pay of in a better relation I really do, but that's still not why I'm doing it.

I'm doing it because I don't want to waste my life. But also for my kids. There are so many things I want to teach them early that I discovers in my 40s...

I have based my MAP on TMAP with heavy emphasis on reading. Slowly building myself up. As of now my main ambition in my relation is not to back paddle.

I know it might sound like low ambition, but there is a reason. Where I earlier did not know about shit tests I myself did not recognize that I failed. I was just confused over women. So my first step was to see them and learn to distinguish them from reasonable requests and comfort test. In the beginning I could see them after they occurred and I had failed. Today I pretty much recognize them in realtime but unfortunately I still fail most, DEER-habits are hard to brake. And because feeling angry due to not passing shit-tests is not helping to address my biggest challenge now. Which is to be playful, fun and in a good mood I have decided on this temporary low goal.

Well, don't know if it was helpful, but this is where I'm at.

[–]matrixtospartanatLVRed Beret0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

I am a master at DEER.

I speak very well and think fast on my feet in conversation. So DEERing came almost spontaneously for me.


It works for me, and is the easiest to employ.

Really, just STFU

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (11 children) | Copy

I personally do not get the obsession with Athol Kay or Ian Ironwood. I read all their books and though there are some nuggets of useful information, I find them to be impractical. BluePillProfessor's Levels of Dread is far superior to anything those books have to say about fixing a dead bedroom, and neither of those two authors are specifically Redpill either. I think at the time this community was forming some structure those were the better books that were out. I support any plan that has the man going Monk Mode and working on himself for 1-2 years. The rest will work itself out as you progress through the 12 levels. I have seen it work over and over.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (4 children) | Copy

Really? I found theredpillroom.blogspot.caom to be the best red pill stuff on male social dynamics

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (3 children) | Copy

True, that was a good blog. I was referring to his Alpha moves book that gets recommended alot.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy

Yeah, im not a fan of it either. Then again, ive always been a Mystery guy

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

My wife made out with him and banged Neil back in her 20's so I feel connected to them y'know, spiritually. (True Story)

[–][deleted] 5 points6 points  (0 children) | Copy

Lol, neat!

Eskimo brothers

[–]sixdownsevenup[S] 0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy

I find this to ring true. There are some tactics in both books that are pretty good, but I am using the 12 levels as the basis for my MAP.

So, when you say Monk Mode - are you advocating a sex moratorium? Would be interested in you expanding on that statement. I have always seen Monk Mode as useful in specific circumstances, but not universally. (As an aside, I am considering a form of Monk Mode - although modified because of the kids)

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy

No absolutely not a sex moratorium. A moratorium on getting butthurt when rejected, but not a moratorium on initiating if you feel like it, and certainly not a moratorium if she wants to fuck. Be a man and fuck that bitch!

To unpack what I mean by Monk Mode, it is the practice of STFU while you consistently follow a Lifting and Nutrition plan in order to drop bodyfat and build lean muscle, Read through the sidebar materials, and rebuild your frame. Monk Mode means you don't talk about your feelings. You don't share your progress with your wife...ever. Don't talk about what you are GOING to do. Just STFU and do it. Be quiet and diligently do the work, that is the essence of what I mean by Monk Mode.

[–]sixdownsevenup[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

OK - that makes sense. Thanks for unpacking it.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

Well, to each their own. I find reading Ironwood to be... dunno like getting marriage advice from the Hardy Boys. My MAP (the one that works) is mostly Altol+Schnarch.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Which is funny. I found it to be the oppositte.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Really? I found theredpillroom.blogspot.caom to be the best red pill stuff on male social dynamics

[–]BluepillProfessorMod / Red Beret2 points3 points  (2 children) | Copy

Next time post a quality job like this on MRP. This is exceptional and not at all an AskMRP post. I really like the table and the analysis.

I thought the state intentions clearly stage needed to be later and done from a position of strength based on hundreds of posts and examples we had seen on both the MMSL boards and on MRP.

I also should have made more clear that the whole "dress up" was a stage that should and could be done earlier as part of your Level 2 MAP. the point of putting it at Level 5 was as a final attention getting- almost but not quite a Hail Mary- to get your wife's attention before beginning to study pickup game. I agree you begin paying attention to your appearance very early on but the idea of Level 5 was to upgrade your wardrobe and make a true WTF impact.

[–]bogeyd6Mod / Red Militia1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

Put it back in your pants big boy.

[–]sixdownsevenup[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Thanks - will do. Wasn't sure there was enough analysis in there for MRP.

[–]The_LitzRed Beret4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy

Before finding the red pill I was getting fed up at being a beta provider and rebelled. I applied dread, but it was very haphazardly and all over the place. No sequence or plan, just a fatalistic don't give a fuck plan.

It worked and failed at the same time. For a start I wasn't lifting. I did manage topull hot 'girlfriends'. In reality I was just orbiting and providing validation, and seeking validation. Things picked up at home at the same time, but I was also self distructing with booze at the same time. How I got away with driving under the influence so many times I don't know.

I was not improving myself as a man. I was still a needy bitch reacting to the world, not creating my world.

Once I discovered MRP, and started doing the Dread in sequence, I started getting the results I was after.

Cultivating the correct mindset and striving to be a better man for myself was the key. When applying the 12 steps of dread you are in fact taking the steps necessary to become that man.

The bottom line is, improving yourself. A MAP, any MAP, plan or strategy is just a tool in achieving it. The advantage of any map or plan is you are giving it structure and achievable goals.

Don't get hung up on the specifics of which one to follow, the idea is to get someone to follow concrete steps and moving away from a wishy washy wishlist attitude to someone following calculated and formulated steps in achieving goals.

[–]resolutions3161 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

I love this post because it is autistic in all the ways I appreciate.

Kay's approach really set the tone for a lot of later materials and frameworks here. I loved the whole MAP idea and dig his whole approach.

After being here a while, the "stages" or "steps" framework has some pretty clear limitations, and it doesn't adequately describe (at least, for me) what following it has been like.

Fundamentally, I really only see two phases: "differentiation" (becoming a fully integrated person, OUTSIDE of your marriage) and "game" (applying intersexual dynamics to your marriage). Different people will have different hang ups and areas to work on.

The step ladder approach is attractive because it appeals to a rational, systematic mind. If it wasn't there, most of us would never get started.

You can kill a man, but you can't kill an idea.

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