What is your problem with feminism?

zoemondo · 2020-09-09T21:25:31+00:00

What is your critique of it? This is just a survey....

[–][deleted] 7 points8 points9 points 5 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]zoemondo 3 points4 points5 points 5 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

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[–]Half-Ice-Half-Fire 9 points10 points11 points 5 years ago (14 children) | Copy Link

[+]stinkycel1 points 5 years ago* [recovered] (3 children) | Copy Link

Well, height/dick shaming is still socially acceptable in 2020

Body positivity should be for both genders, but it feels like it's for women only

[–]zoemondo 4 points5 points6 points 5 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[+]stinkycel1 points 5 years ago* [recovered] (1 child) | Copy Link

But they will have to speak up for themselves

we try, but we get mocked and ricidculed for bringing up that we have a small dick. i implore you to check out r/smalldickproblems and it's the same thing with guys who are short too

You have an invitation to the body positivity party

no i dont lol. small dicks are the laughing stock of the whole world. even feminists shame men for their size

It's a response to the unrealistic standards in the beauty and fashion worlds

6' (which is 82nd percentile lol) height and 6" inches are pretty unrealistic standards women have tbh

no one is going to do it for you

that's obvious since we already know how people feel about small endowed and short men

[–]zoemondo 3 points4 points5 points 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

What were you expecting? For people to back down and say "oh I'm sorry good sir. I will shut up now and let you go about bringing change in society."

Fuck no. Anyone who tries to make a difference in society is going to experience backlash. Suffragettes were arrested for doing what they did. People fighting for civil rights have been shot, killed, slandered in the media, had the fire hydrants opened on them. If you want to bring about body positivity for men (I think this sort of movement should also include telling men it's okay to wear what they want and it's okay to wear makeup and stuff) then you're going to be harassed. Someone will call you a snowflake or a f*ggot. And it's sometimes going to come from hypocritical people who claim to be accepting and liberal.

This is what you're up against. It's also going to take a lot of time. Are you going to give up or fight back? I never said it would be easy.

[–]zoemondo 5 points6 points7 points 5 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link

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[–]forthelove19 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]InnsmouthMotel 5 points6 points7 points 5 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

I'd like to make a distinction here, there ARE men who support male abuse victims and I'm sure some are in MRA forums, however in my experience much more help has came from feminist circles. As a victim of male on male (child) abuse I've often found the discussion side lined for female on male abuse (not acceptable when I'm talking about my shit) or outright dismissed on some particularly poignant occasions, only then for those same users to crow about caring for male abuse victims. I'm not a token victim to be trotted out as an example of how you help those who've been abused, especially when you don't do anything to help. Additionally, shockingly I've got a fair few mental health issues following this. I've found Mens Rights Activists to be particular sticklers around ideas of expressing masculinity in a specific way which frankly I don't.

I'd like to emphasise I believe there is a real issue around men's rights and unique issues we face. But the common issue I see is that MRAs cry about for instance there being no domestic violence shelters for men, but like there weren't any for fucking women until women started doing this shit themselves, it's not something to be handed to you on a platter. And as such feminist groups end up doing more for men with their actions than MRAs. Like I was abused by a man, telling me the problems I face in society are because of feminism doesn't help me. Take the top post on mens rights right now, it's a complete dismissal of sexual assault, or that's how I read it. A real comfortable place to talk about my own experiences eh?

Caveat I left the MRA circles a long time ago for this and related problems, maybe the entire community has flipped on its head but looking at that front page right now it sure doesn't feel that way.

This has run on but my personal experience of MRAs as a man has been quite toxic.

[–]forthelove19 1 point2 points3 points 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

As a victim of male on male (child) abuse I've often found the discussion side lined for female on male abuse (not acceptable when I'm talking about my shit) or outright dismissed on some particularly poignant occasions, only then for those same users to crow about caring for male abuse victims. I'm not a token victim to be trotted out as an example of how you help those who've been abused, especially when you don't do anything to help.

Let me first just say that I'm terribly sorry you had to go through that. Any response from someone toward an actually victim other then full support is disgusting.

I've found Mens Rights Activists to be particular sticklers around ideas of expressing masculinity in a specific way which frankly I don't.

I'm not sure exactly what you mean here.

But the common issue I see is that MRAs cry about for instance there being no domestic violence shelters for men, but like there weren't any for fucking women until women started doing this shit themselves, it's not something to be handed to you on a platter. And as such feminist groups end up doing more for men with their actions than MRAs.

There is a genuine concern about male shelters, especially considering the story of Earl Silverman. Most female abuse shelters 1. Do not permit men at all, and 2. Have government funding where shelters like Earl's couldnt secure funding no matter how hard he tried.

This is mainly because of the modern feminist pushed narrative that mostly women are the victims of domestic violence (and rape, neither are true), when in fact at least 40% of domestic violence victims from their partners are men.

Take the top post on mens rights right now, it's a complete dismissal of sexual assault, or that's how I read it. A real comfortable place to talk about my own experiences eh?

The top post I'm seeing is this one:

https://www.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/5j16nd/how_to_get_banned_from_rfeminism/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share

Maybe you could link me the one you're referring to?

Like I was abused by a man, telling me the problems I face in society are because of feminism doesn't help me.

This has run on but my personal experience of MRAs as a man has been quite toxic.

I really think this has to do with the squeaky wheel gets the grease. I think for any cause, political, religious, social issues, etc, the loudest and most vicious voices are the ones who get the most attention and end up "representing" that movement. I think this holds true in both modern/mainstream feminism, and the men's rights movement (I in particular have had a much more toxic experience with modern feminism myself).

Most posts and comments by r/mens rights are garbage, most post and comments on feminist subreddits are garbage, most people in both of these movements are disingenuous, most public figures for both of these movements tend to be toxic and controversial.

