Would anyone be willing to explain to me (M19) about Men’s Rights? I simply don’t understand it yet..

5th_Law_of_Robotics · 2019-08-20T14:42:11+00:00

Men face a number of systemic legal and social biases against them that aren't being addressed by any current group other than MRAs. It's a branch of egalitarianism focused on men's issues.

QueenNayru · 2019-08-20T14:31:17+00:00

I get the vibe that you haven't read many of the posts here. This sub reddit primarily points out the rights men don't have or the injustices men face. While there is some opposition to feminism here, it's not just to be spiteful.

2019-08-20T15:18:09+00:00

Do you know why circumcision is legal in the US?

Then ask yourself, why is female circumcision illegal?

kellythebunny · 2019-08-20T15:31:55+00:00

The phrase "men have all the rights" is a lie.

Men do not have the right to bodily autonomy. Society makes it clear that when a boy turns 18 he better be willing and ready to give his life (and soul) to the military. Its illegal to cut or modify the genitals of girls. Cutting the genitals of boys is routine in the US.

Men do not have reproductive rights. They do not have the right to choose fatherhood. If a man conceives a child and wants to be a father, the mother can decide to abort, keep the father out of the kids life (while still getting that CS money) or even give the child up for adoption. If the man isn't ready for fatherhood, he cannot say no after the conception. If men and women had equal reproductive rights, abortion would be completely illegal. After all, they chose to have sex, right?

Boys are held financially responsible for children they conceive even when they are statutorily raped by older women.

This is just the tip of the iceberg....

OkaySeriouslyBro · 2019-08-20T15:27:10+00:00

https://old.reddit.com/r/gatekeeping/comments/cnka3x/saw_this_on_a_comic_book_fan_page/ewcwtlg/

OP, you're young and completely indoctrinated into this "white men are the worst" toxic attitude that is pushed and normalized by mainstream culture. If you are a white guy (and not a concern troll), you've been convinced to hate yourself and idolize others because "power". It's the same shit as religion, where believers are constantly guilted by "original sin" and forced to repent.

There's plenty of this toxic shit out their to reinforce how awful you are because you skin color + genitals, or just recognize it for what it is and unplug. Loving yourself doesn't mean becoming a Nazi or White Supremacist, it's about being confident enough to not listen.

Or, you know, become a buzzfeed reporter, get a blue checkmark on twitter, and make a living publicly attacking people for having the "bad" skin color.

mgtow-zen · 2019-08-20T14:32:55+00:00

That's probably what I would have said when I was 19. Though not as politely.

If the world you see was given to you from a feminist perspective, the world would look that way. This is extremely hard to recognize, but it is vital to understand.

As you gain a little age and discover the world (and women) aren't exactly the way your teachers told you it was, you may become a little angry, but you will start to see.

Until then, pay close attention to the other males around you, look at what happens to them.

BlueOrange22 · 2019-08-20T16:22:02+00:00

Firstly, what country are you in? I can help highlight the specific MR issues in your country.

It just kind of seems like it is Anti-Feminism to me just to prove a point.

but why is that enough to fight for rights we already have?

It just seems like a bit of a “No you!” To feminism.

These things are just not true, but they are common lines repeated in an attempt to discredit us and what we say. "No you" and "whataboutism" are not actual things by the way, you might wish to avoid using them in the context you did. In reality though, we do not have all of these rights, and when we talk about the issues/rights that relate, we often come into conflict with feminism.

An example is in India- in India, it is not illegal to rape men. Rape laws are written in such language, that men are outright excluded from the law and not legally protected from rape. This is directly due to feminist lobbying...as you'll see from that article, the government was set to amend the law in 2013, but feminist groups protested, and now 10% of the world's population remains legally unprotected from sexual assault. It's still an ongoing issue, and feminist groups are saying the same thing.

Men fall behind in many markers for economic wellbeing. Just a few examples:

EDUCATION

Boys fare worse in education, which sets them behind for life. Studies actually show that boys earn lower grades for the same work. This is a blatant and significant bias...just imagine if it went the other way, and it was shown that girls are unfairly graded and given lower grades then they deserve. It would be a media uproar. But because it happens to boys, it's ignored. As a result, boys are less likely to attend university, and later in life, men are more likely to be unemployed and more likely to be homeless. Yet of course, in many countries where the male unemployment rate is higher, employment laws still encourage preferring female over male job applicants...so men are discriminated against even when they are already the gender more likely to be unemployed.

