It's not logical to discount feminism because you think they all hate men

bufedad · 2021-04-28T00:08:08+00:00

Let me ask you a question... would you discount a movement where any part fought to make men raping women legal? Would you support said movement because it claims to be about equality?

No, you wouldn't.

We live up to that standard and we discount feminism for the bigoted and hateful actions that they take. Actions, that you would never be associated with if they were reversed.

To be clear, I'm stating, in no uncertain terms, that feminists have fought to protect female rapists, and successfully defeated legislative measures to make women raping men (and boys... yes children) illegal.

2021-04-27T23:36:38+00:00

Karen Straughan's response to "those aren't real feminists"

The following is a very informed and highly reusable comment by Karen Straughan in response to a feminist who thinks the many blatant sexists among feminists aren't real feminists:

So what you're saying is that you, a commenter using a username on an internet forum are the true feminist, and the feminists actually responsible for changing the laws, writing the academic theory, teaching the courses, influencing the public policies, and the massive, well-funded feminist organizations with thousands and thousands of members all of whom call themselves feminists... they are not "real feminists".

That's not just "no true Scotsman". That's delusional self deception.

Listen, if you want to call yourself a feminist, I don't care. I've been investigating feminism for more than 9 years now, and people like you used to piss me off, because to my mind all you were doing was providing cover and ballast for the powerful political and academic feminists you claim are just jerks. And believe me, they ARE jerks. If you knew half of what I know about the things they've done under the banner of feminism, maybe you'd stop calling yourself one.

But I want you to know. You don't matter. You're not the director of the Feminist Majority Foundation and editor of Ms. Magazine, Katherine Spillar, who said of domestic violence: "Well, that's just a clean-up word for wife-beating," and went on to add that regarding male victims of dating violence, "we know it's not girls beating up boys, it's boys beating up girls."

You're not Jan Reimer, former mayor of Edmonton and long-time head of Alberta's Network of Women's Shelters, who just a few years ago refused to appear on a TV program discussing male victims of domestic violence, because for her to even show up and discuss it would lend legitimacy to the idea that they exist.

You're not Mary P Koss, who describes male victims of female rapists in her academic papers as being not rape victims because they were "ambivalent about their sexual desires" (if you don't know what that means, it's that they actually wanted it), and then went on to define them out of the definition of rape in the CDC's research because it's inappropriate to consider what happened to them rape.

You're not the National Organization for Women, and its associated legal foundations, who lobbied to replace the gender neutral federal Family Violence Prevention and Services Act of 1984 with the obscenely gendered Violence Against Women Act of 1994. The passing of that law cut male victims out of support services and legal assistance in more than 60 passages, just because they were male.

You're not the Florida chapter of the NOW, who successfully lobbied to have Governor Rick Scott veto not one, but two alimony reform bills in the last ten years, bills that had passed both houses with overwhelming bipartisan support, and were supported by more than 70% of the electorate.

You're not the feminist group in Maryland who convinced every female member of the House on both sides of the aisle to walk off the floor when a shared parenting bill came up for a vote, meaning the quorum could not be met and the bill died then and there.

You're not the feminists in Canada agitating to remove sexual assault from the normal criminal courts, into quasi-criminal courts of equity where the burden of proof would be lowered, the defendant could be compelled to testify, discovery would go both ways, and defendants would not be entitled to a public defender.

You're not Professor Elizabeth Sheehy, who wrote a book advocating that women not only have the right to murder their husbands without fear of prosecution if they make a claim of abuse, but that they have the moral responsibility to murder their husbands.

You're not the feminist legal scholars and advocates who successfully changed rape laws such that a woman's history of making multiple false allegations of rape can be excluded from evidence at trial because it's "part of her sexual history."

You're not the feminists who splattered the media with the false claim that putting your penis in a passed-out woman's mouth is "not a crime" in Oklahoma, because the prosecutor was incompetent and charged the defendant under an inappropriate statute (forcible sodomy) and the higher court refused to expand the definition of that statute beyond its intended scope when there was already a perfectly good one (sexual battery) already there. You're not the idiot feminists lying to the public and potentially putting women in Oklahoma at risk by telling potential offenders there's a "legal" way to rape them.