Either way, they are both incredibly toxic, but there is a lot of good information to be found in both. I learned things in r/mensrights that I never knew.

I realized that many of the lies I had been told my whole life were not only demonstrably false, but also sexist (men don't get raped, we live in a rape culture where all men are potential rapists and serial killers, only women are domestic abuse victims, men are just inherently violent and aggressive, etc).

I try to avoid toxicity on the internet when I can, but it's basically unavoidable. Hell, I've experienced and seen a fair bit of toxicity on this very sub.

Again, I'm terribly sorry for your experiences, and anyone who writes you off simply because you don't fit a narrative is disgusting.

[–]medlabunicorn 2 points3 points4 points 5 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

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[–]zoemondo 1 point2 points3 points 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

What's the definition of it? I mean, I have to go with what the history books say. I'm cool with 1st and 2 wave feminism because that was about equality. But I have to say that it's another social movement that social media has ruined.

I'm going to copy and paste another comment of mine, if that's cool. It's my opinion on it.

I consider myself a humanist, personally. I'm on board with helping out and speaking up for any group of people that has been wrongfully discriminated against.

In regards to women's rights? Eliminating sexual violence as much as possible and reproductive rights are probably the most important issues to me. Things like voting, equal opportunities, and equal pay have mostly been taken care of so far. Also old school gender norms need to be thrown out, because that would benefit everyone.

I'm not on board with hating men. No younger guys were asked to be born into this culture, just like younger women didn't ask for this bullshit either. It's what we are both stuck dealing with. It's fucking stupid to blame young guys who didn't do a damn thing wrong for all of the misogyny that has been happening for millennia. People are so divided lately on every fucking issue (gender issues or otherwise) that we forget we can actually help each other out. People don't understand that when one marginalized group gets help, it can indirectly benefit them too.

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[–]zoemondo 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points6 points 5 years ago* (4 children) | Copy Link

If your kind of feminism is about focusing out the evils of men to the point of hating people for the horrible crime of being born with a dick... Well, you need therapy.

On the other hand, if you're obsessed by the evils of (((scary feminism))), you may just be looking for something to validate your resentment toward half of the world population, so you'd also need therapy.

The problem is Hate, this shit ruins concept, people and ideologies. I'd just wish for men and women to start loving and trusting each other again, that's what the next wave of feminism should be about. But we can't even manage to respect one another, so I guess we're pretty much fucked for now.

EDIT : But mostly on the internet. I forgot about the real world for a moment, people are still pretty nice there. We're only virtually* fucked for now. Wich is not too bad, all things considered.

[+]stinkycel1 points 5 years ago* [recovered] (3 children) | Copy Link

I don't think you realize that those triple parenthesis are very anti-semitic...

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[–]forthelove19 -5 points-4 points-3 points 5 years ago (19 children) | Copy Link

Depends on which wave/type of feminism you are referring to.

Mainstresm feminism is no longer about empowerment and building women up, it is about tearing men down.

It has become a part of identity politics, mostly left leaning. Any woman who disagrees with certain views held by these left leaning feminist ideologs are mercilessly attacked.

I have seen men's domestic abuse shelters shut down by feminist organizations (men are largely excluded from abuse shelters, despite being at least 40% of domestiv violence victims from their partners).

I have seen prominent feminists like Mary P Koss write off, ignore, and exclude male rape victims (because to her, and the FBI definition of rape, and mainstream reported rape statistics "made or coerced to penetrate" doesn't count as rape.)

I have seen feminists try to justify attacking people who speak out against false accusations where women weaponize rape, not only purposefully hurting innocent people who aren't rapists, but also underming and ultimately hurting the cases of REAL victims of rape.

I have seen feminists perpetuating the idea that we live in a "rape culture" or that all men are potential rapists/serial killers purely on the basis that they are men (while again, projecting that women can't really be rapists themselves).

The good ol type of feminism was about women's rights and "equality" not tearing men down. It was about egalitarianism, not over correction for the past oppression of the evil patriarchy.

Also, most western feminists don't really seem to care about the human rights abuses and oppression that most women still face around the world.

So maybe you should clarify what feminism is to you or your definition of it with some positive examples, because my experience with modern feminism has not been a positive one.

[–]medlabunicorn 7 points8 points9 points 5 years ago (14 children) | Copy Link

The FBI definition of rape was expanded to include male victims thanks to feminist pressure.

Men’s’ shelters have been shut down due to lack of funding and support, which is on everyone’s shoulders, not just feminists’ shoulders. If men won’t donate to support men’s shelters the way that women donate to support women’s shelters, that’s not up to just feminists.

Modern feminists are capable of both caring about completely unpaved roads around the world, and also worrying about the potholes here at home. Saying that we can’t advocate for improvement here until all of the worse problems elsewhere are fixed, is basically saying that all problems should be allowed to degrade to the same lowest common denominator and then fixed simultaneously. That’s a stupid argument to apply to anyone trying to make things better in a first world. “Oh, your poling station got closed and now you have to wait a few hours? Well, boo-hoo! Why aren’t you protesting for the people around the world who can’t vote at all?!”

[–]forthelove19 -2 points-1 points0 points 5 years ago (13 children) | Copy Link

The FBI definition of rape was expanded to include male victims thanks to feminist pressure.

It was expanded to include male victims of rape by other males, not females. Again, it ignores "made or coerced to penetrate" as rape.

https://www.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/hzyy86/an_older_post_about_rape/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share

Men’s’ shelters have been shut down due to lack of funding and support, which is on everyone’s shoulders, not just feminists’ shoulders. If men won’t donate to support men’s shelters the way that women donate to support women’s shelters, that’s not up to just feminists.

Let me be more clear, a man named Earl Silverman started an abuse shelter for men in Canada that he funded out of his own pocket. He was harassed and threatened by feminists protesters, and even reported vandalism to his shelter.

