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Gender pay gap is perpetuated by teenage girls who want jobs that pay less, study finds

JohnKimble111

December 13, 2017
227 upvotes
/r/MensRights
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/2017/12/13/gender-pay-gap-perpetuated-teenage-girls-want-jobs-pay-less/?WT.mc_id=tmg_share_tw
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Title Gender pay gap is perpetuated by teenage girls who want jobs that pay less, study finds
Author

JohnKimble111

Upvotes 227
Comments 61
Date December 13, 2017 3:39 PM UTC
(8 years ago)
Subreddit Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/7jk11l/gender_pay_gap_is_perpetuated_by_teenage_girls/
Archive Link https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/gender-pay-gap-is-perpetuated-by-teenage-girls-who.909449
https://theredarchive.com/post/909449
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Comments

[–]DarthCerebroX 36 points37 points38 points 8 years ago* (10 children) | Copy Link

Jobs such as being a secretary?

And before anyone starts accusing me of generalizing or being a misogynist....

According to the U.S. Census, however, the most common job for women today remains the same as 60 years ago. Between 2006 and 2010, about 4 million people in the United States worked as “secretaries and administrative assistants” — and 96 percent of them were women.

https://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/2599560

Do you feel the secretaries and “administrative assistants” deserve to be paid as much as the managers, business owners and whatever other positions they are assisting?

As far as why women chose this profession... I don’t know. You should go ask them... Go as women, why it is that even though there are more women than men in college and more women graduating with degrees... ask them why they chose these jobs that require less experience, hard work, and skills. Ask them why they choose useless liberal arts degrees that they can’t find jobs for... making them settle with secretary jobs. Go ask them why they would rather choose comfy office jobs answering phones instead of jobs that would actually require them to apply themselves and do something more difficult.

If you want to know why... go ask them.

If you want my own personal hypothesis.... The reason so many women chose easy, low paying jobs like secretaries is because unlike men, women don’t face any social stigma for working low paying, easy jobs. Women aren’t shamed or judged if they don’t make lots of money. A woman’s “value” isn’t based on their career or profession like is the case with men.

Another reason is that most women aren’t forced to be “providers” or “breadwinners” like men. They aren’t pressured by society to take high paying, stressful, difficult, or back breaking jobs that require long hours. There aren’t as many women out there as men, that are forced to work 70 hour weeks so they can provide for the families.

Because of these things.... Women have the privilege of choosing low paying, easy and comfortable jobs without facing any stigma or backlash among their peers.

Now... if you ask feminists this question... they will give you some big ole spiel about how the patriarchy holds women back and forces them to take these jobs. They’ll say that society treats women like they are less capable, not as skilled, etc etc..

But that’s all a bunch of bullshit.... Right now, women have far more options and support from society than anyone else. Even though women are outperforming and doing far better in college, a majority of the scholarships and special programs are still directed mainly towards women. They have all the help and resources they need to study and succeed in whatever field they like. And when it comes to the professional sphere.... Tons of businesses and corporations give out plenty of incentives for women to join them. These companies have gender quotas and they are doing everything they can to get women to work for them.

There is no more glass ceiling... that shit has been destroyed a while ago now.... and it’s been replaced with special ladders to assist women to climb as high as they want to.

But even though women have all these resources and support at their disposal.... many women still chose to focus more on their family life and have kids and raise families. Tons of women are still stay at home moms... And for all the women that are apart of the workforce, as shown by the statistics, a majority of them still choose to work in easy, comfortable, and low paying jobs.

So idk what to tell you....

*Over the last 6 decades our society has made great strides towards gender equality.... And our society has moved heaven and earth to give women all the tools and resources they need to succeed and be whatever they want to be in this life.... but yet here we are, 60 years later, and the number one paid profession women chose to be is secretary... *

[–]Halafax 2 points3 points4 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Do you feel the secretaries and “administrative assistants” deserve to be paid as much as the managers, business owners and whatever other positions they are assisting?

I don't think that's a question you can answer without explicit details. 20 years ago our company had an admin/secretary for each department/manager. At that time the work load was reasonable and the skillset was fairly shallow.

As the years went by, they kept getting let go or vanished via attrition. The two that are now left on our side of the company handle 2 to 3 hundred people each, and easily deserve manager wages based on their skillset and responsibilities.