And you're none of the hundreds or thousands of feminist scholars, writers, thinkers, researchers, teachers and philosophers who constructed and propagate the body of bunkum theories upon which all of these atrocities are based.

You're the true feminist. Some random person on the internet.

EricAllonde · 2021-04-27T23:18:15+00:00

"I don't hate men, I have a boyfriend/husband" is the feminist equivalent of "I'm not racist, I have a black friend".

Feminism is a hate-fueled ideology. Baked into the feminist belief system is a dismissal of male issues & men's suffering and blame of men for all of the minor inconveniences and ordinary life challenges privileged western feminists obsess over. That's what fuels the hate which builds up and spills over feminist catch-cries like "Kill all men", "men are trash" and demands for revenge.

In terms of emotional maturity, feminists are like spoilt three year old children. Whenever men say, "No, we won't just give you a lolly. You're a grown up, you can work for it and earn it yourself the same as everyone else does", feminist entitlement flips into outrage and a massive tantrum. Then they rage with hatred against men for denying them, when all men did was play the necessary role of responsible adult to their spoilt child.

tenchineuro · 2021-04-28T00:10:19+00:00

I see a lot of that on here. It doesn't make sense to use that as an excuse to not engage.

Engage with whom?

Many feminists have men in their lives whom they love

Whom they write laws against you mean. The feminist VAWA + Duluth model literally directs police to arrest male DV victims of females. Here's Karen Straughan's brief summary of the Duluth Model.

Duluth is predicated on the "patriarchal terrorism" paradigm of partner violence. That is, men beat their female partners in order to assert masculine dominance within their relationships. Their motives are to conform to patriarchal norms and to reify a the patriarchal social/political/cultural order of male dominance and female subordination within the home.
Under this faulty model, women cannot, as a conceptual matter, perpetrate partner abuse. If they hit their male partners, it was in self defence. If they hit first, or are the only partner who hits, they are doing it within the context of "violent resistance" against presumed emotional or psychological abuse on his part.

If this is love we could use a lot more indifference.

But this is feminism in action.

You are allowed to have your own idea of feminism

Why thank you.

including one that champions equality among genders

No, feminism is against equal treatment under the law and Civil Rights for men.

We understand men have needs and emotions as well.

You just want men to shut up and quit 'whining', is that it?

Part of feminism is accepting men

ROTFL. Feminism never met a male victim of anything it did not seek to punish.

and not forcing gender stereotypes on them.

Feminism stereotypes men as rapists, harassers and batterers. Patriarchy theory says that all men oppress all women for men's benefit.

Do you know anything about feminism at all?

a-man-from-earth · 2021-04-27T23:20:52+00:00

If you align yourself with a movement that hates men, then it's logical to put the onus on you to show that you distance yourself from that movement's misandry.

Bojack35 · 2021-04-27T23:31:07+00:00

I don't discount feminism because I think they hate all men. I have good friends who consider themselves feminists so know that isnt true.

I discount feminism as a means to gender equality because it falsely states gender inequality is because of patriachy and women being oppressed by men. It's efforts will always be flawed because it is based on a false premise.

Feminism is great at progressing womens rights which is obviously good. It is not great at progressing gender equality because it is only concerned with areas where women are disadvantaged and focuses on these negative outcomes not the root causes (beyond lazily and incorrectly blaming patriachy.)

iainmf · 2021-04-28T00:48:15+00:00

How's this logic?

If hate movements act to prevent equal rights for targeted groups, and

The feminist movement acts to prevent equal rights for men

Then the feminist movement is a hate movement.

EmirikolWoker · 2021-04-28T05:27:38+00:00

The foundational principals of all flavours of feminism are inherrently anti-male when you examine what needs to be true for them to accurately describe reality. Feminists can claim that it's "just about equality", but it's equality based on bigotted assumptions, presuming psychopathy on the part of men as a class.

Egalitarian values, and mens rights advocacy in particular, is innately antifeminist.

You are allowed to have your own idea of feminism

As long as it's not that feminism is to be discounted, I suppose?

Part of feminism is accepting men and not forcing gender stereotypes on them.

