What I have found.

EricAllonde · 2018-05-10T03:57:18+00:00

I think that almost everyone that is subscribed to r/MensRights should invest in reading a liberal news source

I don't think anyone living in a western country can avoid liberal news sources, even if they tried. Our societies are saturated by liberal news. It's finding news sources that are unafraid to go against liberal dogma that is difficult.

Saying that women have been oppressed doesn’t mean that men haven’t; BUT, The key difference is that women have been oppressed by men, whereas men have been oppressed by themselves. Today this is much less of an issue.

This is classic feminist victim blaming based on group identity, and it's a growing cancer in society today:

"I have no sympathy for male victims of domestic violence because some other men are DV perpetrators."

"I have no sympathy for homeless men because some other men are wealthy CEOs."

"I have no sympathy for men who are falsely accused of rape because some other men are rapists."

"I have no sympathy for men whose lives are ruined by unfair divorce laws and biased divorce courts because some other men are politicians and judges."

Try to get past your feminist indoctrination and think of people as individuals, not merely members of oppressor/victim groups. If you can, it's a big step towards changing from a feminist into a decent human being.

aussietoads · 2018-05-10T05:55:36+00:00

" But misogyny is prevalent here. It’s pervasive."

Ah, no. Hating feminism, a twisted ideology, is not misogyny. Misofeminism, yes, misogyny, no.

" First: Women are and have always been discriminated against in almost every culture on the planet, forever. By men. "

Your indoctrination is showing.

RapeMatters · 2018-05-10T06:15:26+00:00

I would recommend The Atlantic, The Washington Post, The New York Times, The Huffington Post, or NPR.

I actually read those more than I do things like Fox News. It’s part of the reason I’m here - I read them with discernment. They convince me over and over again how fucked we are. I am a leftist after all. That’s why I’m here.

The Incel movement that killed 10 in Toronto is alive and well here! Incel themed posts are frequent occurrences. Now, I’m not saying that everyone here condones it, or even most people, but its presence is too great to ignore.

Here where? Serious question.

Hating feminism is something that I find misguided but understandable.

It is not misguided. My rapist is free and probably still raping because of successful feminist efforts to erase female on male rape from the dialogue. My friend who was abused and then murdered by his live in girlfriend didn’t even recognize his beatings as domestic violence because the dialogue has been viciously gendered by feminism. There is no support for me because of feminism. There was no support for him because of feminism. There will never be justice for either of us because of feminism. There’s nothing misguided about that.

But misogyny is prevalent here. It’s pervasive.

It really isn’t. It’s present. It’s bad that it’s present, but a lot of men here have been raped, abused, manipulated by, and used by women who were bad actors. Since this is the only place they can get help, they come here, and their anger sometimes comes out in bad ways. This I will agree to.

Pervasive? Not really. Not if you distinguish hatred of feminism (a political ideology) from hatred of women (misogyny). At least, it’s not near as pervasive as misandry was in feminist places when I used to be a feminist. I think it’s because we downvote it here, while it’s reinforced and encouraged in feminist spaces. At best, among feminists, it’s excused as a reaction to oppression.

So men do lose in some situations for being male, but despite the story the the numbers seem to tell, I think that there is no substantial evidence to show real systemic discrimination against men.

Given the numbers show such justice discrimination against men vs women six times greater than black people vs white people, what would it take for you to consider it systematic?

First: Women are and have always been discriminated against in almost every culture on the planet, forever. By men. It was, to me, incredible that anyone could contest this, yet I found waves of internet-spawned “historians” in r/MensRights always primed with some nebulous historical example that seemed to demonstrate that WOMEN were, in fact, the true oppressor class and that the history so fundamental to our education was all wrong. Saying that women have been oppressed doesn’t mean that men haven’t; BUT, The key difference is that women have been oppressed by men, whereas men have been oppressed by themselves. Today this is much less of an issue.

I don’t think women were the “true oppressor class” in history. The “true oppressor class” has always been the nobility and, later, the rich, of which there were both men and women. The “oppressed class” has always been the peasants and, later, the poor, of which there were both men and women.