[–][deleted] -3 points-2 points-1 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I don't really have an answer to your writing. A few myths and untruths channelling your view but otherwise I have no response. I would be interested to hear your view on the article I linked you to that talks to some academic research on the topic.

[+]ThatNinaGAL -17 points-16 points-15 points 8 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

Go ask yourself why you have such contempt for secretarial labor.

Most men choose jobs based on the wage paid - they expect to be the primary earner. Most women choose jobs that are compatible with raising children - they expect to be the primary caregiver. There is actually nothing wrong with this.

[–]Arby01 11 points12 points13 points 8 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

There is actually nothing wrong with this.

Most of us agree with you.

There is something wrong with demanding to have equal numbers at the top though, if there is a large percentage that doesn't pursue it. There is something wrong with claiming that there is a sexist pay difference in income over it. There is something wrong with claiming that it's men's fault. That's what the problem is.

[–]ThatNinaGAL 1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

I agree with all of that - but that doesn't excuse the contempt for secretarial work. You don't have to be a coal miner in order for your job to be legitimately useful and/or challenging. Some of these social problems are seriously exacerbated by the artificial devaluing of traditionally female jobs.

[–]kskuzmich 4 points5 points6 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

i don’t think anything was said that shows “contempt” for secretarial work. it is perfectly fine to pursue, and not being “devalued” because it is traditionally female. it is simply, as per the norm, not very valuable of a position in the grand scheme of things and requires little skill. doesn’t mean it isn’t needed, but there absolutely should be a wide gap in pay between the management and their own secretary.

[–]Arby01 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

but that doesn't excuse the contempt

Frequently, but not always, it's a lower status position, often equivalent to unskilled labour. I don't think there is any contempt for it. Certainly no more than for construction labourers.

Please explain where you found 'contempt'?

[–][deleted] -2 points-1 points0 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

You should consider reading just a tiny bit of the facts on this stuff.

https://www.google.com.au/amp/amp.weforum.org/agenda/2016/04/the-simple-reason-for-the-gender-pay-gap-work-done-by-women-is-still-valued-less

[–]Arby01 2 points3 points4 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I have read a great deal more than just a 'tiny bit of the facts' on this stuff. There might be something to the "fields women enter experience lower earnings over time", that's interesting. Or, it might be complete bunk, like most of the pay gap claims.

And that's where the problem lies, there has been so much propagandist lies by biased 'social science' that really, it becomes very difficult because every claim has to be completely dissected, because so much of the research has been dishonest and false.

[–]DevilishRogue 1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Go ask yourself why you have such contempt for secretarial labor.

Where on Earth do you get that anyone has contempt for secretarial labor from that post? You are letting your own biases and prejudices blind you to what was actually entirely neutral about secretarial labor and if anything would like to have it as a viable work option himself.

[–]Lethn 12 points13 points14 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

As somebody who didn't go to university I am finding this extremely amusing.

[+]X-Trem01 points 8 years ago [recovered] (1 child) | Copy Link

If companies would really pay less for women as for men, they will hire only women.

Everybody in a hiring committee have seen this. Price is the factor number one to be considered by HR.

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points5 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Exactly. Companies routinely let go older staff that make more to bring in younger staff that are more junior, but cost less ... but apparently they never extend that rationale to firing men and hiring women to save the 20-30%?

[–]gzzh 3 points4 points5 points 8 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

Gender pay gap is a real thing but it's like 3% difference or some shit.

[–]Roguta 2 points3 points4 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Yep. The number is different in every report, but it's still between 8 and 3 percent.

The difference that remains after accounting for all the relevant factors like education, experience and hours worked, is explained by willingness to negotiate. Men get payed more, because they, on average, are more likely to negotiate for more pay.

So there may really be a "pay gap", but not because of discrimination.

[–]Halafax 1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Men get payed more, because they, on average, are more likely to negotiate for more pay.

Cart before horse. Men trade quality of life for wage because men are judged by wage more harshly than women are.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

Not even that.

The vast majority of studies don't compare like with like. They get down to a federal job classification, which is a pretty broad category, or they get down to the industry, but even within an industry there's variation in position and different companies pay different rates for the same job. To truly compare like for like, you have to compare people working the same job at the same company.

The cream of the crop for studies is the Korn Ferry Hay Group study where they got directly into HR records for 8.5M people, in 33 nations, and compared people who a) worked for the same company, and b) had the same job title.

They found an average of only 1.6% difference between male and female pay across that 33 nation sample.