No matter how hard he tried over the years he could not secure funding from the GOVERNMENT despite their being ample funding for women's shelters. This is because the 3rd wave mainstream feminism narrative is that women are primarily the victims of domestic abuse, when in realty, around 40% minimum are men. Earl ended up hanging himself in his garage. He was then bashed in the media after his death.

Saying that we can’t advocate for improvement here until all of the worse problems elsewhere are fixed, is basically saying that all problems should be allowed to degrade to the same lowest common denominator and then fixed simultaneously. That’s a stupid argument to apply to anyone trying to make things better in a first world. “Oh, your poling station got closed and now you have to wait a few hours? Well, boo-hoo! Why aren’t you protesting for the people around the world who can’t vote at all?!”

I never said anything remotely close to this. I didn't say they had to care more about women around the world before they could care about problems here. I said they seemingly don't care about women internationally at all

"Modern feminists are capable of both caring about completely unpaved roads around the world, and also worrying about the potholes here at home." I hardly see any mainstream feminists (or any feminists at all for that matter) that speak about the "unpaved roads around the world"

Not to mention, like I said before, most modern feminists aren't trying to fix problems or build women up, they are trying to tear men down.

[–]medlabunicorn 5 points6 points7 points 5 years ago (12 children) | Copy Link

So your complaint is not that women haven’t done anything for male rape victims, it’s that they haven’t done enough, even when men themselves aren’t doing diddly squat for male rape victims besides complaining on the internet.

Ok, so you know of ONE men’s shelter that was shut down because, again, men didn’t step up and lobby for government action. Clearly you’re literate, so it’s not just that you’re incapable of lobbying the government...🤔. Earl sounds like a decent guy, but blaming his death on women is a bit of a stretch.

WRT the numbers: do you have any evidence that, outside of prison, men are 40% of rape victims? And they are 40% of domestic violence victims when you count emotional abuse; if you look at who ends up in the emergency room or has their dog murdered, it’s almost all women.

If you don’t think that western feminists care about other women around the world at all, you’re being willfully blind.

You seem to think that this is a zero-sum game. It is not. It is better for men that they are not the sole bread-earners and the family isn’t 100% dependent on them. It is better for men and children when fathers spend time with their children. It is better for men that more women are getting into the military.

And it is better for the whole economy that half of the population’s brains are not wasted at home taking about poop with toddlers.

[–]forthelove19 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (11 children) | Copy Link

So your complaint is not that women haven’t done anything for male rape victims, it’s that they haven’t done enough, even when men themselves aren’t doing diddly squat for male rape victims besides complaining on the internet.

I'm not complaining about men or women. My beef is with modern third wave feminism and false narratives (which most men and women don't subscribe to, but it has still had an effect on our society and culture).

When I say false narratives of 3rd wave feminism, this is what I mean

"For statistical reporting, rape has been carefully defined as forced penetration of the victim in most of the world. Please listen to this feminist professor Mary P Koss explain that a woman raping a man isn't rape. Hear her explain in her own voice just a few years ago - https://clyp.it/uckbtczn. I encourage you to listen to what she is saying. (Really. Listen to it! Think about it from a man's perspective.)

She is considered the foremost expert on sexual violence in the US. She is the one that started the 1 in 4 American college women is sexually assaulted myth by counting all sorts of things the 'victims' didn't. A man misinterpreting a situation going in for a kiss and then backing off when she pulls back, puts up her hand, or turns her cheek is counted as a sexual assault on a woman even if she doesn't think it was. As you hear in her own words the woman's studies professor and trusted expert that literally wrote the book on measuring prevalence of sexual violence does not call a woman drugging and riding a man bareback rape ... or even label it sexual assault ... it is merely 'unwanted contact' "

Ok, so you know of ONE men’s shelter that was shut down because, again, men didn’t step up and lobby for government action. Clearly you’re literate, so it’s not just that you’re incapable of lobbying the government...🤔. Earl sounds like a decent guy, but blaming his death on women is a bit of a stretch.

Fair enough, that is one example I could find, but I have regularly seen feminists hold "male domestic violence shelters" in negative regard and write them off as sexist.

Well for one, it's not that "men" didn't step up and lobby the government, nobody did. Both men and women don't really seem to care about male victims. Again, because most people don't think men experience domestic violence very often because most media, awareness, and prevention is targeted as a women's issue.

I wasn't necessarily blaming his death on the harassment (although that could have played a part), I was mostly just referring to the fact that he was bashed in the media after taking his own life.

WRT the numbers: do you have any evidence that, outside of prison, men are 40% of rape victims? And they are 40% of domestic violence victims when you count emotional abuse; if you look at who ends up in the emergency room or has their dog murdered, it’s almost all women.

Well I never gave a figure for male victims of rape. The data from different studies vary, but not very much. When "made or coerced to penetrate" is included in the reported rapes, men and women report rape at around the same rate.

This comment copy pasta talks about it in depth with multiple sources:

https://www.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/hzyy86/an_older_post_about_rape/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share

Also see: https://www.reddit.com/r/rbomi/wiki/main#wiki_4._rape_laws_excluding_male_victims

Regarding male victims of (physical) domestic violence:

https://www.reddit.com/r/rbomi/wiki/main#wiki_1._attitudes_towards_male_victims_of_domestic_violence

Also, studies on domestic violence consistently found that women engage in aggressive behaviors more frequently the men do. The rates at which men and women are injured is debatable, but women actually hit, kick, scratch, yell, and throe objects at their partners more frequently then men do.

https://web.csulb.edu/~mfiebert/assault.htm

If you don’t think that western feminists care about other women around the world at all, you’re being willfully blind.

I can honestly say that I haven't seen much campaigning by western feminism. I've seen plenty of feminists in the news from and in these countries campaigning and doing great work, but I hardly if ever hear people talk about it here.

