is it AMA day? cool. My husband stays home to raise our child, AMA.

philomexa · 2015-10-27T18:41:45+00:00

I always felt like our relationship was a bit of an outlier per pop culture and RP generalities. Figured I'd give it a shot explaining how it works....

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Yeah, if it works for you, that's great! We tend to be like that on specific things, just not all the things.

For example - i can't make food related decisions when I'm already hungry. I just can't manage it, I never know what I want to eat. So we either make a plan ahead of time, or I need his help to pick out a couple of options, and then we decide what is most easily doable (doability is the biggest issue because we don't eat out, we always cook at the house.) Sometimes, I just can't manage it, and he takes over. Other times, I do, because he's busy with work.

I tend to take the lead on cleaning and laundry. He can tolerate a lot more mess than I can. BUT he's a lot better about sticking to bedtime. When he says it's time for bed and turns off the light, that's it.

Anyway, it works.

[–]philomexaIF THE POISON WON'T TAKE YOU MY DOGS WILL[S] 2 points3 points4 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

oh! didn't see your edit here's my answers:

I'm glad I have the option to work, and I've recently realized I'm good at it. So sure, I'm glad I'm able to work.

Regarding missing out, well, I'm kind of wistful that I won't be there for most of the "firsts" (first steps, first words, etc) but I don't think I'm missing out on too much since I make up for it during the evening and over the weekend.

I make more money, and I also come from a wealthy family. No it doesn't bother me, I've said else where I don't value an economic contribution, probably because I know I can rely of family money if things went tits up. So having a man provide for me never had any appeal.

No, I don't think I could work from home. I only lasted 10 weeks on maternity leave (with the ability to work from home) before I felt like I was losing my mind. I need to interact with the 'adult business world' to feel useful, whereas my husband chafes at meetings, conference calls, TPS reports, corporate culture, etc.

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What is contradictory about being equal partners with complementary skills and contributions? I'm not going to be able to teach the kids how to play guitar, because I don't play. He won't be able to teach them other languages, because he only speaks one.

We have different skills, strengths, interests, and hobbies. We overlap at about 30% of our shared activities, but it's growing as he becomes more involved in raising a kid, and I become a more experienced gamer. Still, we think 50% overlap is about optimal. We are also both perfectly good cooks, and about equally motivated to keep the house in order. We complement each other. That doesn't require either of us to be a leader and the other a follower. It doesn't require a hierarchy.

It's really not that complicated. I think it would be way more complicated to navigate a hierarchy or communicate through signs and signals instead of openly saying what we mean.

Arguably, the kind of relationship we have is only possible because we both have several years of Cognitive Behavioural Therapy behind us. We use a lot of the same language to communicate wants, needs, and expectations. We also communicate verbally way beyond normal couples, I've observed. We tend to establish consent for sexual activities out loud pretty much every time we engage in anything. And it happens very naturally. We spend time talking about what it working and what is not working, pretty much every week. This prevents the build up of resentment or the chance that we will start communicating strategically and not openly.

It probably helps that we are both high IQ and possibly a little bit on the spectrum. We find the thing that unites us most is a mutual respect for each other's ability to think clearly and rationally, even about issues in which we are deeply emotionally invested (for example - really, really wanting to cohabit, but choosing to delay because in the long run its the more fiscally responsible choice, and will result in greater future happiness.) Neither of us could tolerate being in a relationship with someone we didn't respect as our intellectual equal.

Anyway, I don't really think it's that complex. We fit together well. We meet each other's needs. We have some skills and interests that overlap and compete, and others where one excels. It works.

[–][deleted] -1 points0 points1 point 10 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

What is contradictory about being equal partners with complementary skills and contributions?

1) There is no such thing as two people being in an exactly "equal" relationship. If you said your relationship was "fair", then I'd agree. But "equal" implies precise 50/50 division and distribution of everything. Relationships do not work that way -- never have and never will.

Moreover, in any relationship between any two people, one is always dominant and the other is always submissive. The dom and sub roles change and shift from time to time and from person to person, but one always occupies the dom role which forces the other into the sub role, or vice versa. It won't work any other way.

2) You've used the word "complementary" differently from how I've seen it used. The way I've always seen it used is in the context of men having their particular skills and women having theirs; and the two complementing each other. The way you've used it is peculiar to you and your partner; not to men and women in general.