Men had advantages. Women had advantages. Men had drawbacks. Women had drawbacks. Men had all the rights (mostly), but also all the responsibilities (again, mostly). Women were legal children, basically. This was not a good scenario. But, if a woman committed a crime, generally her husband went to prison or paid the fine. If invaders came, her husband was taken to war. Heck, if she was beating him, he was punished.

She was a legal child you see. He bore all the responsibilities. But that also means he had all the rights.

Who was oppressed? That’s hard to say. My cat has no legal rights. She also has no responsibilities. You know, I’m looking at her sleeping at the foot of the bed right now, and I think she might have the better deal.

ckershaw6 · 2018-05-10T08:14:14+00:00

I’m not going to argue about this one because it’s not deniable.

Translation: "I'm an incomprehensible idiot with no capacity to backup my asinine assumptions, please disregard me".

First: Women are and have always been discriminated against in almost every culture on the planet, forever. By men.

When women stayed at home in WW2 and Vietnam boys were being executed for being unwilling to fight without the vote.

Oh what horrible oppression women were experiencing, meanwhile men get privilege injected into their brain using gunpowder.

You were never open to listening about Men's suffering, you are a closed minded bigot just like Feminism has proven itself to be, just like Feminism always was.

ExpandingHentai · 2018-05-10T05:22:37+00:00

Hating feminism is something that I find misguided but understandable.

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Activists-join-chorus-against-gender-neutral-rape-laws/articleshow/18840879.cms

Lawyer, Seema Mishra pointed out that one pernicious provision of the Ordinance 2013, upheld by the Committee report is blanket gender neutrality of the perpetrator of sexual harassment, assault and rape. "Put simply: unlike in existing law where the accused is male, the Committee recommendations if enacted into a proposed new Bill, will make it possible for women to be charged with these offences. This is wholly unacceptable," she said.

Kalpana Vishwanath from Jagori said that making a gender neutral rape law will pave the way for bigger problems and make the woman more vulnerable. Dwelling on the reality of rape, women activists say, "It is an act of violence that must be seen in the context of deeply entrenched power inequalities between men and woman in our society. Gender neutral provisions only strengthen those already powerful, silencing the real victims."

Why would I not hate people like this?

fengpi · 2018-05-10T08:00:52+00:00

I think that almost everyone that is subscribed to r/MensRights should invest in reading a liberal news source (the fakest of fake news!). I would recommend The Atlantic, The Washington Post, The New York Times, The Huffington Post, or NPR.

Funny, those are the ones I tend to read already. I wouldn't touch FOX News with a 10-meter robotic claw while standing behind a concrete wall 3 feet thick.

You know fuck all about me, sir. You know fuck all about me. Zilch. Zero. And I mean that in the kindest possible way.

aesopstortoise · 2018-05-10T05:50:58+00:00

"Women are and have always been discriminated against in almost every culture on the planet, forever."

This is just a silly thing to say. Without context in each and every case it is meaningless. Separating the human race into two opposing factions provides no explanation for how we came to be sexually dimorphic and to take on different roles, your are begging the question.

bufedad · 2018-05-10T13:48:23+00:00

Women are and have always been discriminated against in almost every culture on the planet, forever.

Here's a photo of men and women working in 1900. Can you tell me which group is "oppressed"?

Leinadro · 2018-05-10T13:21:49+00:00

Although race should play no part in a purely gendered debate, I have found incredible levels of racism present here. I’m not going to argue about this one because it’s not deniable.

So basically, "There is racism here and I'm right because I said so"? Great way to foster conversation by declaring yourself right and refusing to talk about it.

The Incel movement that killed 10 in Toronto is alive and well here! Incel themed posts are frequent occurrences. Now, I’m not saying that everyone here condones it, or even most people, but its presence is too great to ignore.

I'm curious about this one because I've only people here condemn that killer's actions. I wonder if you have just put on a set of tinted glasses and now just lump anything that may even remotely look incel in with that killer.

In short incel has now become a buzzword that gets tossed around because people know it will draw attention.

What "incel themed posts" are you talking about exactly?

Arguing for men’s rights is fine. Hating feminism is something that I find misguided but understandable. But misogyny is prevalent here. It’s pervasive.

The reason anti feminism takes root is because unfortunately that's what gets noticed. Being reasoned and civil when disagreeing with feminism largely doesnt work.

