This is a longish and not particularly original rant.
Clearly some of us just aren't cut out to take on the masculine role, but at the same time much of the problems awkward men's are facing with dating are because the insane mix of expectations affecting all men in general.
We're expected to initiate, every goddamn time, be assertive and act on desires that are simultaneously considered 'problematic' or threatening if they happen to be unreciprocated.
Forced into making moves within the narrow schedule women expect, without hesitation or hint of insecurity. Any misstep judged in the harshest manner possible. Ask women out too early and you're a creep who "objectify" them by focussing too much on appearance; too late and you're a creepy Nice Guy faux friend who tried to get in close proximity through feigning friendship.
And worst of all: Expected to 'just know' when to escalate things physically without any clear rules around when to seek verbal permission or what counts as permission in its absence. Surprise... it turns out many women don't actually like to be asked all the time, or think it's lame, submissive beta type behaviour. Then there's the opposites for whom there are no innocent mistakes. So you have this bizarre mix of values were women describe how they stopped dating some guy because he tried to hold their hand too soon, while others complain about men being too passive and not aggressively pushing for sex.
Same goes for feminist subs. Odd how the particular gender role of who approaches is never questioned. Real Men get over their issues, we're told, learn how to talk to women and play the masculine role perfectly while still respecting (vaguely articulated) boundaries at every point.
Add to this, almost no consensus beyond the obvious (assaulting someone incoherent drunk, unconscious, clearly not into it. etc) No guidelines, only context based judgements that vary between individuals. And no one willing to acknowledge the large numbers of women who don't give a damn about enthusiastic consent as a standard and would prefer men be exciting and unpredictable.
I've come across women who won't judge for minor faux pas and generally sympathize with what it must be like to initiate, but they don't control the narrative.
Who needs it. That's the attitude I'm getting from guys now.
In my workplace (university campus) I see this group of them in their mid-late 20s, some with Master's degrees, spending what remains of their youth in low stress casual positions. I tried talking to a couple of them about why exactly they're coasting, why they're still single etc. and the answer usually goes: something.. something.. too much hassle.
I mean why would you serve yourself up to be judged by someone with obvious issues of their own? Many women have a tendency to lash out at and pillorize men they aren't attracted to, to make them somehow symbolic of the bad experience they had in the past with other men. It's become a too risky proposition for those who aren't blessed with appearances and confidence.
They'll be a largish group of them getting to their 30s without a lick of experience and all sorts of downstream consequences with depression and people ditching career goals. Think incels are a problem now?
[–]HardNuttingFrank 39 points40 points41 points (9 children) | Copy Link
[–]UnconventionalXY 8 points9 points10 points (8 children) | Copy Link
[–]HardNuttingFrank 3 points4 points5 points (7 children) | Copy Link
[–]UnconventionalXY 3 points4 points5 points (2 children) | Copy Link
[–]HardNuttingFrank 2 points3 points4 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]captaindestucto[S] -1 points0 points1 point (3 children) | Copy Link
[–]HardNuttingFrank 4 points5 points6 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]bufedad 3 points4 points5 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]alclarkey 3 points4 points5 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]afroschlan 28 points29 points30 points (2 children) | Copy Link
[–]FinallyReborn 6 points7 points8 points (1 child) | Copy Link
[–]UnconventionalXY 3 points4 points5 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[+]ShoutoutsToSimple8 points [recovered] (1 child) | Copy Link
If you really want to get mad, consider the lack of consistency when women are asked about "super obvious hints" they send to guys, and when women are asked about "annoying times a guy hit on them when they were just being friendly." There is always a ton of overlap in the behaviors described.
This is a common enough thing, but I've seen it relatively recently (maybe a month or two ago) on AskReddit. Within a week of each other, two posts were posted. One was asking women about times when they were giving a guy super obvious hints, yet the guy still didn't get that she wanted him to make a move. The other was asking women about the frustrating times when they are just trying to be a friend to a guy, and he makes a move.
The first thread in isolation had its own problems. The implication was that if a woman is sending signals and the man doesn't reciprocate, he must just be a dumb idiot, as if it's impossible that he understood the signals, and simply did not want to make a move on this woman. But setting that aside, the thread was filled with man-bashing, with people talking about how men are fucking stupid, and how women can send the most obvious signals ever, and yet men will still sit there like a Neanderthal, having no idea what's going on.
The second thread was as you would expect. Women describing certain actions they have taken which were mistaken as romantic interest, resulting in the guy who they thought was just a friend, trying to lean in for a kiss, or other things of that nature.
But yeah, as you would expect, the overlap was huge. Most of the "signals" described in the first thread, showed up as "ugh, why did he go for a kiss after I did this thing, men are such pigs" in the second thread. It was really frustrating to read a woman suggesting that men are fucking stupid idiots for not realizing that Action X was clearly a signal, and how only the dumbest people imaginable could witness Action X and not understand that it's a massive green light. And then to turn around and read another woman complaining about those awful men who leap at the chance to make a move as soon as they witness Action X.
It's a perfect demonstration of the problem. What one woman considers the most obvious signal imaginable, the kind of thing that only a huge idiot would not understand, is the same thing that another woman considers a normal friend interaction, and would be frustrated if a man interpreted it as a signal.
[–]GivePuppiesBazookas 14 points15 points16 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]WoodenPackage0 16 points17 points18 points (3 children) | Copy Link
[–]UnconventionalXY 4 points5 points6 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]captaindestucto[S] 0 points1 point2 points (1 child) | Copy Link
[–]GeneviveChastain 0 points1 point2 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]Raychao 7 points8 points9 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]Intrepid_University6 6 points7 points8 points (1 child) | Copy Link
[–]UnconventionalXY 3 points4 points5 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–][deleted] 3 points4 points5 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]IHaveTheSquirts 14 points15 points16 points (2 children) | Copy Link
[–]idrinkapplejuice42 5 points6 points7 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]captaindestucto[S] 4 points5 points6 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]BigBadBootyDaddy10 3 points4 points5 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]YourFavouriteGuy 2 points3 points4 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]DanteLivra 2 points3 points4 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]Test-writer 2 points3 points4 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]SnooStrawberries9414 2 points3 points4 points (1 child) | Copy Link
[–]PeaceBeautiful5118 0 points1 point2 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]-P5ych- 1 point2 points3 points (4 children) | Copy Link
[–]UnconventionalXY 0 points1 point2 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]captaindestucto[S] 0 points1 point2 points (2 children) | Copy Link
[–]-P5ych- 0 points1 point2 points (1 child) | Copy Link
[–]PanpsychismIsTrue 0 points1 point2 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[+]FiredUpAgain0 points [recovered] (3 children) | Copy Link
Totally unfair that women want different things. Women need to all decide what they want and keep it 100 percent consistent.
One woman wants one thing. Another woman wants another thing. And men have to actually speak to them to find out what they want. It's a completely unfair standard.
[–]UnconventionalXY 14 points15 points16 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]WorthlessPeritsi 3 points4 points5 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]Frosty-Gate-8094 4 points5 points6 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[+]Letolethe -15 points-14 points-13 points (3 children) | Copy Link
[–]captaindestucto[S] 14 points15 points16 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]UnconventionalXY 10 points11 points12 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]WorthlessPeritsi 2 points3 points4 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[+]kittensalad13 -24 points-23 points-22 points (3 children) | Copy Link
[–]IHaveTheSquirts 18 points19 points20 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]icemonkey002 14 points15 points16 points (0 children) | Copy Link
[–]Frosty-Gate-8094 3 points4 points5 points (0 children) | Copy Link