You seem to think that this is a zero-sum game. It is not. It is better for men that they are not the sole bread-earners and the family isn’t 100% dependent on them. It is better for men and children when fathers spend time with their children. It is better for men that more women are getting into the military.

I don't think it's a zero sum game at all. I think 8 or 9/10 that obliterating traditional gender roles is a good thing. Most women these days still seem to view men as economic vending machines.

I also agree about fathers spending time with their children. Fatherlessness rates are linked to higher levels of poverty, crime, suicide, imprisonment, etc.

And it is better for the whole economy that half of the population’s brains are not wasted at home taking about poop with toddlers.

Again, I agree

[–]medlabunicorn 1 point2 points3 points 5 years ago (10 children) | Copy Link

Can you provide single links talking about rates of ‘made to penetrate’ rape? I saw a claim in there, but not a link. Likewise with the ‘women abuse more’ claim.

Wrt rates of physical intimate partner violence, women scream more and commit ineffectual physical aggression as much or more, but men cause more injuries and murders:

https://www.womensaid.org.uk/information-support/what-is-domestic-abuse/domestic-abuse-is-a-gendered-crime/

https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/fvv.pdf

https://www.heuni.fi/material/attachments/heuni/projects/wd2vDSKcZ/Homicide_and_Gender.pdf

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2779018/

https://dvmedtraining.csw.fsu.edu/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/Conditions-and-Injuries-2014.pdf

Don’t get me wrong, I agree that there should be shelters for men. I don’t think that the same number of beds are needed- that leads to the concert bathroom syndrome, where the same square footage for men’s bathrooms leaves women’s lines snaking 300 feet in intermission, because men’s bathrooms have urinals as well as stalls, and men don’t have to change tampons/etc. But I agree that there should be enough men’s shelters to accommodate all of the men who need shelter.

[–]forthelove19 1 point2 points3 points 5 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Pt 1

Wrt rates of physical intimate partner violence, women scream more and commit ineffectual physical aggression as much or more, but men cause more injuries and murders:

Yes, I mentioned in my last post that obviously that was debatable an that there was discrepancy there. Part of the reason that the physical abuse women engage in is considered "innefectual" is because women are smaller and physically weaker then men on average. But it isn't "innefectual."

Yes, women do experience higher rates of injury. According to Statistics Canada's report: 40% of the female victims reported physical injuries (cuts, bruises, or broken bones) while 24% of men reported these injuries. A 16% disparity isn't astronomical, especially considering, again, women were more likely to behave in the so called "innefectual" abuses, and men on average are far physically stronger then women are

If you for some reason don't believe men are much stronger then women on average, or that men don't have more skeletal muscle mass on average then women, here are some links:

https://www-livescience-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/www.livescience.com/amp/52998-women-combat-gender-differences.html?amp_js_v=a3&amp_gsa=1&usqp=mq331AQFKAGwASA%3D#aoh=15997861046706&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&amp_tf=From%20%251%24s&ampshare=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.livescience.com%2F52998-women-combat-gender-differences.html

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF00235103

Why males pack a powerful punch Upper arm strength, different from females', may have specialized for forceful blows https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2020/02/200205132404.htm

That's not even considering that a vast number of men don't report domestic violence out of fear and because it isn't taken seriously. IN FACT, 47% of male victims of domestic abuse were threatened to be arrested, 35% of male victims were completely ignored by police, and 21% of victims ACTUALLY WERE arrested when reporting THEIR OWN abuse from female perpetrators

http://www.sascv.org/ijcjs/pdfs/carolettaijcjs2010vol5iss1.pdf

Then you have reported cases of domestic violence that are used to get temporary restraining orders in court. There are cases of women lying about domestic abuse in court to get temporary restraining orders and attain full custody of children. Many lawyers say that upwards of 50-60% of TROS can be fake.

From another reddit user

"TRO's are ex parte. Meaning the applicant most often never meets a judge, nor does the respondent.

She fills out an application through the local police and then they bring it to a judge. Sometimes at 2 am.

No evidence, no past history and no notice for the respondent is required. All the judge ever sees is a paragraph. It's "guilty till innocent". And the avenue for appeal is absurd.

Here's an essay: https://www.huffpost.com/entry/order-of-protection-and-j_b_974970

The obviousness doesn't seem to matter. That they tend to get ordered during divorce's and that they give an overwhelming advantage to one party doesn't seem to raise much doubt."

Personal anecdote from another redditor:

"Another question that i'd like answered has to do with the spurious use of Temporary Restraining Orders. So my ex was the violent and unstable one, not me.

However, as a tactic in our divorce settlement, my ex made false accusations of domestic violence as a means to take complete control of the house, assets and the kids.

So "on paper", the stats on DV would portray my situation as "male on female", but the stark reality is that they have it 180o wrong; it wasn't me. In fact my ex used a weapon against me; the system. It hurts me deeply that these TRO stats would be used to further the agenda. It's stunning. It's also hard to nail it down."

I'm not sure if you read the link I actually provided regarding male domestic violence victims in rbomi (the link doesn't work on mobile because reddit mobile is glitchy right nkw) so here it is copy and pasted.

Examples/evidence: Here are multiple studies showing that men make up between one quarter and one half of domestic violence victims (listed from low to high).

Men made up 24% of domestic violence victims 2003-2012 in the United States, according to the Bureau of Justice Statistics at the U.S. Department of Justice [5].

Men were 28% of those who'd experienced violence from partners they lived with in 2012 in Australia, according to the Australian Bureau of Statistics [6].

Men made up 40% of all domestic violence victims between 2004 and 2009 in Britain, according to a study using data from the Home Office [7].

Men were 40% of the domestic violence victims in 2011/2012 in Britain, according to the Office for National Statistics [8].

An equal number of men and women (4% of men and 4% of women) reported having been physically and/or sexually abused by their partner during the preceding five years in Canada, according to Statistics Canada's 2014 General Social Survey [9].

