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Feminists in the UK call for lower pension age for women, say it's "equality."

BlueOrange22

October 16, 2017
113 upvotes
/r/MensRights
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/labour-conference-womens-retirement-age-lowered-64-debbie-abrahams-waspi-a7965196.html
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Title Feminists in the UK call for lower pension age for women, say it's "equality."
Author

BlueOrange22

Upvotes 113
Comments 62
Date October 16, 2017 3:58 AM UTC
(8 years ago)
Subreddit Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/76o0m7/feminists_in_the_uk_call_for_lower_pension_age/
Archive Link https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/feminists-in-the-uk-call-for-lower-pension-age-for.912878
https://theredarchive.com/post/912878
Red Pill terms in post
feminist
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Comments

[–][deleted] 49 points50 points51 points 8 years ago (11 children) | Copy Link

It is very telling that at no point do they articulate what actual "injustice" or "unfairness" they have suffered. For the simple reason: they haven't. They have had a privileged bias removed, and boy are they pissed about it. And now they want it back, in the name of.... "equality". The irony is amazing.

Double irony: women have a longer life expectancy, so even with equal pension ages, women can expect significantly more from an identical pension as a man, on average. Equality here might actually be a lower men's pension age, such that the average pensionable life expectancy is roughly identical.

[–]coops678 5 points6 points7 points 8 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

UK based here: I think that the issue itself can be more complex in practice. There are two women I know of who faced more than one redundancy after the 2008 crash and were both unable to find a final job before their pensions kicked into force. Both had their pension ages moved in that time frame so they were unemployed (one was married, the other wasn't) and waiting extra time for the pensions they had paid into to become available/supplement other financial resources. Another example was a friend of the family who quit work to care for their husband full time when he became disabled in his fifties. After he died they also had to wait extra time for the pension they paid into to become available. I guess it's more of a hiccup in the transition to equal pension age and you're right, specific examples should be made clear in the article. It reads very wishy washy as a stand alone piece.

I'm afraid that lowering the male pension age could never work. Britain would go bankrupt so the only real way to deal with the issue is to raise the age of female retirement. As a millennial I currently work from the basis that there will likely be no state pension for me and work to put aside my own private pension pot instead.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points4 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Indeed. Depending on which boundaries you use I am either gen X or Y (aka Millennial), but I don't really care which. I also don't expect a state pension, and I have at least one company pension (of about 10 years payments) that is essentially not worth the stamps they use each year to tell me how little it is now worth. It will be an interesting time.

[+]goldmedalflower1 points 8 years ago [recovered] (3 children) | Copy Link

and waiting extra time for the pensions they had paid into to become available

They didn't wait "extra time". They waited the exact same amount of time as their male counterparts. You know, equality?

[–]coops678 1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago* (2 children) | Copy Link

Not quite. They are waiting extra time on top of what they had planned and saved for which is where the crux of the issue currently lies for a number of people. New changes that moved along a faster timeline were brought into law in 2011 and some females born in the 1950s were given minimum notice of change. E.g. some females were given one year's notice of a change of up to six years. In some cases this hasn't been an issue (just work an extra couple of years, no big deal). In other cases it has caused real problems particularly when other circumstances are at play. It won't be until 2020 before both sexes will have the equal state pension age of 66 for the first time.

[+]goldmedalflower1 points 8 years ago [recovered] (1 child) | Copy Link

Let's say one of the females you are referring to has a twin brother. By comparison, when does she get her pension in relation to his? If it's anything other than, "the exact same date", you know your entire point is ridiculous, right?

[–]coops678 1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

That is a logical and valid example to give. The point of state pension age equality will be true as of 2020 when the balance of status and rights become equal in this respect for both sexes. The issue of opportunity to prepare for retirement is currently skewed for some given the sped up timetable of changes/other factors.

