What Is Love?

yetieater · 2016-09-02T10:08:12+00:00

Do you agree with Nozick's definition of love as the formation of a "we"? If not, what do you think is the defining characteristic of love?

I think it is a good definition - I have seen others which effectively take a different path to a similar destination. I like C.S Lewis's writing on the subject:

"....Eros [romantic love] does not aim at happiness. We may think he does, but when he is brought to the test it proves otherwise... For it is the very mark of Eros that when he is in us we had rather share unhappiness with the Beloved than be happy on any other terms.”

Do you believe in unconditional love? If so, does Nozick's definition suffice or do you have a different understanding of what it means to love unconditionally?

His explanation is good - I do believe in unconditional love, in this context as an act of will to choose to identify a partner as part of the 'we' regardless of their flaws or difficulties in the present. Of course, no will is infinite, and such sentiment is not always beneficial. But it is a form of love.

Do you think that romantic relationships and friendships are mutually exclusive? Does it diminish the idea of love to qualify a relationship with additional descriptors?

I think the two are different, but contain common elements. Diminution is sort of up to your personal definitions. I would not normally describe my wife as a friend, even though we do all the things friends do, because it is different. You might characterise the difference as being that you expect a friend to consider you when fulfilling their own wishes, but a spouse maybe considering your wishes as part of their own wishes.

Reading the other posts in this thread, I would agree that friendship is a poor romantic strategy to pursue, and that I would normally not advise people to try and evolve friendships into romantic relationships, unless they are really, really clear in their intentions. On reflection though, I can think of friends who have consistently followed this pattern and enjoyed romantic success, whilst it is something that has never worked for me. However, I used to be very bad at reading nonverbal communication and nuance, so perhaps the more subtle kind of nature is more capable at this. Personally, I think making friends is unnecessary as a first stage.

What are some feminine expressions of the desire to posses the other person completely?

A desire to be the utter focus of their attention, I think. Not entirely sure of that, but it seems like the expression of a jealously (in the old-fashioned more neutral sense) for their attention and particularly a caution around the idea of a man spending attention on other women is part of it.

Do you feel like you and your SO are a "we"?

Yes, without doubt. We are very different, and excel at different things, but the aim is the best for us both.

snbdmliss · 2016-09-02T05:12:33+00:00

Baby don't hurt me, don't hurt me, no more!

Littleknownfacts · 2016-09-02T03:51:51+00:00

Do you agree with Nozick's definition of love as the formation of a "we"? If not, what do you think is the defining characteristic of love?

Most definitely! I don't think even the most adamant of feminists could deny it, even if one partner swallows up the other it's still a 'we'. It's evident in the way a married couple shares a name and the physical Shakespearean beast with two backs (rather than described as two beasts conjoined).

Do you believe in unconditional love? If so, does Nozick's definition suffice or do you have a different understanding of what it means to love unconditionally?

I suppose technically it is unconditional, in the sense that it is not dependent upon a characteristic but rather the person as a whole. However, in the more colloquial sense of the word, meaning to love forever no matter what, I'm less convinced. If you consider love a feeling, than no, it will definitely not last forever unconditionally. But if you consider it an act, then yes, through determination and discipline, you can love forever unconditionally. Personally, I lean towards the latter.

Do you think that romantic relationships and friendships are mutually exclusive? Does it diminish the idea of love to qualify a relationship with additional descriptors?

I've come up with three different ways that the relationships and friendships can exist (though I may be missing something cause it's late and I'm a couple of drinks in). One is that a relationship is friendship and beyond (lovers). So that the relationship is just a more specific term of friendship. The second is the ladder, so friendship is the first step, but at a specific point, evolves into a relationship. And the last is a Venn diagram, where friendship and relationship overlap some set amount. In Nozik's view, the Venn Diagram does not over lap at all, and so the two are mutually exclusive. He says it is this way because friendship focuses on the self and the relationship has to focus on the we. However, I don't see why coming together as the individuals would not also bring the we closer together, though I would say it isn't always nessesarily so. I've never considered if my boyfriend and I are friends, because I'm not particularly partial to any of the relationship/friendship models that I mentioned and I don't think I would have anything to gain by trying to put a label on it.

What are some feminine expressions of the desire to posses the other person completely?

Lol! Personally, it's been snooping. And it's wasn't coming from a place of 'oh I think he's up to no good!' It was just a curiosity about who his friends were and what they talked about and could I talk with him about those things too? This article made me realize that it was just an early attempt to close the distance between 'we'.