Martin S. Fiebert of the Department of Psychology at California State University, Long Beach provides a bibliography of 286 scholarly investigations (221 empirical studies and 65 reviews/analyses) showing that in relationships women aren't any less violent than men

In addition to these, the Partner Abuse State of Knowledge project is a comprehensive review of domestic violence research [11].

Among PASK’s findings are that, except for sexual coercion, men and women perpetrate physical and non-physical forms of abuse at comparable rates, most domestic violence is mutual, women are as controlling as men, domestic violence by men and women is correlated with essentially the same risk factors, and male and female perpetrators are motivated for similar reasons.

The PASK project did however find that women were more impacted by domestic violence, likely due to a higher rate of injury, which was also found by Statistics Canada's 2014 report: 40% of the female victims of domestic violence reported physical injuries (cuts, bruises, or broken bones) compared to 24% of the male victims. Although the findings on impact/injuries (and maybe prevalence) suggest that domestic violence is overall more of a problem for women, this does not justify the common approach of treating it as only a problem for women.

A BBC article on gay victims of domestic violence talks with a gay man who said that as a man trying to get help from a domestic violence program, you were either “hung up on or referred to a batterers’ intervention programme” [4]. Emily Douglas and Denise Hines published an article in the Journal of family violence on the experiences of male victims who sought help. Of the 132 men they looked at who had sought help from DV agencies, 95.3% walked away with the impression that the agency was biased against men, 49.9% were told "we only help women", and 40.2% were accused of being the batterer themselves. 15.2% reported that the staff made fun of them [12]. Murray Straus, professor of sociology at the University of New Hampshire, expands on the lack of acceptance of male victims. He examined 12 surveys used to gather data on domestic violence and found that 10 of them only reported assaults from men. “[T]he exclusive focus on male perpetrators and the exclusive focus on just one of the many causes” has hindered the effort to end domestic violence, he argues [13]. Straus also remarks on a time in 2005 when the National Institute of Justice invited grant proposals to investigate domestic violence, but stated that studies invovling male victims were not eligible to receive funding [14]. If you're wondering what a case of domestic violence against a man can look like, here's one man's story [15].

Simon* is one man who understands the consequences of abuse better than most. For most of his 17-year marriage, this 47-year-old was subjected to domestic abuse from his wife, from having hot drinks poured over him to dinner plates smashed over his head. While his wife was never physically violent towards their three children, she would often attack him in front of them. “I didn’t think of it as domestic violence and I think that’s often true for male victims,” he says now. “You put it down to mood swings. There was also the pressure of thinking that if I walked away, I might get a raw deal when it came to custody of the children. [...] “But as a boy, growing up, I was always told that boys don’t hit girls. That was the most important thing. It didn’t matter how I was provoked, I would just never do that. So I would let her anger burn out rather than ever retaliate.”

If you want the links to the citations, paste this link:

https://www.reddit.com/r/rbomi/wiki/main#wiki_1._attitudes_towards_male_victims_of_domestic_violence

Into Chrome, or go on chrome to r/rbomi and go to section 4.1 (toxic social attitudes - attitudes towards male victims of domestic violence

[–]medlabunicorn 1 point2 points3 points 5 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]forthelove19 1 point2 points3 points 5 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

None of that contradicts my point. Men injure and kill women vastly more than women injure or kill men. The links I posted supported that claim. The links you posted don’t contradict it.

I didn't say that they contradicted your claim. Although rates of injury and death are higher in women, the rates of violent and aggressive behaviors physically is the same.

Again, if you take an abusive behavior like punching, which is likely to do more damage, a man punching a woman or a woman punching a man? 9/10 a man is going to be able to inflict more harm, because again, men on average are far more physically strong then women. So of course rates of injury in women are higher.

"Why males pack a powerful punch Upper arm strength, different from females', may have specialized for forceful blows" https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2020/02/200205132404.htm

"Martin S. Fiebert of the Department of Psychology at California State University, Long Beach provides a bibliography of 286 scholarly investigations (221 empirical studies and 65 reviews/analyses) showing that in relationships women aren't any less violent than men"

"Among PASK’s findings are that, except for sexual coercion, men and women perpetrate physical and non-physical forms of abuse at comparable rates, most domestic violence is mutual, women are as controlling as men, domestic violence by men and women is correlated with essentially the same risk factors, and male and female perpetrators are motivated for similar reasons.

The PASK project did however find that women were more impacted by domestic violence, likely due to a higher rate of injury, which was also found by Statistics Canada's 2014 report: 40% of the female victims of domestic violence reported physical injuries (cuts, bruises, or broken bones) compared to 24% of the male victims. Although the findings on impact/injuries (and maybe prevalence) suggest that domestic violence is overall more of a problem for women, this does not justify the common approach of treating it as only a problem for women."

Again, I wasn't contradicting your point my own citation proves your point regarding the prevalence of injury in women domestic abuse victims.

Edit: grammar and source

[–]forthelove19 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago* (6 children) | Copy Link

Pt 2

There is also research that lesbian/bisexual women in same sex relationships experience the highest levels of domestic violence out of any other group

Interesting comment regarding an article in the NIJ journal regarding male suicides rates in cases of domestic violence related deaths:

https://obsidianwings.blogs.com/obsidian_wings/2012/04/murder-mystery.html

I also recommend you read this post regarded domestic violence homicide. The following is a partially paraphrased quote from this comment:

https://www.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/e6hxvq/battered_husband_syndrome_as_an_explanation_for/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share

"Around 50 years go, there was an apparent gender parity between husbands murdering their wives, and wives murdering their husbands. (Meaning they were murdering each other at virtually the same rate).