There are areas of major disparity under law that affect men, but you rarely hear about in conversation regarding equality. Some examples:

CONSCRIPTION

Many countries practice conscription, which is when citizens are forced to join the military even if they don't want to. In most of these countries, only male citizens are conscripted. This happens in even countries that are considered "progressive" and "gender neutral" such as Austria, Finland, Switzerland, and recently Norway. (It's interesting to note that in Norway,feminist protested equal conscription

HIGHER PENSION AGES

In many countries, the state retirement age is higher for men than women, meaning men most work until they are older before they can qualify for a pension. Considering that men die younger than women to begin with, this means men often only enjoy half the time in retirement that women do. I actually did a post about that here. It's interesting to note that again, feminists are protesting against equality for this- in the UK the government is equalizing the ages, and feminists are protesting

JUSTICE SYSTEM

Men are treated more harshly in the criminal justice system, which wouldn't happen to a privileged class of society. Studies show that men receive longer prison sentences for the same crime. In the UK, there have actually been campaigns to close women's prisons outright, and that has now become the actual legal standard- women are now exempt from prison for most crimes, as official practice. The UK has a two tiered and distinct justice system for men and women. Judges are literally forced to treat women different and set female offenders free with no serious consequences even for drunk driving, as that article shows. So 50% of the population knows they can drive drunk and even if they kill somebody, nothing serious will happen to them.

There's a lot more than this, but I don't want to make this post too long; these issues are a good starting point into the MRM.

emjaytheomachy · 2019-08-20T16:16:46+00:00

Honest question. Do you believe feminism is about total equality, or only about equality for women in areas they either are or are percieved to not have equality?

If the former, go ask on some feminist threads what they are doing about systemic issues faced by men (suicide, homelessness, the degree gap to name a few.) Ask them what Male-centric and focused things specifically feminism is doing for men in those areas. If you do, enjoy the ban and being told mens problems aren't for feminism to deal with, start your own group! Though you'll get shit on for doing that too.

If the latter, then you understand why a group focused on mens issues is needed (feminism is at best a non-participating observer.)

shit-zen-giggles · 2019-08-20T17:00:34+00:00

Hi,

thanks for stopping by and being open minded.

Below are three short youtube videos that can give you a good insight into the problems:

Actors cold read facts on feminism off a teleprompter

This is a gentle introduction for people who are new to Men's Issues. There are countless links to sources in the video discription.

Warren Farrell - The boy crisis

Warren Farrell is pretty much the father of the Men's Rights Movement. He has been one of the first outspoken/public male feminists in the 1960s and served on the board of the National Organisation for Women (NOW)'s New York chapter (being reelected 3 times). When he started to look into Men's Issues he was quitely expelled from the feminist movement. He's the author of several seminal books, most importantly "The myth of male power" and "The boy crisis".

Cassie Jaye - A feminist coming to terms with the Men's Rights Movement

Cassie Jaye is a documentary film maker and identified as a feminist for most of her adult life. When she started to do a documentary on "rape culture", she started to interview Men's Rights Activists and realised how mistaken her feminism informed perspective was. She changed the course of her documentary which led to feminists cutting all funding they could influence. Cassie finished the documentary, now named "The red pill", with money raised via crowdfunding. The experiences with making this documentary led her to no longer call herself a feminist. You can find a lot of the raw footage of her documentary on her youtube channel

I hope that these bring out not only the Issues Men face in todays society, but also the constant barrier to addressing them that is the feminist movement. Therefore the adamant frustration of many in the MRM with said movement.

Would be interested in what you think about any/all of these and the information presented therein.