[–]The__Tren__Train 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

women should get men's pensions. that would be complete equality

[–]geniice 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

It sucks for men though since they get a worse annuities since they can no longer account for men's shorter life expectancy.

[–]coops678 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Yep, that was an EU legislation that cited discrimination as a factor, wasn't it? I believe the reasoning prior was that shorter life expectancy factored in an annual higher state pension but I would happily be corrected or provided with extra info if available.

[–]geniice 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

It didn't impact the state pension one way or the other. The issue was with private pensions. They paid out more per year to men due to the lower life expectancy. On the other hand men paid more for car insurance and the like.

[–]coops678 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Thanks for the heads up. I'm gonna go source some more info out of curiosity.

[+]MagicTampon1 points 8 years ago* [recovered] (2 children) | Copy Link

Everyone is equal, but some are more equal than others.

[–]ThePigmanAgain 11 points12 points13 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

As a Pigman, i wholeheartedly support this sentiment.

[–]rg57 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I hear that latenight guy Corden is a pig. I wonder if he'll join the sounder?

[–]ThePigmanAgain 53 points54 points55 points 8 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

It should be the other way 'round. Women live longer, they should have to work longer.

[–][deleted] 11 points12 points13 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Women start work later (higher rates so longer in education), take more leave from the workforce for longer periods, take more sick leave, work part time more often, retire earlier and live longer. Plenty of men would love to be discriminated against like that.

[–]ps288 14 points15 points16 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

agreed

[–]-manatease 2 points3 points4 points 8 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Healthcare spending should at least be equalised to attempt to rectify this.

[–]geniice -1 points0 points1 point 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Current data suggests the most straightforward way to rectify it would be to ban smoking. This isn't politicaly viable.

[–]-manatease 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

No, only part of the gap can be explained by differences in lifestyle, but even if it was the case that it was 100% then there could be preventative healthcare spending/education targeted at males. There's no excuse for spending more money on the sex that lives the longest.

[–]geniice 1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

The reality is that with the increasing pension age it has pretty much reached the point where most people can't work beyond it and trying to mess with that isn't going to save you any further money.

[+]MraBob1 points 8 years ago [recovered] (2 children) | Copy Link

Waspi women (Women Against State Pension Inequality)

Can't make this shit up.

[–]-manatease 5 points6 points7 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Yes, it should be WASPE.

[–]rg57 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

The amazingly bad sequel to WALL-E.

[+]4vfz2ps34j1 points 8 years ago [recovered] (3 children) | Copy Link

Shouldn't men be allowed to retire on benefits sooner? They're far more likely to be killed at work and live much shorter lives than women on average.

[–]The__Tren__Train 2 points3 points4 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

I wonder if that age gap will close now that more and more women are entering the work force..

the stresses of that environment likely leads to a reduced lifespan

[–]Incident-Pit 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I think it's more likely that women have increased lifespans due to the twin factors of average smaller size (generally healthy but smaller animals of the same species tend to live longer than large ones) and being immunologically stronger to account for the huge stresses of childbirth. In the past discrepancy this would have evened out due to pregnancy being vastly more dangerous to the mother than it is today.

Just my 2¢ though.

[–]coops678 1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

The state pension age is being raised for both sexes in the UK to 67 by c.2040. It has been timetabled to raise from 60-65 since 1995 for women but that process has sped up since 2011 when the age of retirement was raised for both sexes to 66 (as of 2020). It's likely going to raise to 68 at some point just cos. The country would likely bankrupt itself if anything were lowered so the only way is up for everyone.

[–]jeff_the_nurse 15 points16 points17 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

When you're privileged, equality can feel like oppression.

[–][deleted] 9 points10 points11 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

66=64. to say otherwise is "misogyny".