What is Patriarchy conjecture if it's not forcing gendered stereotypes on men (specifically, that men as a class are privileged, have institutional power, and use that power to oppress women)?

this negative response was expected but discouraging.

People disagreeing with you, supplying robust arguments to support that disagreement, can be discouraging. Could it be that the original post has flaws?

I give up on redditt men.

How do you know that all of the commenters here are men? Regrdless, I'm sure we'll find a way to cope.

SmallStepsFirst · 2021-04-27T22:49:40+00:00

The thing is, many feminists don't call out other feminists very often when they do hate on men. It comes across like a country that doesn't acknowledge a genocide or when people close their eyes for people saying racist/sexist stuff.

maxlvb · 2021-04-28T06:43:45+00:00

Another closet r/menslib 'advocate'? Seems to be...

Feminism: Equality, when convenient.

FinallyReborn · 2021-04-28T06:42:53+00:00

Feminism as a whole does hate men, just because there are a few "exceptions" doesn't take away from the fact that they have created serious anti-male laws and pushed them into legislature.

A movement should be judged by the leaders, not the members, regardless of the "real feminists" hypothesis that feminists use when referring to radicals, which is no true scotsman, they are following and directly supporting the feminists in power, and the feminist organizations, that have pushed these systemic disadvantages onto men. Saying that a stranger on the internet who has no inherent power is a "real feminist", and that the feminist leaders that have the power to manipulate laws, and the feminists that created and defined the movement are "fake feminists", is both laughable in thought, and nothing but self-delusion. I can say that I am in support of the KKK under the grounds of "racial equality", but that would be irrelevant, as I would be directly supporting the white-supremacists who use terrorist tactics to target black people.

Would you support the men's rights movement if it both advocated, and successfully made the rape of women completely legal under law? I would say you wouldn't, right?

Apply that flavour to feminism.

Feminists successfully made the FBI take on a definition of rape that excludes male victims who were forced to penetrate by female perpetrators. This included the CDC, the BJS, NOW and countless other government organizations. This would have influenced countless other smaller academics to use their bias definition of rape which is a large reason why male rape has been so drastically underreported for so many decades. You can blame influential feminist Mary P. Koss, the majority feminist foundation, the women's law project feminist magazine, NOW (the self-proclaimed largest feminist organization) and countless other feminist organizations as to why this happened.

Mary P. Koss is an advisor to the CDC, FBI, Congress, and researchers around the world and promoting the idea that men cannot be raped by women. There was a proposal to explicitly include forced envelopment in the latest FBI update to the definition of rape but after a closed door meeting with her and NOW lobbyists, it mysteriously disappeared. She has many many followers and fellow researchers that follow her methodology and quote her studies. That is where most people get the idea rape is just a man on woman crime.

http://boysmeneducation.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/Koss-1993-Detecting-the-Scope-of-Rape-a-review-of-prevalence-research-methods-see-p.-206-last-paragraph.pdf

https://clyp.it/uckbtczn

The majority feminist foundation, and the women's law project feminist magazine, successfully made the FBI change their definition of rape, they did this by flooding the FBI and Department of Justice with thousands of emails to convince them to change the definition of rape. Rape is defined as "penetration" in their definition. They pulled out their normal feminist rhetoric and claimed that it also helped men, when to any non-sexist human being who holds the belief that men can be raped by women, this is obviously not the case.

https://politybooks.com/feminists-successful-in-changing-antiquated-rape-law/

Feminists lobbied against gender neutral rape laws in India, so women are not rapists and men victimized by women are not rape victims.

https://www.timesofindia.com/india/Activists-join-chorus-against-gender-neutral-rape-laws/articleshow/18840879.cms

Israeli feminists were concerned if a woman raping a man was recognized by law, a man could threaten to make false accusations against the woman after the man raped her in order to keep her from reporting. Apparently false accusations are a problem for women, so they fixed this by blocking the legislation that would have made rape a gender neutral crime.

https://m.jpost.com/Israel/Womens-groups-Cancel-law-charging-women-with-rape

Nepal feminists also blocked legislation there...