_Zetto · 2019-08-20T15:40:20+00:00

You seem to think feminism is good. How naive. In my country, if you do a crime that has anything to do with attacking a woman your crime is automatically considered a gender crime according to law and to be judged by a court made up of women. It's one directional. If you push your girlfriend in order to protect yourself because she had a knife in her hand and hates all men so she wants to kill you, you just did a "gender violence crime" (pushing is considered gender violence even if she started being violent, according to law) and she will most likely walk free. That's just one instance in which feminism shows its real face. Every feminist will then say, feminism is equality. But it's not; I'd go as far as saying no feminist believes in a real gender equality, they just believe in what they want to believe. Honestly, you don't sound to me like someone with genuine intentions. You ask, why fight for rights we already have? Pardon me, do I look like a feminist?

epalsliphead · 2019-08-20T14:33:07+00:00

If you're not harassed and abused by a female student, consider yourself lucky because a lot of men are experiencing it and the media and those with power support the destruction of men in general.

If you don't live in a city where you see people supporting women's cause and rights at the cost of men's freedom and dignity everyday, then you are lucky.

Feminism isn't equality...it's all about pushing idiotic agendas and grasping influence and power by all means at the expense of those who oppose them, men especially. Just look at social media and Youtube where they whine and complain about the "patriarchy" while they become the bullies / Nazis themselves.

2019-08-20T14:49:48+00:00

Ok. Let me tell you something. We're practicality the same age. (I'm 20). I live 200 meters away from a courthouse and I can see how laws are totally and one-sidedly in favor of women. Take a look at the news. Male teacher "rapes the female 14-year-old student" and gets to spend 20 years in prison. Female teacher gets to spend 2 years in prison because of "having sex with her 13-year-old male student". This is something that actually happened and I'm sure you can find it in this sub. The thing is, most people believe that women aren't capable of being violent but men are as violent as wild animals. This is not true

mgtowolf · 2019-08-20T15:14:50+00:00

Feminists are prettymuch the enemy. Feminists made sure to exclude most female rapists from stats to make it look like men are rapists only. Feminists made sure that policy is to assume if there is a male involved in a domestic dispute, that he was the one in the wrong and is arrested. For just a few examples, and when we push for a correction in this lopsided bullshit, it's the feminists that fight it tooth and nail.

grandmasbroach · 2019-08-20T16:30:36+00:00

You said the "rights we already have." This implies you think there are rights women do not have that men do. Can you name a single right I have as a male that women don't? We exist because, and seriously no offense, because most people are so brainwashed in thinking men have it so awesome they don't even realize why we need the movement. I don't think you really realize just how much this oppression narrative has been forced into you.

Sure, men are a majority at the top of society. But, what feminists won't tell you with that, is that men also dominate the bottom. Majority of the homeless are men, minority in college now, die years earlier but retire later, majority of violent crime victims, and on and on. Pretty much any negative socioeconomic indicator will be led very heavily to men.

I can name 3 women have that men don't.

First, the draft. As a male, I have to sign up for selective service or be labeled a felon. This is regardless of if a war actually happens and the draft is needed. Still, even if there isn't a war, I need to sign up or basically have no life, as you will be a felon.

The second is reproductive rights. Women have things like access to abortion literally written into law. A woman HAS THE LEGAL RIGHT to decide when she becomes a parent. Men have no such rights, and have zero say on when they become a parent. Men who don't want children just yet will be told to keep it their pants. How do you suppose that would go over if we flip the genders? If a woman didn't want to become pregnant, she should have just kept it in her pants, no abortion for you.

The third is bodily autonomy. We circumcise men and don't bat an eye at it. Which, you probably have been lied to to the extent you don't even realize what that did to you. Your body, your choice? Not if you're a man. The foreskin is the most nerve dense part of the male body. It has specialized cells, and when you remove the foreskin it changes them causing it to harden, and become much less sensitive. Basically, most men are told that it doesn't effect sex, and as a biologist and person who has worked in medicine for over a decade I can tell you that is utter bullshit. It absolutely does, and was pretty much the entire reason for doing it.

Here is a little thought experiment for you. What argument that is for/pro circumcision, would work if the person going under the knife was female? It is religious tradition and we can't take that away? How about, it's cleaner? It looks better?

grandmasbroach · 2019-08-20T18:03:39+00:00

How about you actually read some posts and spend some time on here so you don't have to guess or take someone elses word for it?