[–]Rockbottom503 4 points5 points6 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

They won’t be happy until women can retire upon graduation from university! I’m yet to see any sort of coherent argument on how they suffer any sort of detriment beyond a man who cannot claim a state pension until he’s 65..... as men have ALWAYS had to. The entire group is just butthurt women, pissed off that they were born a bit before the goalposts to qualify early. It doesn’t matter where the goalposts are set, there will always be a group of women somewhere who can’t retire at 60 if they move them again! Maybe I’m just getting grumpy in my old age and my chivalry for women is all but worn out but they’re the women who fought for equality with men, now they’re pissed that being treated equally to men means they’re not being treated equally with older women..... what the hell does that tell you about your structural bias against women that you fought against in the first place?

[–]IronJohnMRA 3 points4 points5 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

why ?

Because feminists want men working to support women, not the other way around. Look for more pushes in the future to lower the pension age even further. For women only.

[–]Spoonwood 3 points4 points5 points 8 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

I didn't see them calling a lowering of the pension age 'equality', though I could have missed it. I did see them calling equal pension age an 'injustice' and saying that the pension age should get lowered for women (only). In other words, lack of female privilege is an injustice. And to that I could not disagree more.

[–]csgardner 4 points5 points6 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

I didn't see them calling a lowering of the pension age 'equality'

It's kind of implied by their name, "Women Against State Pension Inequality."

[–]Spoonwood 1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Oops... I missed that. It is there in the article. Thank you for the correction!

[–]coops678 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

The title of the OP is technically misleading when it says that feminists are calling for a lowering of the pension age seeing as the article is about the Labour Party tabling an issue for parliamentary debate about creating a smoother transition into equal pension age. Also, the WASPIs aren't calling for the pension age to be lowered (again, misleading title), instead they are arguing against aspects of discrimination that they perceive in a sped up timetable of implementation since 2011 that have left some women in difficult and unexpected financial situations. Perhaps the more subtle point is that it is perceived by supporters of WASPIs as affecting the opportunity part of equality (rights, status, opportunity) or egalitarianism in this case in ensuring that people are given fair notice of changes in order to prepare for retirement if they are relying on a state pension (which, if that is the main source of income to be relied upon does not suggest affluence from the outset). More to the point though the only significant changes to pensions in modern history have been made when the Conservatives have been the main party of power (1995 and 2011). The Conservatives historically have the support of OAP votes so having any major political party (Labour, SNP, Plaid Cymru, DUP, Sinn Fein) show support for the issue is a very easy way to garner votes seeing as the Conservatives did not win enough vote share to form a majority in 2017. Offering to fight for enticing legislation on a populist issue may be a straw man argument for Labour to gain a larger vote share at another potentially looming election. It's super interesting to read up on if that's your bag!

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points4 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

since men dies sooner it should be the other way around

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points4 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Maybe we should consider that loss fair trade for all the women who receive their husband's pension benefits as his beneficiary every year, seeing as men die a half decade sooner than their spouses, on average?

[–]McGauth925 1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

One reason to look under every rock for signs of victimhood is to use it for justification for special treatment. Then, it's not sexism; it's parity.

[–]Cabbagepant 1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Feminists in victimhood gimme gimme gimme free stuff because vagina shocker.

[–]nforne 2 points3 points4 points 8 years ago* (22 children) | Copy Link

I wholeheartedly agree that the state pension age of women should be brought in line with that of men, but I do actually have sympathy for this small group of women.

They were very close to retirement when they were told they'd need to work for an extra 5 years. That must have screwed up so many retirement plans.

And most will be married, so it affects their husbands too.

Edit: 5 years not 10

Edit 2: here's a typical story:

Just before I was 60 I was told my State Pension would be delayed and I would not receive this until about 62, so I altered my private pensions accordingly.  Then not long afterwards they have moved the goal posts again and I am not able to retired until I am actually 65, this has had a financial impact upon me.  I also miss out on free bus/train passes and the only service I receive in free prescriptions.

Looking at it financially I have lost out on income for a period of 5 years Government pension, and I have received no compensation for this loss from the Government.  I have also been made redundant twice since I have been 60 and I honestly feel my age goes against me, although companies would not admit this or imply it.