Women’s rights activists had criticised the draft ordinance saying it wasn’t empathetic towards the plight of the victims. They said that having a provision saying even men could be victims of rape could could further weaken the women rape victims’ fight for justice.

https://kathmandupost.com/national/2020/12/11/ordinance-amends-law-on-rape-but-fails-to-recognise-rape-of-boy-child-and-sexual-minorities

You wouldn't restrain yourself from calling any movement that systemically advocated, never the less successfully forced the FBI to take on a definition of rape that excludes female victims of rape a hate movement, correct?

I can genuinely go on and on here... I have countless of other examples of systemic issues feminism has directly brought onto men, including literal mass genocide.

Andynnos · 2021-04-28T08:24:27+00:00

I do not think they all hate men (the radical ones though.... Kill all men..they need to take a chill pill badly), but I am yet to see one that does not undermine us. No matter what we say or do they see a way to look down on us and make it an issue. You always go about men can do this, men should do this, men have all this wonderful things, white male privilege (yah I am always walking down the street and the rest of the guys are like, Hello fellow white privileged man have this opportunities, want to be a CEO today? /s). When do you people actually look in the mirror and reflect at the wonderful and beautiful things you have access to. Men stopped being human beings and they are only seen as an object that needs to succeed. Instead of looking at us and see a man you people see a freaking long list of demands and objectives that we need to reach in order for us to have value. And that is just fucked up.

Neither-Ad891 · 2021-04-28T13:55:14+00:00

There are highs and lows to every argument and movement, the reason we disregard feminism is because most arguments have hypocrisy or disregard certain facts in regards to men. The phrase "The future is female" was coined by a woman who wanted to reduce men to 10% of the population. They infantilize women and demonize men most times, and when there are women that don't, they get called a "pickme" who's only agreeing because they crave male attention. See the issues? (Pickme is very ironic because I thought we were supposed to listen to women and respect their voices? Wait, that's only for women who agree with them. Women who don't fall in line are dick hungry doormats who deserve to be mocked and ignored. Hehe.)

Frosty-Gate-8094 · 2021-04-28T08:56:50+00:00

Feminism is not about 'gender equality'. PERIOD.

We all want gender equality... you are right..

But we dont expect feminism or feminists to help us....
If you truly believe in 'gender equality', you can acknowledge men's issues. And enlighten your 'feminist' friends.

Thanks a lot, your help will be greatly appreciated..

But we dont expect or accept any more help...

The issue we face is that feminism hijacks men's issues with not real intention to solve them, and then reduce their relevance to the point of trivialisation..

Feminism cant be trusted with sensitive issues involving men's and boys lives and health.. Your help is appreciated. As long as you keep safe distance.

Itasenalm · 2021-04-27T23:59:57+00:00

You seem to be conflating the original spirit behind feminism, and the modern bastardization of the once-noble movement. There are certainly misogynists who discount feminism to push their anti-female views, but there are also logical egalitarians like me who condemn feminism because it is 100% unacceptable to “teach men not to rape” (for the same reason it’s not ok to “teach black people not to steal). Many people here want equal rights, respect, and treatment, and are against the current prevalent feminist narrative because it is openly discriminatory and oppressive. You do not seem to have taken that into account, and instead have lumped everyone in with the worst among us.

Thoughts?

Inchan255 · 2021-04-28T03:50:10+00:00

I am tired of these threads. Can we please start banning these folks like Feminists subs do? or Make another sub for such discourse. Like 'Mensrightshhottakes' or something?

SewageFace · 2021-04-28T16:25:47+00:00

Egalitarianism

reddut_gang · 2021-08-10T16:45:17+00:00

It's not logical to discount feminism because of what I think, it's logical to discount feminism because of what they do. Congrats, you got yourselves some rights. Try to do that without taking away mine. And please don't lie about being for equality.

Title	It's not logical to discount feminism because you think they all hate men
Author	planetbrain
Upvotes	0
Comments	47
Date	April 27, 2021 10:33 PM UTC (5 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/n00hyk/its_not_logical_to_discount_feminism_because_you/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/its-not-logical-to-discount-feminism-because-you.829804 https://theredarchive.com/post/829804

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