SmokeWineEveryday · 2019-08-20T16:31:45+00:00

You not understanding why this exists is basically the whole point. And just like you I really don't mean that in a disrespectful way. And it's not even your fault for not seeing the problem, because you constantly hear about women's issues, while men's issues don't get discussed that often at all.

awksomepenguin · 2019-08-20T16:52:12+00:00

Look into the Duluth model. It pretty much states that men are always the aggressors in domestic violence and that women are always victims. This model is used to shape police policy by arresting the man in every domestic violence case, even if he is the victim in a non-reciprocal case.

TardsRunThisAsylum · 2019-08-20T18:41:00+00:00

You will only really understand as you get older and society treats you less as a coddled child, and more as a man--a workhouse to heap labor of all kinds on, who should demand nothing and simply act as a expendable, replaceable cog in the machine.

Right now, society is still somewhat willing to hear about your problems. By the time you're 21, everyone--even your own mother and female relatives--will basically tell you to shut the fuck up and stop whining if you display even the slightest bit of unhappiness.

DextTG · 2019-08-20T14:56:07+00:00

Just to preface; I’m just one guy, and it’s inevitable that there will be other guys on this subreddit who have different explanations and replies to this, and there will definitely be other guys with a better grasp on what Men’s Rights is about, but I’ll do my best.

First of all, I don’t think Mens Rights is Anti-Feminism at all. Sure, Men’s Rights Activists don’t agree with everything that Feminists believe, but I think that the end goal of the two are very similar, if not the same. Men’s Rights is about raising awareness of the things in society that are unjust towards men, of which there are plenty. For example suicide rates or injuries in the workplace, there are much more male suicides than female suicides, yet when MRAs bring this point up, they’re not saying “we need to focus on men’s suicide issues more than women’s!”, of course not, what they’re really saying is “men are far more likely to be the victims of suicide, and while female suicide is still a problem that should be fixed, the fact that men are disproportionately affected is a clear indicator of something very wrong in our society that needs to be worked out”.

Secondly, we’re not fighting for rights we already have, of course that makes no sense (I’ve heard multiple times that, at least in America I think, women actually have more rights than men, however I’m not sure how true that ‘fact’ is, and I’ve never fact checked, but I thought I’d bring it up to see if anyone who reads this can verify). We’re fighting for equal treatment of men and women in society. It’s a well known fact, at least in this subreddit, that women tend to get shorter and more lenient sentences for the same crimes when compared to men. Obviously this is unfair and unjust, men and women should be treated equally. But this is just one example of how men are treated unfairly in society compared to women, and it’s a problem. Of course, when we say it’s a problem we’re not saying that all other problems should be dropped and ignored, it’s just that in today’s increasingly feminist society, we seem to be focusing more of women’s problems and not enough on men’s, when really we should be focusing on both equally, and working to create a true equal society.

Once again, I’m just one dude, and what my perspective of Men’s Rights is will inevitably differ from others, but I feel like I did my best at giving a brief overview. Like I said there are probably other people out there who can better explain and encapsulate the Men’s Rights movement and give better examples, but as someone who usually only participates in Men’s Rights/Feminism discussions in passing, I thought it’d be a good sort of exercise for myself to try and come up with a reply to your question. I hope I’ve been informative!

2019-08-20T16:31:18+00:00

Feminists have succeeded in emancipating women from gendered expectations. MensRights, as I see it is an attempt to do the same for men. However, any and all attempt to argue for gendered issues that men face in public life are usually met with open hostility and accusations of misogyny by people who call themselves feminists. In addition, feminist activists have put in place negative gender expectations for men through things like The Violence Against Women Act, the Duluth Model and in the family courts and they vigorously campaign to keep these regressive practices. So you will see hostility toward 'feminism' here, but do not take that as hostility towards equal rights for women. What's at issue is equal rights for men and boys in marriage and divorce, in reproductive rights, in criminality and the law and in education.

iainmf · 2019-08-21T07:53:55+00:00

In what kind of situations do you think a men's rights movement would be necessary?

grandmasbroach · 2019-08-21T15:35:51+00:00

Why do people make posts asking questions, and then dissappear?