I now find out that my friend who is 5 months older than me will receive her pension this November.  Why is it that I have to go a further 2 years before I receive a pension?  I cannot not understand the logic or reasoning behind this calculation.

[–]Incident-Pit 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

They have known that the pension age was going to be increased for women since the mid 90s. The fact that the politicians kept pushing back the changes and committed to nothing specific until they had to take drastic action shouldn't have come as a surprise to any of these women. At all.

[–]nforne 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

They knew something was coming but I don't think they could have reasonably expected the goalposts to be moved for a second time.

No, I don't have any beef with them.

If you want to be mad at anyone, go for the feminists who are trying to make capital out of this:

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/waspi-women-pension-age-increase-discrimination-poverty-feminism-a7878276.html

A woman born in 1951 will have been 15 when she left school to start work; 24 when the Sex Discrimination and Equal Pay Act came into force; 32 when the Equal Pay for Work of Equal Value Amendment was added; 43 when every working woman won the right to take maternity leave. She will have experienced direct and indirect sexism both at home and in the workplace – marital rape was legal until 1991 – and had little personal or state support in caring for dependants. If she was married, the unpaid labour she contributed in the home will have meant more money in her husband’s pocket, not hers.

In an ideal world, such a woman would be owed compensation for a lifetime of sex-based oppression. Female domestic labour and care work have benefited the economy and come at the expense of older women’s own freedom and emotional well-being. That many women are facing poverty in old age because they “didn’t work” and are now considered unemployable compounds the injustice they’ve endured for decades.

[–]coops678 1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Not gonna lie, I read this quote imagining it in the voice of this lady:

https://youtu.be/XHrvNYUTTpw

[–]nforne 1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Ah, the Hugh Mungus lady! So that's what she's up to these days...

[–]coops678 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Indeed! Her YouTube videos are excellent to watch!!

[–]Incident-Pit 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

I struggling to see the "mad" aspect to what I wrote. Regardless, the goalposts weren't moved twice. The ultimate goal was always the harmonisation of the male and female retirement ages.

[–]nforne 2 points3 points4 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

"Mad at the wrong people" is just a figure of speech to say you're going after the wrong target. The pensioners' complaints are being hijacked by feminists who are suggesting that all these women have had dreadful lives and deserve compensation for being oppressed.

If you want to change people's perceptions of MRAs, one very simple way would be to support these women pensioners, as they have good reason to be angry at the system; while simultaneously attacking the bullshit reasons the feminists give for defending them.

[–]cld8 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (14 children) | Copy Link

They were very close to retirement when they were told they'd need to work for an extra 5 years. That must have screwed up so many retirement plans.

The legislation to increase the pension age passed years ago. They may not have received a personalized letter from the government informing them of their retirement age, but if they had been paying attention, they should have known.

No matter when you make the change, there will be someone who just missed the cutoff.

[–]nforne 1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (13 children) | Copy Link

The legislation to increase the pension age passed years ago.

And if the government had done it's job, calculated the new retirement ages and notified those affected back when the legislation was passed, then nobody would have any grounds for complaint.

They may not have received a personalized letter from the government informing them of their retirement age...

They should have.

...but if they had been paying attention, they should have known.

Perhaps, but for a change of this magnitude, I think it was reasonable to expect a letter explaining how it affected them personally.

No matter when you make the change, there will be someone who just missed the cutoff.

Of course, but that's only part of the issue. The government made a hash of implementing the changes, and people were not properly informed.

[–]cld8 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (12 children) | Copy Link

It certainly would have been nice if the government had provided everyone with a personalized notice, but they are under no obligation to do so. Ignorance of the law is not an excuse. And even if there had been individual notices, people would still say that they didn't get them, didn't read them, didn't understand them, etc.