I think another big one for women in general is the need to rush into relationships head first. There is this eagerness that comes from wanting to start "the real world", to play house with your loved one. You always want to fast forward to the serious part of the relationship as fast as possible, because that's where your at the closest 'we'.

Do you feel like you and your SO are a "we"?

Yes.

Other random thoughts from reading the essay:

Nozik briefly mentioned how that homosexual couples, who couldn't publicly declare 'we' would have trouble forming the 'we' identity. I think this may be a problem with other non-traditional couples, such as interreligious or interracial, where they would be hindered from publicly claiming eachother in addition to the usual issues with morals and values.

Nozik also expands on the idea that you could start by loving someone conditionally, and if the characteristics are plenty and varied, you eventually grow to love someone unconditionally. Which reminds me of something my boyfriend said when we started dating "All those quirky little things you love about me now will be the things that annoy you the most in three years." Which is just another reason the vetting process is so important! You need time to make sure what ever shallow reasons drew you together do eventually become about the person, and not just his/her characteristics.

So at one point Nozik describes what I like to call the I Love You Mexican Standoff. No one wants their love to be one-sided, so the first time someone says 'I love you' what they mean is 'I love you if you love me'. Now, I've seen advice from some of the more experienced RPW saying that women should not be the first to say I love you. However, I would argue that doing so in the I Love You Mexican Standoff doing so would show vulnerability, a trait much better suited for a woman than a man. Not that you should run around saying that to every man you meet, but if your fairly certain your in the Stand Off, it might not be such a bad thing.

CoochQuarantine · 2016-09-02T14:48:48+00:00

Do you agree with Nozick's definition of love as the formation of a "we"? If not, what do you think is the defining characteristic of love?

I agree with it.

Do you believe in unconditional love? If so, does Nozick's definition suffice or do you have a different understanding of what it means to love unconditionally?

No I don't believe in unconditional love. I think it is very contingent on circumstances. Now is that to say that love is fickle? No. It just means that so long as you remain within the confines of what society would deem as 'normal' behavior then yes, love should remain in tact. But if you all of a sudden become a murdering rapist, not so much.

Do you think that romantic relationships and friendships are mutually exclusive? Does it diminish the idea of love to qualify a relationship with additional descriptors?

Yes I believe they are mutually exclusive. I don't believe you can be friends with you SO. Others might feel differently but that is just how I see things.

What are some feminine expressions of the desire to posses the other person completely?

Mate guarding. Definitely mate guarding.

Do you feel like you and your SO are a "we"?

Yes <3<3<3

stevierose345 · 2016-09-02T03:01:47+00:00

Tonight as I stood on our deck and tended the grill, I admired the large pin oak in our yard and I marveled at how much that tree had grown in twenty four years. That tree started out as a baby sapling in our flower bed, started from a seed from a tree in the neighbor’s yard. I remember like it was yesterday, the day my husband and I transplanted that tree, working together to get it in the ground on a cold fall day. That tree grew as quickly as our children did. That tree would be my metaphor for love. To me love is the trust and the faith that compels two people to plant a tree; to create a future together. I think love is the special something that begins as lust and transforms into a unity that comes from working together as a team to build a life together.

BellaScarletta · 2016-09-02T01:58:38+00:00

First off, I'll admit I haven't read the essay - I fully intend to, but I don't have a moment to do so now.

Do you agree with Nozick's definition of love as the formation of a "we"? If not, what do you think is the defining characteristic of love?

Based on your bullet points, yes, there is nothing there I disagree with. Particularly the point on voluntarily limited autonomy. I don't see how you can be a successful "we" without being a limited "me"; that being said, I think 'voluntary' is the key word there. The cost of sacrificing a bit of autonomy is far outweighed by all the benefits offered by achieving "we", so much so that it isn't a sacrifice at all.

Do you believe in unconditional love? If so, does Nozick's definition suffice or do you have a different understanding of what it means to love unconditionally?

No I don't. There are many conditions under which I love. Actually, there are few, but they are iron boundaries. Him being a good person, him looking out in the best interest of the relationship (not to be confused with making a mistake that acts against interests, that is human; I mean only to completely abandon it as a priority would be a condition). There are few others but I think they come with the territory of finding a good captain. That being said, perhaps once you've found one then you can love unconditionally. Having never been married, I'll reserve judgment on that being that I haven't been there. I think it would be rare for a total personality change to happen, but hypothetically if it did that may reinstate the aforementioned conditions. I'm not sure, those are just my initial musings.

