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Common Critiques of The Red Pill

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April 20, 2013
34 upvotes

I wanted to have an on-hand url to link to when people make one of the common red pill critiques, since I'm tired of rewriting the same thing over and over.

The Red Pill is Misogyny

False. I'm going to break this answer into two parts.

Part One

There is no systemic hatred of women here. The red pill is a subreddit dedicated to helping men find the truth regarding inter-gender relations. The sad truth is, a lot of these men were raised to believe a set of values that are no longer relevant in today's culture, and yet our culture continues to propagate these values. Men find themselves repeatedly failing when trying to do the simplest and most human task of all: Finding love.

Finding love isn't an unreasonable goal, everybody should have their shot at happiness. Or so we are told. But these men quickly find that the learned traits and behaviors they grew up with, the ones re-enforced by popular media (movies, tv), the ones their mothers and fathers advocated, they actually work against them if they are to find a mate. It actually makes them unsuccessful.

Of course upon hearing the reality of what it is that makes some men successful with women, the first gut reaction is typically denial. There's no way any of this is true. It contradicts everything I've ever known and heard. Nobody agrees with it. Heck, if I ask a girl if any of this is true, she'll be disgusted at the very concept... it must be wrong!

But nevertheless, here we are, discovering these theories and truths, and putting them into practice on the field, and getting real results.

We call learning and internalizing the red pill "swallowing the pill" or "unplugging." Yes, it's a cheesy Matrix reference, but it's an apt metaphor. Ultimately the pill is a bitter one, it pulls the proverbial carpet from underneath your feet. Everything you believed about society, marriage, relationships, women, it's all wrong. You've been lied to.

It's a very difficult transition between being plugged in and really understanding the concepts here. Often this transition is met with anger. This is a normal step in the transition.

Why would people lie to me? Why would mom lie to me? Why would my girlfriend lie to me? Why would society lie to me?

This stage usually doesn't last too long, but does come with it's share of venting. Is it hatred of women? It is not. It's anger towards every person, group, and system that has propagated lies. And rightfully so. I believe anger is an important step. It's the first real step in taking control of one's own life and understanding happiness is yours to take if you want it.

But this is not to be confused with a systemic hatred of women. While these men may curse god and all that live on this planet, this is anger, and not directed hatred. It's important to note that when somebody says, "how can women do something like XYZ??" It is an expression of anger a perceived injustice.

Our critics would like to paint this anger as hatred. It's a temporary anger, and as we learn the theories and concepts here, it's an anger that fades. It's difficult to really grasp a different world view, and the red pill changes everything we know.

When men begin to realize that their goals are unrealistic, and begin to understand more about our theories and what we've labeled the feminine imperative, an understanding of what the lies are that are propagated, and why they are told.

This transforms anger into something constructive: understanding and setting new goals. With new goals, happiness can be achieved.

This is not the systemic hatred of women. This is introspection and understanding, and all the emotional outcomes of the process.

Now, you've probably noticed, we do heavily critique women's mating strategy, we analyze the public face on their strategies, the rationalizations they make for their actions that they readily admit to on threads in askwomen or relationships. This does not constitute hatred, and anybody trying to conflate the two is disingenuous and flatly wrong. Critique and hatred are two very different things.

Part Two

The term misogyny is a thought terminating cliche. We disallow it's usage in any way that isn't' strictly ironic on our sub because the term itself is terribly meaningless and serves no other purpose but to attach a negative stigma to a very real experience these men are having. The term itself is part of what we refer to as the feminine imperative, because it's only real usage is for shaming men and ensuring their obedience.

The very act of discussing ideas that are different or not specifically politically correct is what draws this fire, the accusation of misogyny. Ultimately, our culture attempts to shame instead of understand where we are coming from. Instead of debate with reason, the term "misogyny" rears its ugly head. It's an emotional trick, to try to stigmatise our subreddit- and it always points to one logical conclusion: If there were a solid logical argument against the red pill, would opponents not rather use those instead of cheap tricks like the word "misogyny?"