[–]Electroverted 3 points4 points5 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

*Wage gap

*Earnings gap

Anything but "pay" gap. Fuck off, Telegraph!

[+][deleted] -12 points-11 points-10 points 8 years ago (42 children) | Copy Link

This is fine but the question that remains is why do jobs that women gravitate to get paid less?

[–][deleted] 22 points23 points24 points 8 years ago (35 children) | Copy Link

Because the jobs they gravitate to are oversaturated with other women and are usually education and social science related.

Men are more variable in their job choices and do jobs others don’t want to do.

[–]DarthCerebroX 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Actually, the number one paid profession that women chose to work as are secretaries...

See my comment below for the source and more info

[+][deleted] -15 points-14 points-13 points 8 years ago (33 children) | Copy Link

The question I'm asking is why are education and social science jobs poorly paid?

[–][deleted] 20 points21 points22 points 8 years ago* (20 children) | Copy Link

It has to do with supply and demand, and the salaries employees are willing to accept. It also has to do with how much income they can produce for their employers.

Consider medical doctors: They don’t accept low salaries and they are in high demand, in addition they perform several procedures which they can bill for. So they can generate high income for the hospital.

[+][deleted] -29 points-28 points-27 points 8 years ago (19 children) | Copy Link

This is all bullshit. I'm all for men's rights but not when it is built on denial of reality.

Jobs that women are traditionally drawn to have been undervalued. There is a pay gap and this is the main reason why.

[–][deleted] 15 points16 points17 points 8 years ago* (6 children) | Copy Link

I don’t think social work for example is under valued. I think it is oversaturated. They also don’t generate as much income as computer engineers, nurses or doctors. Nurses do some procedures, including IV and give out meds that can be billed for. Social workers only interview patients and provide support and dont bill much. This is also why surgeons get paid more than psychiatrists; surgeons generate more income and are in high relative demand.

But you can believe whatever. I work in the medical field and this is how I was taught to treat medical specialties.

[+][deleted] -12 points-11 points-10 points 8 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

I get it. Relying on anecdotal evidence.

[–][deleted] 18 points19 points20 points 8 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

No this is well established in the medical field:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.forbes.com/sites/jacquelynsmith/2011/07/21/the-best-and-worst-paying-jobs-for-doctors/amp/

And is especially true if you’ve worked in hospital billing and coding, like myself..

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points4 points 8 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

This is a troll account right? It's okay, you can be honest here.

But in case you're serious...this is far from anecdotal. And compared to your assertions - for which you don't even provide anecdotes - it's a goddamn dissertation.

If you're looking for agreement with your poorly thought out assertions and dismissive attitude, you've come to the wrong place.

[–][deleted] -1 points0 points1 point 8 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

All I ask is for people to be a tiny bit informed

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

...

Okay.

[–]Aivias 1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Do as you preach.

[–]guyau 20 points21 points22 points 8 years ago* (5 children) | Copy Link

I'm not sure you understand how pay works. They don't pay certain people more for the funs; pay is determined by forces of supply and demand. Also, a lot of men are traditionally 'pushed' towards relatively low paying jobs too (manuel labour, plumbing etc). I agree that we shouldn't be overlooking true and legitimate feminist issues, but the pay gap just isn't one.

[–]Arby01 4 points5 points6 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

relatively low paying jobs too

a bunch of those jobs aren't low paying, they are 'low status', which I think is important to note.

Why? Because I have seen rhetoric that it's not a problem that boys aren't attending University because they can go into trades. In fact, it's probably economically better for them to go into trades (likely true statement too) - however, our society is run by University educated people. Politicians, corporate leaders, etc, usually have university educations. Saying that boys can 'just be tradesmen' isn't 'just as good' it's also saying, "boys can be limited in their social mobility, it's not a problem to push them down". Yes, some can go the tradesman route, business owner and then up - but it's a longer road.

[–]SyllableLogic 2 points3 points4 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Just want to point out that plumbers can make a very comfortable living. Totally agree with your point otherwise.

[–]guyau 1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

definitely. There's a lot of variation under the word 'plumber'. Some are really cashed up with their own business and everything, some scrape by doing temp work. Some teachers earn a lot too.

[+][deleted] -13 points-12 points-11 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

You need to do some learning brother.

[–]_pulsar 4 points5 points6 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

So explain why he's wrong....

[–]Greg_W_Allan 2 points3 points4 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Men unionised.