Source: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://sites.oxy.edu/clint/evolution/articles/GenderDifferencesinPatternsandTrendsinUSHomicide1976_2015.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjWrPbN_d_rAhXGKM0KHeUQC-IQFjACegQIBhAB&usg=AOvVaw3ZHlnX2-PAZ5hcU-JekzEe

Early in the 70's it came out that men were as equally effected as women were by domestic violence: https://connect.springerpub.com/content/sgrpa/1/3/332

In 1975, when sociologists at the University of New Hampshire published a study suggesting that women were just as likely as men to assault their partners, the researchers faced widespread criticism — including death threats and bomb scares.

In the last 30 years, the number of women murdering their husbands has decreased substantially: https://imgur.com/a/6Hx9dJt

an academic concept has been created to explain this drop: the battered wife syndrome. It was argued that women weren't evil, murderous people, hellbent on killing their husbands.

No, you can only ever say stuff like that about men. When a woman murdered her husband, it was because of self-defense. She was a victim who was pushed into a corner with no way out except to kill her abuser.

This logic was so powerful that organizations were created to free wives who had been convicted of murdering their husbands: https://survivedandpunished.org

What was overlooked in all of this was the equivalent concept of a "battered husband syndrome". It's not that men are killing their spouses at greater rates today than in the past. Men are simply stuck where they were in the 1970s. There are very few resources available to help men get out of abusive, and often legally / financially constraining relationships (due in part to the discrimination that men face in family court).

Nobody ever suggested that if we fought against domestic violence when it effected men, and gave men better options to leave those types of relationships (including better divorce options that don't ruin them financially), that there would be fewer wives being murdered. Not even people who supposedly care about the safety of women dared to make this suggestion. Instead, they went on a campaign to paint men as evil, villainous people, who would stop at nothing to abuse and murder women.

And where has this left us? Wives are still being murdered. Men are still put into situations where murder becomes their best option. And the kind of hatred and bigotry that men face from people who pin the blame on them has continued to run rampant and unchecked in society.

Where is the compassion for men? Or for women, for that matter? Is pushing a false narrative about violent men so important that we don't care about the actual victims? Could it be that when women are murdered, they are only used as pawns in this war to spread a narrative of hatred against men?

Men need better options in life. Men are unfairly discriminated against and unfairly put into situations that often result in either murder or suicide. And instead of helping men live better, more productive lives, all we care about is turning this around into a narrative of hate.

Men are not toxic, evil people. Men are suffering. And society has turned it's back on them."

Basically, sociologists in the 70's found that wives killed their husbands in the same rates as husbands killed their wives.

(Socialogists also found that men were equally effected by domestic violence as were women were.)

Now, 30 years later, that parity no longer exists, and the number of wives killing their husbands has decreased substantially.

The explanation for this is "battered wife syndrome" which basically means that the main reason women killed their husbands was to escape abuse, and now that women have more resources to escape abuse, that kill rate has dropped.

If that's the case, and considering the fact that men in the 70's were equally effected by domestic violence as women were, how could that same argument not be made? That many men murder their wives to escape abuse, and if they had more resources, the homocide rates of wives would drop?

You can't take those statistics dating back to the 70's, make the battered wives syndrome argument about self defense, and then not say that the same would hold true for men in cases of self defense.

So again, the bias and negative attitude towards men is, women kill men in self defense, but men kill women because they are innately more abusive and violent, which is ridiculous.

Also, in case you missed the link in that quote, here it talks about how men and women historically have been effected by domestic violence: https://connect.springerpub.com/content/sgrpa/1/3/332

leads to the concert bathroom syndrome, where the same square footage for men’s bathrooms leaves women’s lines snaking 300 feet in intermission, because men’s bathrooms have urinals as well as stalls, and men don’t have to change tampons/etc.

Thought this one was funny to respond to

"Women are more likely than men to wash their hands and to use the hand dryer. So that’s a reason for more women in the general toilet area."

"Studies show men take an average of 60 seconds in a toilet and women take 90 seconds – that's 50% longer."

Women take longer to go to the bathroom then men (men have the advantage of not having to wipe after urinating), and are in the bathroom longer because they are more likely to wash and dry their hands.

Don’t get me wrong, I agree that there should be shelters for men. I don’t think that the same number of beds are needed-

After all that I have written and cited, it's very obvious that men experience rates of domestic violence much higher then thought, experience rates in similar rates to women, and under report cases of domestic violence because of police bias.

So the disparity between the amounts of beds needed for men and beds needed for women is MUCH smaller than you think.

Can you provide single links talking about rates of ‘made to penetrate’ rape? I saw a claim in there, but not a link. Likewise with the ‘women abuse more’ claim.

I left the link twice in my two replies, maybe you didn't see it?

https://www.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/hzyy86/an_older_post_about_rape/fzm1ap3?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share&context=3

The comment above holds multiple sources talking about made to penetrate rates, some by the cdc, and a couple non-cdc sources, and talks about this issue in depth.

The below comment references the NISVS state report (can just be googled)

https://www.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/hzyy86/an_older_post_about_rape/fzm4o7m?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share&context=3

The source below links to the rape section in rbomi has 4 different sources regarding certain countries laws around rape not including made to penetrate (and 2 U.S. states) as a well as a source to Mary P. Koss research methods for rape. (Again, the link doesn't work in mobile. You either have to copy and paste into chrome, or go to Chrome, r/rbomi and go to section 3.4 legal, governmental, or institutional policies and practice - Rape laws excluding male victims)

https://www.reddit.com/r/rbomi/wiki/main#wiki_4._rape_laws_excluding_male_victims

Edit: grammar

[–]medlabunicorn 1 point2 points3 points 5 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

[–]forthelove19 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

The chart in the second link doesn’t support the claim that male and female spousal homicide rates were effectively the same 50 years ago.

Elaborate?