Usage of the word misogyny accomplishes precisely the goal of those using it, not to encourage an open discussion or debate the merits of red pill ideology, but instead to stifle conversation, to ensure arguments are not heard over the cries of "misogyny." Any who attempt to defend it be wary, as they themselves will associate with said misogyny, and themselves risk the label misogynist. Instead of having to reason on merit, they declare evil the very debate itself. An effective tool to silence people. Except, of course, not any more, since we really don't care.


I'll be adding more in the near future, and sidebaring this.


Post Information
Title Common Critiques of The Red Pill
Author redpillschool
Upvotes 34
Comments 18
Date 20 April 2013 04:48 PM UTC (7 years ago)
Subreddit TheRedPill
Link https://theredarchive.com/post/4033
Original Link https://old.reddit.com/r/TheRedPill/comments/1cqye1/common_critiques_of_the_red_pill/
Similar Posts

Red Pill terms found in post:
the red pillfeminine imperative
Comments

[–]telnet_reddit_80 28 points29 points  (28 children) | Copy

If this is meant for actual critics, then it's way too long. They don't even bother with scanning the headlines here.

Maybe at least add some bolded cliff notes? Something like...

This subreddit is about actual sex and gender relations, not some idealized version, whether feminist, religious, or hollywood. Posts and comments may seem harsh or insensitive but reality knows no bias, hate or discrimination. It just is.

[–]Endorsed ContributorrebuildingMyself 40 points41 points  (0 children) | Copy

My favorite circlejerk comment to that:

What I find interesting about it is that it's this amazing combination of functional advice and broken perspective. The things they tell young men to do really do work, but it's immersed in waaaayyy too much othering and shaming of women.

Translation: It's the truth, but they say it so meeeannn.

[–]phattsao 14 points15 points  (0 children) | Copy

Yeah, judging by the comments in your link these people didn't actually read anything, they just said ""misogny?! Better downvote so I look good to the women reading this!"

[–]Modredpillschool[S] 18 points19 points  (2 children) | Copy

Short sound bites are what people are already refuting and mischaracterizing. I don't care to shorten. People can decide not to read it, I'm not going to make that decision for them.

[–]thecajunone 3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy

Don't shorten. This is for the sidebar and it's well written.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

I agree, if a person can't read and comprehend a few paragraphs like this, and they need a tldr version, they probably lack the intelligence to consider a different viewpoint anyway.

[–]Piranhapoodle 4 points5 points  (16 children) | Copy

This subreddit is about actual sex and gender relations

My honest critique is that the subreddit seems to be mostly about how to improve one's chances of getting laid, while the sidebar says it's supposed to be about: "How to live, find success and happiness in an era of Feminism." If people make such a big deal about being sexually successful, aren't they still being kind of desperate? If you improve your self esteem to be more successful with the ladies, aren't you still defining your self esteem based on how women regard you? It doesn't seem very red pill to me.

[–]telnet_reddit_80 5 points6 points  (11 children) | Copy

If people make such a big deal about being sexually successful, aren't they still being kind of desperate?

If people make such a big deal about money, aren't they desperate? If people make such a big deal about a diploma, aren't they desperate? If you make more money, publish another article, or press another 10kg, aren't you still defining your self-worth on how much money you make, how your career is going, or how fit you are?

Do you only know two emotional states: uncaring apathy and desperation? Are you going to explain to /r/Fitness how desperate they are?

That has got to be the greatest damage caused by the whole self-esteem movement. People now genuinely believe that there's something wrong about deriving it from achievement. As if there was any other source.

[–]Piranhapoodle 1 point2 points  (10 children) | Copy

If people make such a big deal about money, aren't they desperate? If people make such a big deal about a diploma, aren't they desperate? If you make more money, publish another article, or press another 10kg, aren't you still defining your self-worth on how much money you make, how your career is going, or how fit you are?

Do you only know two emotional states: uncaring apathy and desperation? Are you going to explain to /r/Fitness how desperate they are?

No, but I do notice that this subreddit is focusing almost exclusively on improving oneself in order to get laid. Being sexually successful seems to be extremely important and may even be at the base of all the problems mentioned here. Why care so much? Who cares what these silly women think of you? As for /r/fitness, one can desire fitness for other reasons than for the praise and pussy of women.