Thanks for explaining it.

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Not married.

And.... well that's probably a bit of an overstatement on my part. We defer to each other on things all the time. But I defer to him when I either a) do not care about the outcome and he does or b) when we have both laid out our plans, and I've decided that his seems like the better/more efficient/more rational option. That's about 50% of the time. The other 50%, I've got the better plan, or I care more about the outcome, and he defers to me.

But that's not about dominance and submission, that's about rationally evaluating who presents the better solution to a problem, and then agreeing on that solution, and working together to make it happen. Often, we come to a collaborative conclusion that meets everyone's needs better than either of us could have done on our own.

Decision-making in our lives involves a lot of tables and spreadsheets. I heart spreadsheets. We made a decision about when to move in together based on a couple of spreadsheets, a year in advance, actually.

[–][deleted] -1 points0 points1 point 10 years ago* (7 children) | Copy Link

What if there is a tie between you? What if you are diametrically opposed in resolving a particular issue -- you want to use one course of action, and he wants to use a very different one. You cannot do both, and you cannot craft a compromise. You MUST do one or the other. And you cannot beg off and do "neither". YOu have to select one course of action which will necessarily foreclose the other.

EDIT: And you both feel very, very strongly about the correctness of your respective desired courses and outcomes. Either course could turn out OK factually; but you both have very good reasons for not wanting to go the other's route.

One of you is going to lose this one. One of you is not going to get what they want.

Who selects the course of action? Who breaks the tie? Who makes the final decision?

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[–]dallasdarling8 points9 points10 points 10 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

It's a good theoretical question, though it's hard to imagine two diametrically opposed options that are both equally rational. The only way that happens is if they are motivated by two completely different core values - that is, that we consider different things to be more important in weighing what is the most correct outcome. While that hasn't happened yet, I imagine it will.

It's still hard to imagine there there isn't any measure, any where, that we could select to break the tie. So, most likely, we would consult other people for advice and input.

Does the decision affect the child in our family? What would be in her best interest?
What do our respective parents think? How much to we weigh those opinions, based on their past experiences and failings.
What do our respective therapists think? What would be best for the mental health of the most people in the family?

I also think it's important to note that this decision would not happen in isolation. It would be one of several such instances, and it's perfectly reasonable to say that, in these cases, if there is literally NO way to rationally resolve the question, we would agree to trade off on who gets to make the call, and flip a coin for who goes first. Probably best out of ten, to be honest. And we'd each flip 5 of them.

The other thing to pull out of this that really, really makes little sense to me, is this line of yours:

One of you is going to lose this one.

There is no losing. It's not a zero-sum game. We aren't negotiating to see who wins or loses. We are trying to decide what is best for BOTH of us, not each get our own way. If I'm this confident in my option over his, its because I think it will be better for him than his option will be, not just better for me.

Which is why this consequence:

One of you is not going to get what they want.

Is moot. Yes, sure, one of us will have to make a compromise in the short term. But the other one will get exactly what they were hoping for. If my partner is happy and got the outcome he wanted and which believes will result in the best possible outcome for all three (or more!) of us, then I win too. If we go my route, he wins too. Because we're a team. We're not in competition. He might not have wanted to go my route, but once it's decided, we're in it together. The goal of the game is not to get your own way, it's to come to a decision and then work as a team to make it happen. The decision is the win, and it's a win for both of us.

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I don't know why you could imagine a woman thinking these things but not a man?

I don't know, but that's my reality.

I was a full-time SAHD and now work half-time and am full-time "house husband"/SAHD.

My wife is definitely not happy with the situation, even though she had a deep ambivalence regarding the idea of giving up her career to be a SAHM. On the one hand, she wants to be a SAHM more than anything, and on the other, she's afraid of it.

Our current situation stresses her out to a ridiculous level. She hates that the family is reliant on her earnings alone (I make a decent chunk of change in my work, but nothing like what she makes). She hates the lack of freedom she feels regarding her career (prior to the kid and my staying home, she used to quit her job and move companies about every two years to take new, higher positions because I always provided a stable income).

I'm a different kind of SAHP than she would be, and that is a source of frustration and resentment. I'm not nearly as efficient dealing with all the mundane shit at home, though I do have to perform both roles - I have to do all the "wife/mom" stuff and all the "husband/dad" stuff. Stuff that I would have to do even if I were working full-time (like mowing the lawn, yard maintenance, house maintenance, car maintenance, etc.).