Also, did you not see this source? https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://sites.oxy.edu/clint/evolution/articles/GenderDifferencesinPatternsandTrendsinUSHomicide1976_2015.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjWrPbN_d_rAhXGKM0KHeUQC-IQFjACegQIBhAB&usg=AOvVaw3ZHlnX2-PAZ5hcU-JekzEe

Also, did you not read anything about the "battered wife syndrome theory" that is an incredibly popular academic concept meant to explain the data from 1970-2015?

Sidr note, the original source is on liebertpub, but it's behind a behind a paywall:

https://www.liebertpub.com/doi/abs/10.1089/vio.2017.0016?journalCode=vio

Wrt ‘you’ve already posted links,’ some of those reddit posts that you thought supported your claims, did not support your claims; others had about 20 links, some of which might have supported your claims but which I wasn’t going to wade through looking for the relevant info any more than I would do a google search for you.

As far as I can see, everything regarding rape victims of "made to pentrate" which are the (posted links) being referred to supports what I'm speaking on. It's not "wading through links either"

But I'll put it here for you anyway:

First source from a 2011 CDC survey: https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/ss6308a1.htm

"an estimated 1.6% of women (or approximately 1.9 million women) were raped in the 12 months before taking the survey"

and

"The case count for men reporting rape in the preceding 12 months was too small to produce a statistically reliable prevalence estimate."

vs

"an estimated 1.7% of men were made to penetrate a perpetrator in the 12 months preceding the survey"

and

"Characteristics of Sexual Violence Perpetrators For female rape victims, an estimated 99.0% had only male perpetrators. In addition, an estimated 94.7% of female victims of sexual violence other than rape had only male perpetrators. For male victims, the sex of the perpetrator varied by the type of sexual violence experienced. The majority of male rape victims (an estimated 79.3%) had only male perpetrators. For three of the other forms of sexual violence, a majority of male victims had only female perpetrators: being made to penetrate (an estimated 82.6%), sexual coercion (an estimated 80.0%),"

"So if made to penetrate happens each year as much as rape then by most people's assumed definition of rape then men are half of rape victims. If 99% of rapists are men and 83% of "made to penetrators" are women ... then an estimated 42% of the perpetrators of nonconsensual sex in 2011 were women."

And before you think that was just one study, it wasn't. The prior year numbers have been really close between the sexes most years."

2010 survey results - https://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/pdf/cdc_nisvs_ipv_report_2013_v17_single_a.pdf

2012 survey results - https://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/pdf/NISVS-StateReportBook.pdf

2015 survey results - https://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/pdf/2015data-brief508.pdf

Scientific American - https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/sexual-victimization-by-women-is-more-common-than-previously-known

"data revealed that over one year, men and women were equally likely to experience nonconsensual sex, and most male victims reported female perpetrators. Over their lifetime, 79 percent of men who were “made to penetrate” someone else (a form of rape, in the view of most researchers) reported female perpetrators. Likewise, most men who experienced sexual coercion and unwanted sexual contact had female perpetrators."

And non CDC study...

A recent study of youth found, strikingly, that females comprise 48 percent of those who self-reported committing rape or attempted rape at age 18-19.

The Atlantic - https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2016/11/the-understudied-female-sexual-predator/503492/

Another non CDC study...

a 2014 study of 284 men and boys in college and high school found that 43 percent reported being sexually coerced, with the majority of coercive incidents resulting in unwanted sexual intercourse. Of them, 95 percent reported only female perpetrators.

And another non CDC study...

National Epidemiologic Survey on Alcohol and Related Conditions found in a sample of 43,000 adults little difference in the sex of self-reported sexual perpetrators. Of those who affirmed that they had ‘ever forced someone to have sex with you against their will,’ 43.6 percent were female and 56.4 percent were male.”

Time - http://time.com/3393442/cdc-rape-numbers

when asked about experiences in the last 12 months, men reported being “made to penetrate”—either by physical force or due to intoxication—at virtually the same rates as women reported rape (both 1.1 percent in 2010, and 1.7 and 1.6 respectively in 2011).

Regarding Mary P Koss:

She is considered the foremost expert on sexual violence in the US. She is the one that started the 1 in 4 American college women is sexually assaulted myth by counting all sorts of things the "victims" didn't. A man misinterpreting a situation going in for a kiss and then backing off when she pulls back, puts up her hand, or turns her cheek is counted as a sexual assault on a woman even if she doesn't think it was. As you hear in her own words the woman's studies professor and trusted expert that literally wrote the book on measuring prevalence of sexual violence does not call a woman drugging and riding a man bareback rape ... or even label it sexual assault ... it is merely "unwanted contact"

You see she has been saying this for decades and was instrumental in creating the methodologies most (including the US and many other government agencies around the world) use for gathering rape statistics. E.g.

Detecting the Scope of Rape : A Review of Prevalence Research Methods. Author: Mary P. Koss. Journal of Interpersonal Violence Volume: 8 Issue: 2 Dated: (June 1993) Page: 206

Although consideration of male victims is within the scope of the legal statutes, it is important to restrict the term rape to instances where male victims were penetrated by offenders. It is inappropriate to consider as a rape victim a man who engages in unwanted sexual intercourse with a woman.

Src: http://boysmeneducation.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/Koss-1993-Detecting-the-Scope-of-Rape-a-review-of-prevalence-research-methods-see-p.-206-last-paragraph.pdf

She is an advisor to the CDC, FBI, Congress, and researchers around the world and promoting the idea that men cannot be raped by women. There was a proposal to explicitly include forced envelopment in the latest FBI update to the definition of rape but after a closed door meeting with her and N.O.W. lobbiests, it mysteriously disappeared. She has many many followers and fellow researchers that follow her methodology and quote her studies. That is where most people get the idea rape is just a man on woman crime. Men are fairly rarely penetrated and it is almost always by another man.