That has got to be the greatest damage caused by the whole self-esteem movement. People now genuinely believe that there's something wrong about deriving it from achievement. As if there was any other source.

Achievement as a source of self esteem is fine! But if you're so focused on achieving in order for women to approve of you... that doesn't seem to me as very strong. That's what I'm saying.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy

If you are the type of person that just likes to coast through life and not actively improve yourself and your knowledge in all areas, this subreddit aint for you.

[–]Piranhapoodle 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

You're not reading my full sentences:

I do notice that this subreddit is focusing almost exclusively on improving oneself in order to get laid.

I'm saying that improving yourself can also be intrinsically rewarding and good. Doing it only to get more approval from attractive women is weak.

[–]telnet_reddit_80 2 points3 points  (4 children) | Copy

I do notice that this subreddit is focusing

That's a feature of subreddits -- focus.

almost exclusively on improving oneself in order to get laid

But that's obviously not true, even if you just scan the headlines -- there's mating strategy, there's social commentary on feminism, Dawkins on A+, there are threads calling out trolls, SRS... "improving oneself in order to get laid" not only doesn't dominate the page, it barely makes the cut.

Why care so much?

Why care so much you can bench press? Why care how fast your website loads? Why care if your suit fits? Why care about anything? Should /r/fitness, web_design, or mfa expect your questioning on why they're so desperate? You could ask those questions about any human endeavour and interest. And many don't even end with an orgasm.

Do you have absolutely no drive? No curiosity? Do you honestly cannot fathom the idea that some people may want to have an understanding of the world around them?

if you're so focused on achieving in order for women to approve of you...

Approval is not really the point. You're projecting here.

[–]Piranhapoodle 0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy

But that's obviously not true, even if you just scan the headlines -- there's mating strategy, there's social commentary on feminism, Dawkins on A+, there are threads calling out trolls, SRS... "improving oneself in order to get laid" not only doesn't dominate the page, it barely makes the cut.

Red pill examples: how to behave when you want to get laid. Blue pill examples: how not to behave when you want to get laid. Red pill theory: why behaving this way will get you laid. Many other articles are aimed at helping you to become more red pill and increase your sexual value. Then there are some meta articles which are not about the subject but about discussing it.

Why care so much you can bench press? Why care how fast your website loads? Why care if your suit fits? Why care about anything? Should /r/fitness, web_design, or mfa expect your questioning on why they're so desperate? You could ask those questions about any human endeavour and interest. And many don't even end with an orgasm. Do you have absolutely no drive? No curiosity? Do you honestly cannot fathom the idea that some people may want to have an understanding of the world around them?

The question doesn't apply to those subreddits because they don't claim to be about "How to live, find success and happiness in an era of Feminism" while focusing only on one aspect of life. If having hobbies, learning, making or enjoying art, doing science, improving the world etc. are not intrinsically enjoyable to you but only done to get more pussy, you are reducing these awesome activities to mere tools.

Approval is not really the point. You're projecting here.

Women showing you that they think you're a suitable mate, how is that not approval?

[–]telnet_reddit_80 0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy

Red pill examples

Read the headlines. It's not a webcomic.

The question doesn't apply to those subreddits because they don't claim to be about "How to live, find success and happiness in an era of Feminism" while focusing only on one aspect of life.

Focusing on one thing is the point of a subreddit so the question apply to almost all subreddits. MFA is almost solely about dressing well, why care about it? Don't you think it's desperate to care so much about appearance?

If having hobbies, learning, making or enjoying art, doing science, improving the world etc. are not intrinsically enjoyable to you but only done to get more pussy, you are reducing these awesome activities to mere tools.

You're the only one who's doing it. You do realize just like people can subscribe to multiple subreddits, they can have multiple interests in life, right?

Women showing you that they think you're a suitable mate, how is that not approval?

You're having sex for approval? Were your parents emotionally unavailable when you were a kid?