StockIslam · 2019-08-20T16:24:16+00:00

I’m at work right now so I can’t respond to all of these, but through reading everything you guys have said, I am beginning to understand your reasoning for this. I don’t 100% agree with it, but you’re right about men facing problems such as suicide and homelessness etc. They are issues that aren’t addressed nearly enough. I will try and respond throughout the day, but thank you for giving me an insight to how you guys think!

PrinceArchie · 2019-08-20T15:08:10+00:00

In order to understand this reddit you need to not assume "Men have rights" but rather ask "what rights do you not have"? Popular opinion would like you to believe the following about men:

-Men are inherently overly aggressive -Men are inherently sexist -Men are inherently rapists/sexual deviants -Men are stupid/impulsive/illogical -Men get everything they want simply because they are men

Im a 25 year old hispanic male. I grew up most of my life with people who liked me in school as a friend. Many females liked me as a "friend". I was told I am terrible boyfriend material but the perfect husband. I was always polite, sensitive to political correctness and defended women who were in my opinion back then "abused" by dogmatic men. A girl dating a bunch of jerks, or my mother married to an "insensitive " jerk of a father was an unfortunate plight that they were in.

They needn't be abused verbally or told things to place them under men. I was VERY naive and I can honestly say that today. Why? Often times people learn the truth from trauma. When you trust women unapologetically and open your hearts to them and have compassion with no forward leaning aspirations seeking reciprocity in affection, sexual attention or love you at least expect your devout noble behavior to be met with genuine compassion and honest talk.

Sadly women did not provide this, the only woman in my life to come remotely close was my mother and even still I have reservations to her true intentions when seeing the stark differences between the way she treated my homosexual brother and myself ( I am heterosexual). A green young man with no sexual experience and questions of the world with vast insecurities is a major turn off for women. You're essentially useless and unless you're her son you arent worth the air you breath. You're better off alone, poor, dead or all the above. At best you are a vehicle for financial security she will never love. Respecting a woman is not the same as respecting a man, a woman wants to be dominated. That doesnt mean abuse, there is a fine line, but unfortunately they don't care to elaborate that, be honest about it or what not. If you dont got it, its best you don't pollute the gene pool. This is how they behave and subconsciously think.

Women lie, they cheat, and they sleep around well before young boys even discover masturbation and pornography. A guy who sleeps around is a player, a woman who sleeps around isnt a slut, shes a "free spirit".

A woman MUST be married by a certain age, otherwise she risks a life where she bears no children and has no stability. This is literally just nature. Society has jumped through hoops to give women a more Male less lifestyle to overcome natural deficiencies (freezing of eggs and sperm banks). But I digress. As you learn to understand how ugly the world really is, you start to understand how women really think of men. Put simply in the harshest of ways yet simplest...:

Men
Women
Nice guys (Slaves, subhuman, exploited purse)

Most guys are indoctrinated into being the nice guy, I was myself. This isnt an exaggeration by any stretch. When you start to understand that women dont care whether nice vulnerable guys live or die. If they are depressed, if they are confused and need help. When you start to understand that all they want is the alpha male who forces them into submission through a myriad of ways and provides for them, its the sooner you can live life as a man. Otherwise you're lamb for the slaughter. Slowly western society is trying to demonize and even legislate against male behavior. Look no further than date rape culture to see what I am talking about. Whether its at school or at professional work, a man who isnt attractive to a woman is NOT ALLOWED to look or even make respectful affectionate advances twoard a woman.

You run this risk of jail time or losing your job. And no, it is not the case that women arent seeking relationships at work, quite the contrary they actively look for potential male partners everywhere they frequent, most notably school and work.

Zekuro · 2019-08-20T16:57:14+00:00

On the sidebar there is a list of "some challenges faced by males". Here are some (I'm not going to explain them in detail, but just going over a few of them). While I may give links here, I obviously invite you to do your own research on the matter and never limit yourself to what you are told. The information is out there, now you just need the determination and courage to look for it.