To say that she feels like I've failed her and that she doesn't respect me is an understatement, lol. It's been super hard on both of us.

I would have no problem being the breadwinner. I would have no problem with her being a SAHM/housewife, even if her abilities were questionable (as mine sometimes are), provided she still showed me love and affection. It's just totally different.

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Edit: this ended up way longer than I thought. I just wanted to point out that something that may not clash with your reality definitely does with mine.

I'm sorry about your situation. That sucks. I'm curious - do you have any problem being the SAHD apart from your wife's disapproval? Do you feel like less of a man because your wife is no longer treating you like one, or is it inherent in the position itself?

Would you at least consider my reality? In which both my parents were raised in pretty traditional backgrounds. My mom has a college education whereas my dad didn't have the opportunity. So while he ran the company (construction) on the ground, my mom got her contractor's license and ran smaller construction jobs while also dealing with all the finances. She also had a separate job as a sports journalist for a small publication. After I was born (their first), my mom went back to work after a few weeks and I spent most of my time with my grandparents and cousins. I think it was after their 3rd was born that she finally agreed to take time off for the hectic parenting schedule.

Flash forward: My dad was critically injured about 10 years ago and without any other skills was unable to go back to work. Since then, my mom has gone back to full-time work. Obviously the financial stress on my family was enormous. He told me that he had really missed the feeling of being so successful that mom could stay home for a few years, but at the same time he actually knew she would be happy to be back out there. After a few months of staying at home, he confided in me that he did feel emasculated, but it had nothing to do with my mother or how she treated him. The source of these feelings were completely internal and had everything to do with how he was raised and the expectations he put on himself. He eventually came to express a great deal of respect for my mom being able to give up the active and fulfilling working lifestyle for the years prior. He was married before and said his ex-wife never would have stuck around and dealt with what happened to him. He said marrying a woman as strong as my mother was the best decision he ever made. He would be close enough to retirement now anyways so he sees his thriving family as what makes him an accomplished man. I think that's always what defined success for him. I would say their relationship is stronger than average, if the average is represented on this sub.

So that's my experience. A relationship in which that relationship and the family it created are the most important things, and either partner is willing and happy to step up when the time is right. Both my parents are hard workers at heart who enjoy their children equally.

I would still consider my parents and my family to be very traditional. So when people talk about women not being ok with their husbands being SAHDs or whatever, that clashes with my reality. Obviously everything should be taken on a case-by-case basis, but a story like my parents' makes me think that the patterns we see as gender differences are the result of people being conditioned to have certain expectations of themselves or others based on gender.

[–]nomdplumeFormer Alpha2 points3 points4 points 10 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

The source of these feelings were completely internal and had everything to do with how he was raised and the expectations he put on himself.

I definitely can source a lot of my feeling emasculated to this.

The difference, however, is that I'm guessing that your mom didn't have babies/young children at home at the time? I know my wife feels a lot of guilt around not being a bigger part of my son's life, feels a lot of pressure to provide a good life for him, and feels a lot of resentment that she's had to miss out on so much (she would spend 24/7 with him if she could).

I know she doesn't want to resent me for how things turned out, but being resentful in general, it's hard not to.

So my own feelings of inadequacy are compounded by her general attitude about the situation and the resulting guilt that it creates in me. They make me extra sensitive to her slights, which just sends us both on a downward spiral. And my own weakness in that area drives her to distraction, as she despises weakness in everyone, so that goes double for her husband.

To get out of the hole, I've got to not only reclaim my own sense of masculinity, but not let her view of my masculinity bring me back down.

the patterns we see as gender differences are the result of people being conditioned to have certain expectations of themselves or others based on gender.

I don't disagree with this, though I don't think it is entirely conditioning. Again, nature vs nurture. For me, I can see both at play.

I want my wife to feel safe, cared for, and protected. I want her to feel that our son is safe, cared for, and protected. Seeing her afraid, crying, stressed, callous, cynical, having to be "masculine", whatever, is more painful than having that stuff happen to me. Is that social conditioning? Maybe. If it is, it goes all the way to the core.

Likewise, my wife wants to be able to focus everything she has on our son. He is everything to her, her entire life. Is she conditioned to feel that way? Honestly, I don't think so. I've never seen anything quite like the mother-child bond and relationship. It has made her seem almost a completely different person. I feel like (and she vehemently believes) that pervasive and transformational has to come, to a large extent, from nature.