[–]_pulsar 2 points3 points4 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

So you aren't actually asking why. You've already made up your mind.

[–]EricAllonde 2 points3 points4 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Wages are set by the market, it's all just supply & demand.

The more people who are willing & able to do a certain job, the less employers need to pay to get people to do it. It's as simple as that.

No need to invent elaborate conspiracy theories, like "the patriarchy" pulling strings behind the scenes to reduce women's wages, when you're simply looking at market forces in action.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

The satanist talking about denial of reality🤔

[–]DarthCerebroX 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Hey, I’m the person that left you a comment pointing out that the paid profession more women chose to work as is still secretary or “administrative assistant”. If you don’t mind, please take a minute to read it and If you’re willing, id really like to hear your thoughts on what I had to say.

But I do want to say... I personally believe there are professions women chose to work as that are severely underpaid. Secretaries aren’t one of them... But professions like teachers, nurses (and other healthcare jobs) and stuff like that... Those people should be making way more money than they do.

I think that as a society, our priorities are all fucked up. Look at what the highest paid professions are today... Actors and professional athletes... so basically Entertainers.

The people that entertain our society make over 100 times more money than the teachers and professors that are educating our future generations. The people that are actually impacting our world in meaningful ways and teaching our youth to be good human beings... they make scraps and breadcrumbs compared to the people that entertain us.

That’s pretty fucking sad IMO... the same thing goes for nurses. Doctors and surgeons deserve to make as much money as they do... it requires years of study and it takes highly skilled people to perform those jobs.... But I also think nurses are just as important for our health and well being but yet they don’t make very much money at all.

And even our scientists and engineers... they are the people that are innovating and coming up with new technologies that will propel the human race forward... and even though they make a decent salary, they don’t make nearly as much money as they deserve...

So yeah... like the others have pointed out... in this capitalistic society, our salaries are determined by supply and demand. I think that’s a shame though and it reflects very poorly on the human race. Our priorities are all fucked up and all that seems to matter is the almighty dollar. The people that are actually making a difference in this world are many times struggling to survive and it shouldn’t be that way.

I hope sometime in the future our species will get its shit together and find a better way... because how things are right now... it’s just not right.

[–][deleted] -2 points-1 points0 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

https://www.google.com.au/amp/amp.weforum.org/agenda/2016/04/the-simple-reason-for-the-gender-pay-gap-work-done-by-women-is-still-valued-less

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points5 points 8 years ago* (11 children) | Copy Link

Because they're jobs more people are able to do.

Almost all women are able to take care of kids ... because that's what all women did when they had to stay at home to take care of their own kids.

[+][deleted] -16 points-15 points-14 points 8 years ago (10 children) | Copy Link

TIL r/mensrights is toxic. Thanks for the heads up

[–][deleted] 14 points15 points16 points 8 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

I forgot one word. In any case, if that's what you call "toxic", you're quite the fragile poor little thing.

[+][deleted] -7 points-6 points-5 points 8 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

My bad. Which word do you miss when you said 'almost all women can take care of kids' ?

[–][deleted] 7 points8 points9 points 8 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

I wrote "Almost all women are able to take care of kids." Forgot "able" initially. And it's true. Taking care of kids requires no super power, except being a mammal.

[–][deleted] -5 points-4 points-3 points 8 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

I'm glad I don't live where you do. Where I live you need to get professional qualifications to take care of other peoples children.

Unfortunately the pay isn't commensurate with the skills and qualifications expected of you.

[–][deleted] 11 points12 points13 points 8 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

I'm glad I don't live where you do. Where I live you need to get professional qualifications to take care of other peoples children.

Do they have master's degrees in babysitting where you live?

[–]guyau 6 points7 points8 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Pay has never been commensurate with the absolute value of skills and qualifications, but only with how much those skills and qualifications can be sold for in a job market regulated by a supply and demand logic.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points4 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

You need professional qualifications to be a barber, too. So?

[+]Togna-Bologna -11 points-10 points-9 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

It is absolutely toxic. However, it's good to keep an open mind and understand other's perspectives regardless, and sometimes wholesome thoughts are shared here. That's why I stay subscribed to the subreddit. Hopefully we can turn it around one day, because currently this subreddit is a cesspool of hipocrisy.

[–][deleted] 7 points8 points9 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

You have to realise that we are talking about a gap at entry level, low end, lower skill jobs causing this disparity.