Male Genital Mutilation - Circumcision : so FGM is the worst crime ever ; circumcision is basically commonplace in some countries like USA. Now, they back it with research and whatever...But those research are often contested and the more you look into it the more you see the problem with all of it. This website can be a good beginning : https://www.doctorsopposingcircumcision.org/ or https://aeon.co/essays/are-male-and-female-circumcision-morally-equivalent
Legal Discrimination : a more complicated subject to get into, since it's harder to have actual evidence. But I can begin with the fact that quite a few countries a women can't legally rape. So any stats telling you "men rape more than women" is kinda balanced out by the fact "yeah, but legally women can't be charged with rape" in those countries.
Vilification : ever heard of toxic masculinity, man speading, mansplaining or any other deregotary term to speak of the male gender? Or ever saw how men are automatically painted as the bad guy? Well that's it. On that one, personal experience is probably worth more than actual sources.
Male Disposability : so many female shelter, so few male shelter ; "women and children first" ; "men are the ones supposed to sacrifice themselves" ; "man up"; https://menarehuman.com/nobody-cares-about-boys/

Bonus :

https://www.quora.com/How-can-we-defeat-activists-for-mens-rights -> go to Lauren Campbell's comment

http://honeybadgerbrigade.com/2016/02/18/spain-gender-laws-a-country-against-men/

2019-08-21T03:50:46+00:00

I'll just give you a quick example.

Most western nations have 'equality before the law' as a precept of their constitution (if they have one, and most do). That's supposed to ensure that man or women, white or black, rich or poor, we all get the same treatment by the CJS.

Does that happen? No. Clearly, we can all think of wealthy people that used their wealth to more or less get away with crimes. That's not the only bias in the criminal justice system, though. Charged with the same crime, men are almost three times more likely to get an incarceratory sentence, and even if a woman does get jail time, she gets 65% of the jail time of the men for the same crime. There is a de facto two tiered criminal justice system, one for men, and the other for women. Statistically, it's been this way for decades.

So, technically both men and women have the 'right' to be treated equally before the law, but right now one of the best things you can be if you're charged with something is ... female.

Therefore, it's less about specific rights than it is about getting rights interpreted and applied fairly, rather than with pretty significant pro-female bias.

genkernels · 2019-08-21T21:52:35+00:00

I can understand in this increasingly women-empowered world men feeling a little bit like the middle child, but why is that enough to fight for rights we already have?

Some idiots seem to think that men's rights is about men retaining privileges they used to have over women, but that's not true. There was a men's rights movement before women got the vote. It has very little if anything to do with "this increasingly women-empowered world". Rights we already have? What do you mean, man.

When it comes to criminal sentencing disparity, it was far worse back then. Convicting any woman of a crime was exceedingly difficult before women regularly sat on juries. Now men simply get 50+% more jail time (when women get jail time at all -- some of the disgusting shit that I've seen women get away with probation on this sub...).

Debtors prisons were eliminated in the US a very long time ago. But for unmarried fathers, such punishment was reinstituted in the early 1900s, and applied to those who could not pay, rather than just those who deliberately dodged. Child support applies to men and boys even in cases where they became fathers via (usually statutory) rape or deceit.

The draft in the US was a major gender equality issue in WW1. It still remains gendered, though hopefully not for long, thanks to the NCFM.

When it comes to false allegations of domestic violence, men had to deal with that back then, and while the consequences nowadays could be never getting to see one's kids nowadays, the consequences back then could be a backbreaking lifetime alimony or mere separation without the benefit of divorce (which was, at the time, very similar). False allegations of worse could result in hanging after a trial, and did for many black men -- now a man can get away with just losing his livelihood without the benefit of a court hearing.

And much more.

2019-08-22T08:59:16+00:00

Here something we are also against Forced circumcision of male babies

Title	Would anyone be willing to explain to me (M19) about Men’s Rights? I simply don’t understand it yet..
Author	StockIslam
Upvotes	14
Comments	34
Date	August 20, 2019 2:20 PM UTC (6 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/cszmz2/would_anyone_be_willing_to_explain_to_me_m19/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/would-anyone-be-willing-to-explain-to-me-m19-about.870813 https://theredarchive.com/post/870813

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