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But that's a bit different since that's definitely out of "baby" phase.

Yeah, I don't know for sure, of course, but I think it would be very different.

For one thing, they are out of the house more. Even if the wife wanted to be with them more, it's not really an option (unless she homeschools), so she may feel less like she's missing out by being at work.

Though I know that my wife has an incredibly strong "nesting instinct" (which is definitely not something that was very predominant when we were first married, lol - talk about a change!), so I still think there is a powerful draw to be home.

I have heard of this magical bond between mothers and their children but my father was actually the more enthusiastic parent and remains baby-crazy to this day.

Oh, don't get me wrong - I experienced an incredible bond with my son. One that far surpassed what I saw from many other dads at the time. I was in love with him at a whole 'nother level from any other "in love", right from the moment he was born. Literally, I loved him more every single new day when I never even thought it would be possible to love him more, lol. I will be forever grateful for having gotten to experience what I did. I just wish my getting that experience hadn't taken the toll that it did on, well, everything else in my life, lol.

I'm not-at-all baby crazy, but I am still completely and utterly in love with my son, lol.

His whole motivation for working or being successful has ALWAYS been to have a family

Yeah, I always had a deep ambivalence regarding having kids - working and being successful wasn't about having a family, for me.

On the one hand, I really enjoyed my life and my marriage and all of the cool shit we got to do together. On the other hand, I had a "you don't know what you don't know - do you really want to miss out on something so huge?" question that wouldn't leave me be.

And my wife was a lot that way when she was younger, but that changed dramatically as she got older until it became a pretty contentious subject in our house. She really wishes I was more like your dad, lol.

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As a man who has supported a SAHW for the better part of 15 years, I can tell you that the only reason a man would resent doing it is when the wife is ungrateful, refuses to do her work appointed to her as an SAHW, and treats him like shit.

A man does not lose respect for a wife who stays home to rear kids and to care for and keep the marital home. Nor does a man resent it -- on the contrary; he absolutely loves it. Nor does his love for such a woman diminish merely because she works at home.

IME, women do not want to be primary breadwinners. They especially do not want to support an adult man. They just don't want to do it. They just do not believe they should have to do it. Every woman I have ever known voices these feelings. They'll do it if they have to but they hate it and they make their displeasure about it known. Essentially what they say about it is "He's a grown ass man; he should be working and earning money."

Years ago a writer named Sandra Tsing Loh wrote about this. She was married to the father of her kid. The man was a househusband who she supported financially. She cheated on him and divorced him, candidly stating she couldn't be attracted to a man she was supporting. She coined a name for househusbands whose wives support them financially. She called her now ex-husband a "kitchen bitch".

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I definitely agree with you on the generational thing, the younger males I know all seem to want and love females that work and help bring in income, they don't do many of the classic "gentlemanly" gestures (always opening doors for you, buying flowers, always paying for everything, etc).

It's such a drastic difference the way slightly older generation males treat and see females, I find it kind of bizarre and unsettling the way they treat you like a beautiful fragile doll creature or something, whereas boys my generation just seem to treat girls as total equals, don't do any of the pointless "gentleman" gestures but have absolute respect for us as equals, obviously not ALL men in the younger generation are totally there yet, but it's such a clear improvement from even 1 generation back.

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[–]philomexaIF THE POISON WON'T TAKE YOU MY DOGS WILL[S] 2 points3 points4 points 10 years ago* (1 child) | Copy Link

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[–]SirNemesistitties not tithe-3 points-2 points-1 points 10 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]philomexaIF THE POISON WON'T TAKE YOU MY DOGS WILL[S] 4 points5 points6 points 10 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]SirNemesistitties not tithe-1 points0 points1 point 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]philomexaIF THE POISON WON'T TAKE YOU MY DOGS WILL[S] 3 points4 points5 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Title	is it AMA day? cool. My husband stays home to raise our child, AMA.
Author	philomexa
Upvotes	13
Comments	113
Date	October 27, 2015 6:41 PM UTC (10 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/3qgcjk/is_it_ama_day_cool_my_husband_stays_home_to_raise/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/is-it-ama-day-cool-my-husband-stays-home-to-raise.278799 https://theredarchive.com/post/278799

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