Women in general want a clean, safe, comfortable working environment and at the low end of the job market that is poorly paid. Men are more willing to do hard labour, working in dangerous, uncomfortable environments which due to those factors are better paid.

If a man takes a safe, clean job next to a woman there is no difference between their pay, similarly women more could choose to do the more dangerous jobs and get paid more for it (the same as a man would)

[–]tweggs 6 points7 points8 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

This shouldn't be surprising to anyone. I'm going to generalize here, but I think that every human being would prefer a clean, safe, comfortable working environment.

The question we should be asking is why men are conditioned to believe that earning a higher salary is worth more than their health and safety, such that they flock to higher paying but more dangerous jobs in greater numbers than women do.

Oh, wait, I think I know...

[–]DarthCerebroX 4 points5 points6 points 8 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

Because secretaries don’t deserve to be paid as much as lawyers or whatever jobs they are secretaries for...

And before you start accusing me of generalizing or being a misogynist....

According to the U.S. Census, however, the most common job for women today remains the same as 60 years ago. Between 2006 and 2010, about 4 million people in the United States worked as “secretaries and administrative assistants” — and 96 percent of them were women.

https://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/2599560

Do you feel the secretaries and “administrative assistants” deserve to be paid as much as the managers, business owners and whatever other positions they are assisting?

As far as why women chose this profession... I don’t know. You should go ask them... Go as women, why it is that even though there are more women than men in college and more women graduating with degrees... ask them why they chose these jobs that require less experience, hard work, and skills. Ask them why they choose useless liberal arts degrees that they can’t find jobs for... making them settle with secretary jobs. Go ask them why they would rather choose comfy office jobs answering phones instead of jobs that would actually require them to apply themselves and do something more difficult.

If you want to know why... go ask them.

If you want my own personal hypothesis.... The reason so many women chose easy, low paying jobs like secretaries is because unlike men, women don’t face any social stigma for working low paying, easy jobs. Women aren’t shamed or judged if they don’t make lots of money. A woman’s “value” isn’t based on their career or profession like is the case with men.

Another reason is that most women aren’t forced to be “providers” or “breadwinners” like men. They aren’t pressured by society to take high paying, stressful, difficult, or back breaking jobs that require long hours. There aren’t as many women out there as men, that are forced to work 70 hour weeks so they can provide for the families.

Because of these things.... Women have the privilege of choosing low paying, easy and comfortable jobs without facing any stigma or backlash among their peers.

Now... if you ask feminists this question... they will give you some big ole spiel about how the patriarchy holds women back and forces them to take these jobs. They’ll say that society treats women like they are less capable, not as skilled, etc etc..

But that’s all a bunch of bullshit.... Right now, women have far more options and support from society than anyone else. Even though women are outperforming and doing far better in college, a majority of the scholarships and special programs are still directed mainly towards women. They have all the help and resources they need to study and succeed in whatever field they like. And when it comes to the professional sphere.... Tons of businesses and corporations give out plenty of incentives for women to join them. These companies have gender quotas and they are doing everything they can to get women to work for them.

There is no more glass ceiling... that shit has been destroyed a while ago now.... and it’s been replaced with special ladders to assist women to climb as high as they want to.

But even though women have all these resources and support at their disposal.... many women still chose to focus more on their family life and have kids and raise families. Tons of women are still stay at home moms... And for all the women that are apart of the workforce, as shown by the statistics, a majority of them still choose to work in easy, comfortable, and low paying jobs.

So idk what to tell you....

*Over the last 6 decades our society has made great strides towards gender equality.... And our society has moved heaven and earth to give women all the tools and resources they need to succeed and be whatever they want to be in this life.... but yet here we are, 60 years later, and the number one paid profession women chose to be is secretary... *

[–]pazz 2 points3 points4 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Often they are jobs with more flexible hours or with better work life balance and a dramatically decreased chance of injury/death...all of these things can reduce the salary of a given job.

[–]ManSeekingToucan 2 points3 points4 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Because women tend to prefer jobs that are less physically demanding, have lower levels of danger, and better hours. More dangerous and physically taxing jobs have to pay more in order for people to take those jobs. Why would someone work in a coal mine if they could make the same money at Wal-Mart?

[–]boringcarpets 1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Easier, soft skilled, more sociable hours, more comfortable working environments, less profitable

[+][deleted] -8 points-7 points-6 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

My bad. What word did you miss in the sentence 'almost all women are able to take care of kids' ?

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