Most people talking about sexual violence refer to the "rape" (penetrated) numbers as influenced by Mary Koss's methodologies

[–]medlabunicorn 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]forthelove191 point 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]medlabunicorn1 point 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]forthelove19 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Here is the copy and paste of the r/rbomi since you don't want to "wade through it"

Overview: Many jurisdictions have rape laws that exclude male victims to some extent or another. Sometimes this involves wording the laws so that rape is defined as something that happens to a woman, and sometimes this involves defining rape as something that only a man can do (meaning that a man can legally be raped by another man but not by a woman). Examples/evidence: In the United States, both Idaho and Georgia define rape as something that can only be done by a man to a woman [1] [2]. Outside of the United States, Switzerland defines rape as something that can only happen to a woman, as seen in Act 190 of the Swiss Criminal Code [3]:

Any person who forces a person of the female sex by threats or violence, psychological pressure or by being made incapable of resistance to submit to sexual intercourse is liable to a custodial sentence of from one to ten years.

The United Kingdom defines rape as something that only a man can do (meaning that a man can only legally be raped by another man). This is Section 1 of the Sexual Offences Act 2003 [4].

(1)A person (A) commits an offence if— (a)he intentionally penetrates the vagina, anus or mouth of another person (B) with his penis, (b)B does not consent to the penetration, and (c)A does not reasonably believe that B consents.

Mary P. Koss, influential rape researcher/activist (and professor at the University of Arizona), argues in favour of rape laws being gendered like this. Rape of men by women is only "unwanted sexual intercourse" [5]. [1] http://bit.ly/1Qw1TuJ (2010 Georgia Code, Title 16, Chapter 6, Section 1 - Rape) [2] http://bit.ly/1XQ9pqd (Idaho Statutes, Title 18, Chapter 61 - Rape) [3] http://bit.ly/1CJjNsP (Swiss Criminal Code as of 2015/1/1) [4] http://bit.ly/1KE4kcA (UK Sexual Offences Act 2003) [5] http://eric.ed.gov/?id=EJ508020 ("Detecting the Scope of Rape: A Review of Prevalence Research Methods" by Mary P. Koss)"

You can call it Gish Gallop all you want. Believe it or not, in order to debunk claims and views that are held by the vast majority of the population, especially with sensitive and controversial issues like rape and domestic violence, there are a lot of things to be discussed, and a lot of data to review.

Whether or not you decide to "wade through it" and read it (most people don't) doesn't make a difference. The amount of nuance in both of these issues is immense.

The amount of disingenuous reporting and inconsistencies and double standards in data collection methods are atrocious.

The way mainstream data is presented to paint all men as potential rapists and serial killers simply by nature of them being men and that we live in a "rape culture", so much so that you have to "teach men not to rape" is sexist (obviously) and asinine.

To call either of these issues completely "gendered issues" is being willfully ignorant, completely dismissive, and not at all very progressive or compassionate for disenfranchised victims.

[–]zoemondo 3 points4 points5 points 5 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]forthelove19 1 point2 points3 points 5 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]zoemondo 7 points8 points9 points 5 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

I consider myself a humanist, personally. I'm on board with helping out and speaking up for any group of people that has been wrongfully discriminated against.

In regards to women's rights? Eliminating sexual violence as much as possible and reproductive rights are probably the most important issues to me. Things like voting, equal opportunities, and equal pay have mostly been taken care of so far. Also old school gender norms need to be thrown out, because that would benefit everyone.

I'm not on board with hating men. No younger guys were asked to be born into this culture, just like younger women didn't ask for this bullshit either. It's what we are both stuck dealing with. It's fucking stupid to blame young guys who didn't do a damn thing wrong for all of the misogyny that has been happening for millennia. People are so divided lately on every fucking issue (gender issues or otherwise) that we forget we can actually help each other out. People don't understand that when one marginalized group gets help, it can indirectly benefit them too.

Thank you for asking! If you have more to say, I'll be happy to read it.

[–]forthelove19 -1 points0 points1 point 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

This is a great response, I especially like that you consider yourself a "humanist"

I think the "reproductive rights" issue is incredibly nuanced, and obviously there are men and women that are on both sides.

Regarding the "misogyny for a millennia" I think too many people are to quick to paint the "patriarchal structure" in an overly negative light. The reason that we had patriarchy as our main societal structure in the first place is because, for the past thousands of years in human history, it was the most beneficial and effective societal structure.

Considering that women are technically more valuable in terms of reproduction, and were also considered much more vulnerable thousands of years ago. This meant that it made more evolutionary sense for the men not just to lead, but to put their necks on the line and risk their own lives in order to protect the women in more "caveman" like times.

As humans started living longer, curing disease, and advancing technology, the need for a male lead society slowly dissipated over time, and obviously over the last sixty years we have slowly tipped the scale to be more balanced and equal as humans have become more civilized and advanced.

Not to say that there wasn't plenty of misogyny that came along with this, but I think it is silly for people to paint patriarchy as inherently "evil" because it often creates a subtext that men are inherently "evil" or malicious (that's why I always laugh when people say "if women ran the world instead, there wouldn't be any war" when in fact, European queens waged wars more often then kings did.)

Thousands of years a go it was necessary, but in today's world it is restrictive and unnecessary, so we got rid of it/ are getting rid of it.

Either way, thank you for your reply, it's nice to have civilized conversations about these things rather than hostile ones.

[+][deleted] -2 points-1 points0 points 5 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]zoemondo 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[+][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]ZombieDraco -1 points0 points1 point 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]KurkTheMagnificent -1 points0 points1 point 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Title	What is your problem with feminism?
Author	zoemondo
Upvotes	4
Comments	61
Date	September 9, 2020 9:25 PM UTC (5 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/ExRedPill
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/exredpill/comments/ippjzf/what_is_your_problem_with_feminism/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/ExRedPill/what-is-your-problem-with-feminism.270991 https://theredarchive.com/post/270991

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