Doing the wrong thing for the right reasons.

Uniformity of ideas leads to true indoctrination. Any skeptical thinker should consider every problem from every angle, and only then formulate their own opinion.

Funny enough that's why I hang out here. A lot of the stories posted here simply don't much notice from the liberal sources you listed.

bufedad · 2018-05-10T14:00:10+00:00

I would recommend The Atlantic, The Washington Post, The New York Times, The Huffington Post, or NPR.

I listen to NPR daily. I read the Atlantic, The Washington Post, and The New York Times (although not daily).

I don't read huffington post, because it's sexist trash.

Though what can you expect from a group that proudly publishes that they discriminate against men.

foot_kisser · 2018-05-10T12:25:14+00:00

It's funny that you should claim that this sub is exceptionally right wing. I've been told by a couple of people here that this sub and the MRM in general is fundamentally a left wing movement, and I've had an argument here with an actual Marxist not long ago.

vanillatootsierolls · 2018-05-11T03:00:04+00:00

Cheers to all the bros for ripping apart this guys arguments.

When the first line is “I’m a male” - space - followed by a critique of men’s rights I became suspicious. But Since he’s a male he can mansplain all he wants right? At least he didn’t say “I’m a living being” or “person” first ...

MRATemp1 · 2018-05-10T19:01:09+00:00

Although race should play no part in a purely gendered debate, I have found incredible levels of racism present here. I’m not going to argue about this one because it’s not deniable.

Hahahahahaha. You are a poisonous liar.

There is absolutely no racism anywhere in the mensrights spaces. There is no racism on MensRights subreddit, there is no racism on AVFM, there is no racism in ICMI, there is no racism on Karen's, Alison's, DrRandomerCam's or anyone else's Youtube channels.

This pretty much disqualifies you from from any discussion, but I'm gonna be a nice guy and answer the rest of your nonsense.

The Incel movement that killed 10 in Toronto is alive and well here! Incel themed posts are frequent occurrences. Now, I’m not saying that everyone here condones it, or even most people, but its presence is too great to ignore.

MensRights never had anything to do with incels.

Arguing for men’s rights is fine. Hating feminism is something that I find misguided but understandable. But misogyny is prevalent here. It’s pervasive.

Nope. You're lying about misogyny.

As far as feminism is concerned, we hate a hate movement. Is that wrong?

We criticize feminist articles, feminist books, feminist organizations,..... Surely articles, books and organizations can be criticized?

I think that almost everyone that is subscribed to r/MensRights should invest in reading a liberal news source (the fakest of fake news!). I would recommend The Atlantic, The Washington Post, The New York Times, The Huffington Post, or NPR. The more foul, disagreeable, and truly evil you think it is, the better. As long as you’re receiving informed beliefs contrary to your own. Uniformity of ideas leads to true indoctrination. Any skeptical thinker should consider every problem from every angle, and only then formulate their own opinion.

The reason why we are here is precisely because we sent years reading stupid media that you recommended. We spent years reading them and found that they are shit, so as a result of that we found MensRights reddit to find people who look at things from a different angle.

nforne · 2018-05-12T07:32:19+00:00

I agree with some of your points.

I’m male.

Irrelevant tbh. Many of the most respected posters here are (were?) female.

I’ve spent about a month in r/MensRights. It became almost addicting to read. I’ve also posted here a few times.

I've been here for at around 18 months. The sub has changed quite a bit in recent months.

First, some background on my views on “men’s rights”: In the United States, evidence would point to the favoring of women in certain legal, economic and social situations, in my opinion. But I think that these select inequities are mere byproducts of thousands of years of strict gender roles. So men do lose in some situations for being male, but despite the story the the numbers seem to tell, I think that there is no substantial evidence to show real systemic discrimination against men.

Putting discrimination in terms of "oppression" is a tactic, used to focus attention entirely on one group. Try to ditch groupthink, it facilitates prejudice. If a person is discriminated against unfairly, we should fix the problem without checking what group they belong to beforehand.