Listen, you're projecting your own problems. People generally don't seek approval through sex, it just feel great, even on a purely physical level. Neither do they chase hobbies just to get more pussy (with the possible exception of guitar, I don't trust guys on this one).

And having sex doesn't really stop you from having hobbies or interests that you enjoy. It doesn't also make you desperate. However, if you think otherwise, there's a sub for you too: /r/mgtow.

[–]Piranhapoodle 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

Focusing on one thing is the point of a subreddit so the question apply to almost all subreddits. MFA is almost solely about dressing well, why care about it? Don't you think it's desperate to care so much about appearance?

You're the only one who's doing it. You do realize just like people can subscribe to multiple subreddits, they can have multiple interests in life, right?

My critique was not that is was focused on a single topic. My critique was that the subreddit does so while claiming to be aimed at finding out how to live a good, happy life and not caring about what women think of you. This goal is great! But it doesn't match the submissions which are time and again about: "How do I change myself and my views so women will have sex with me." or "Look at this loser with whom no-one wants to have sex." As if you're only a worthy man if you get laid. This is a very narrow and nasty view and does not speak of independence and maturity at all.

You're having sex for approval? Were your parents emotionally unavailable when you were a kid? Listen, you're projecting your own problems. People generally don't seek approval through sex, it just feel great, even on a purely physical level. Neither do they chase hobbies just to get more pussy (with the possible exception of guitar, I don't trust guys on this one). And having sex doesn't really stop you from having hobbies or interests that you enjoy. It doesn't also make you desperate. However, if you think otherwise, there's a sub for you too: /r/mgtow.

Of course sex is a source of self-esteem to many. Look around at all the insecure beta's and virgins who feel like they fail in life because they don't have sex. Look at all the alpha's boasting about their sexual conquests. Look at how important erectile function is to self esteem. Instead of saying: "Oh well, luckily there's much more to life." the subreddit's content is teaching people that they need to turn their whole life around and learn to act in a certain way in order to become more sexually desirable. As if that's the most important thing one can achieve! That's just nonsense!

[–]telnet_reddit_80 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

My critique was that the subreddit does so while claiming to be aimed at finding out how to live a good, happy life and not caring about what women think of you

So you think that we don't cover the topics from the description comprehensively enough? That's it? Well, in that case, the description was probably written by /u/redpillschool and I'd demand a refund from him.

it doesn't match the submissions which are time and again about: "How do I change myself and my views so women will have sex with me."

No. The goal is not to "how do I change myself and my views so women will have sex with me" but to "change my views so that they fit intersubjectively observable reality." The goal is to align your views with reality, not with women's opinions.

Once you know that women generally like jerks or sexists, you can either take advantage of it, or not (accepting the opportunity cost as the price for whatever values you hold). But you're making an informed decision. You know what you gain or give up and for what reason.

Of course sex is a source of self-esteem to many. Look around at all the insecure beta's and virgins who feel like they fail in life because they don't have sex. Look at all the alpha's boasting about their sexual conquests.

You're conflating sex with approval seeking again. Approaching a girl, "opening," engaging in a conversation, bouncing it to a café nearby, then drinks, then your place is a great rush. Not unlike choking out a guy above your weight class in judo, or making a big sale. But it has nothing to do with seeking approval. It's an achievement on its own, not because your trainer pats you on the back, or the manager tells you that he likes your work.

Corollary: missing out on those doesn't feel so great.

subreddit's content is teaching people that they need to turn their whole life around and learn to act in a certain way in order to become more sexually desirabl

Simply not true. You may read it like that but that's not our doing, that's you and your biology (and I still think there are some abandonment issues there if sex is an expression of approval for you).

[–]ProductivityMonster -1 points0 points  (2 children) | Copy

What is the problem with men improving so they can get the rewards they were promised when they were younger, one of which is a woman? A new mating strategy has to be learned and practiced. It is only one aspect of self improvement.

[–]Piranhapoodle 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

If having hobbies, learning, making or enjoying art, doing science, improving the world etc. are not intrinsically enjoyable to you but only done to get more pussy, you are reducing these awesome activities to mere tools and you are still shaping your life according to what women want.



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