Do you think that romantic relationships and friendships are mutually exclusive? Does it diminish the idea of love to qualify a relationship with additional descriptors?

Yes I think so, to both questions. That being said, I think relationships share many qualities friendships do, so it's easy to conflate the two. A duck and a chicken share many qualities, as do those animals and others. Sharing qualities isn't the same as being the same, and I don't think of my SO as my friend. But the friendship-like qualities we share are some that I value greatly.

What are some feminine expressions of the desire to posses the other person completely?

Enjoyed deference, complete faith in leadership; I would almost argue it's the desire to be possessed completely rather than to possess. I enjoy thinking of myself as my man's, rather than him as mine. The more I'm his, the more I know he is mine. He shows my possession of him by fiercely possessing me. I hope that makes sense and I'm interested in hearing thoughts.

Do you feel like you and your SO are a "we"?

I'm hesitant to answer this as I'm in a very new relationship. I do think of us as a unit/team, but certainly not to the degree this article is referencing. I do believe "we" is the form a quality relationship naturally takes.

Camille11325 · 2016-09-02T03:48:57+00:00

My answers to the questions:

I definitely agree with his definition of love, and I found his essay to be incredibly insightful and thorough. I don’t think his work included every aspect of a romantic relationship, there are so many factors and conflicting forces at work, he just did a really good job exploring love itself separate from those influences.
I agree with Nozick that when you start to fall in love with someone it is because of specific traits, but then you start to love them for who they are. To me, this is a satisfactory description of “unconditional love” because the love is based on something greater than the sum of your SO’s parts. I don’t think it has to be rational or in anyone’s best interest to feel this way for it to be a component of love. I don’t remember specifically if this was something he brought up in his post, if I read it elsewhere, or if this was my own thought, but while I think you can have unconditional love, I don’t think that means that romantic relationships are unconditional, nor do I think it means that the love itself is unshakable. If you love someone for who they are, and core characteristics change and they are no longer who they are, then it makes sense that you’d fall out of love with them. Also you can have the boundaries of the relationship crossed and decide to end things while still being in love with someone, and then overtime (hopefully) you fall out of love with them because you are no longer in the “we” so you stop desiring it. So basically I think unconditional love applies within the context of a conditional relationship, and one of the conditions of the relationship is the person remaining true to who they are (core character). If there is a better term to describe my position please let me know!
I absolutely think that romantic relationships and friendships are mutually exclusive, for all of the reasons I said in the OP but if anyone has questions or wants me to expand let me know.
As I said in my comment to /u/BellaScarletta, I think women express their desire to possess the other through an insistence on monogamy. Ensuring that all of his time, energy, resources, attention, emotions, and sexual energy are directed towards you is a form of ownership imo and once that base desire is satisfied you can submit and trust fully. Marriage I think is the ultimate expression of this, two becoming one, both people wearing rings to signify the change in status, etc.
Yes I absolutely feel like M and I are a “we” and we grow closer every day <3

zombiegroupie82 · 2016-09-08T06:04:49+00:00

Do you agree with Nozick's definition of love as the formation of a "we"? If not, what do you think is the defining characteristic of love? Yes, I agreed with it. It actually explained my own thoughts pretty clearly.

Do you believe in unconditional love? If so, does Nozick's definition suffice or do you have a different understanding of what it means to love unconditionally? I don't know. If I "believe" in it. I think that most romantic love has conditions even if we don't realize it. Like, I love my husband. Have loved him for so many years. But if he was a serial adulterer I think I would lose the love eventually. I don't even know if we can love our children unconditionally.

Do you think that romantic relationships and friendships are mutually exclusive? Does it diminish the idea of love to qualify a relationship with additional descriptors? I think so. I don't think love and friendship are the same thing, fundamentally. My intimacy with my husband goes deeper than any friend I've ever had.

What are some feminine expressions of the desire to posses the other person completely? Wanting their attention all the time? Making yourself look nice and favorable to them, like their favorite color on you, favorite perfume, etc. Making their favorite meals, making an effort to learn their favorites, their moods, how to cheer them up

Do you feel like you and your SO are a "we"? definitely

Title	What Is Love?
Author	Camille11325
Upvotes	11
Comments	26
Date	September 1, 2016 10:42 PM UTC (9 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/RedPillWives
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/RedPillWives/comments/50q0ef/what_is_love/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/RedPillWives/what-is-love.209628 https://theredarchive.com/post/209628

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