First: Women are and have always been discriminated against in almost every culture on the planet, forever. By men. It was, to me, incredible that anyone could contest this, yet I found waves of internet-spawned “historians” in r/MensRights always primed with some nebulous historical example that seemed to demonstrate that WOMEN were, in fact, the true oppressor class and that the history so fundamental to our education was all wrong. Saying that women have been oppressed doesn’t mean that men haven’t; BUT, The key difference is that women have been oppressed by men, whereas men have been oppressed by themselves. Today this is much less of an issue.

If you want to see oppression of women, look at Iran and Saudi. The "oppression" of western women is a joke in comparison. The biggest challenge western women had to overcome was getting the vote, but men here didn't get the vote that much sooner. If anyone was oppressed it was the working class.

The Problems That I Have With This Sub, and Why The MRM Can Never Be Taken Seriously In Any Academic Setting:

Although race should play no part in a purely gendered debate, I have found incredible levels of racism present here. I’m not going to argue about this one because it’s not deniable.

That's an accusation that's often thrown at the sub, but I don't see more racism here than I see IRL. Remember that nearly all subs are heavily censored, so they give the false impression that they're racist-free. Putting a gag on a racist doesn't stop them being racist, and to be honest I'd rather know who they are so I can avoid them. What you're seeing is free speech compared to restricted speech. There is nothing inherently racist about men's rights.

The Incel movement that killed 10 in Toronto is alive and well here! Incel themed posts are frequent occurrences. Now, I’m not saying that everyone here condones it, or even most people, but its presence is too great to ignore.

You're right on this one, and it's a recent phenomenon. After the incels sub was banned we saw a huge spike in incel-themed posts, and posts that are generally critical of women. In some ways I have sympathy for incels - men who are struggling to find a partner due to being at the bottom end of the desirability spectrum. But their self-pity is irritating, and some of them do hold extremely misogynistic views.

Arguing for men’s rights is fine. Hating feminism is something that I find misguided but understandable. But misogyny is prevalent here. It’s pervasive.

Sadly, misogyny is growing here, but it's coming from the recent incel migrants, NOT from MRAs. The sub is being corrupted and where incels used to be drowned out, their numbers are ensuring that their shitty views are taking over. Unless they get the boot, I fear the sub is lost.

I think that almost everyone that is subscribed to r/MensRights should invest in reading a liberal news source (the fakest of fake news!). I would recommend The Atlantic, The Washington Post, The New York Times, The Huffington Post, or NPR. The more foul, disagreeable, and truly evil you think it is, the better. As long as you’re receiving informed beliefs contrary to your own. Uniformity of ideas leads to true indoctrination. Any skeptical thinker should consider every problem from every angle, and only then formulate their own opinion.

My experience with the media happened in reverse. I was brought up on the BBC, The Guardian and The Observer, and I'm well versed in their narrative. You're correct - I was indoctrinated by them until I began thinking more openly and critically. I now take my news from a wider range of sources.

LittleBill12Pill · 2018-05-13T01:11:34+00:00

Im very new here but Im very happy to hear that incels are finding the support they need in their lives here. Not supporting people who have shown that they are on the brink of breaking and turning against society in a violent manner is certainly a bad thing. I've been where a lot of them have been and want nothing more than for them to find a community where they can not be outcasts.

As for the rest of your post it seems like you already made up your mind about things and you didn't spend your time here changing the way you think but just judging what you saw. In the end you even tell other people to just abandon their ideas about whether a news source is biased or not and just suggest things that align with your political ideas.

Can I ask you something? Why did you make this post on this sub? Do you actually think that you found the middle ground between your views and the views of people on this sub? Because it doesn't seem like you think you did. The argument you're making isn't very understanding of both sides. An athiest can just go on /r/christianity and say "This is dumb" (and they do) but that doesn't actually convince anyone because you're not bridging the gap between the points of view. I honestly think that this post is more for you than anyone else. We are already aware that people have the general opinion that you do. We see it all the time in many mainstream places so it doesn't matter that we see it here. You're not doing anything different than what anyone has done in the past so why do you expect any different results?

Title	What I have found.
Author	ckershaw6
Upvotes	0
Comments	55
Date	May 10, 2018 3:35 AM UTC (8 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/8ibzmt/what_i_have_found/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/what-i-have-found.901503 https://theredarchive.com/post/901503

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