[–]nforne 2 points3 points4 points 8 years ago (11 children) | Copy Link

That's a fair point.

What I'm getting at though is that this isn't really a men's rights issue. These women aren't complaining about the pension age being brought in line with men.

Attacking them, when most of the public are sympathetic to their cause, will only reinforce the view that we hate women.

[–]cld8 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (10 children) | Copy Link

These women aren't complaining about the pension age being brought in line with men.

It's hard to say exactly what they are complaining about, because the article is about a proposal that hasn't been formulated yet. However, my feeling is that they are just looking for an excuse to let women retire earlier. The "chaotic mismanagement" is just an excuse, and if the government had provided more notice, they would have found something else to complain about.

Attacking them, when most of the public are sympathetic to their cause, will only reinforce the view that we hate women.

I'm not in the UK so I don't know what the public feels about this, but it's important to frame this as an equality issue, rather than attacking anyone. We don't hate anyone, but we want everyone to be treated equally.

[–]coops678 2 points3 points4 points 8 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

It's a sensible cause for any UK party to lend their name to if they wish to gain votes away from the Conservatives who are traditionally favoured by Brits age 50+. I agree with u/nforne who points out that the issue is not about equalising the pension age but instead about the timetable being sped up with more than one change since 2011 leading to serious consequences for some. Here's a couple articles that I pulled from 2011 that ought to give some overview of sentiment/info if you are interested:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-13834281 http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/personalfinance/pensions/8824365/Women-will-get-pension-six-months-earlier-after-Coalition-climbdown.html https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2011/feb/01/pension-changes-women

They don't really encompass the actual outcry at the time which was loud and significant enough to push for a six month change to the timetable of implementation to be brought into law by the government.

[–]cld8 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

Thanks for the links. This seems to be a lot more nuanced than the original post suggested.

[–]coops678 1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

A couple years ago my opinion was that the changes were fair and that those who complained were out of line. I read into it a fair amount and realised that it really is affecting, albeit, a relatively small group of women quite dramatically. I sense also that because the changes affect the state pension age (and access to the state pension) that the folks who are really worst off are those relying mostly/solely on their state pension or who have had other factors like unemployment issues in later years or 'worked' as full time care which suggests that they are far from affluent or able to absorb major financial changes. The significant changes that the Conservatives have made to many public spending pots in the UK is worthy of investigation by anyone wishing to challenge their beliefs on state support and public spending. Often the change to principal is laughably out of line with the practice and there are a huge number of injustices in many transitions in the UK just now affecting the vulnerable. Check out the implementation of/changes to universal credit or disability benefits of you want an afternoon of incredibly grim reading. The ones that continue to stick in my head are family accounts of a man with severe mental health issues who died with pennies to his name and no food in his stomach after being deemed fit to work or some people whose families received fit to work letters (no longer eligible for state support) in the post shortly after said person died from chronic illness or suicide.

[–]cld8 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

I understand that these changes affect a lot of people, but that is really beside the point. It is really an issue of fairness. There are plenty of men who are also short on retirement funds and need to work longer than they intended due to downturns in the economy and other factors. Why should the plight of this particular batch of women receive special consideration?

[–]nforne 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

I'll be honest, my initial reaction was to suspect the same, but this is from the WASPI website:

THE AIM OF THE CAMPAIGN IS: TO ACHIEVE FAIR TRANSITIONAL STATE PENSION ARRANGEMENTS FOR ALL WOMEN BORN IN THE 1950S AFFECTED BY THE CHANGES TO THE STATE PENSION LAW (1995/2011 ACTS)

This translates into a 'bridging' pension to provide an income until State Pension Age - not means-tested - and with compensation for losses for those women who have already reached their SPA.  There are no specific age groups within the period mentioned above that are favoured above others.​

We do not ask for the pension age to revert back to age 60

[–]cld8 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Thanks for looking this up. While it does make it seem better, why do they draw the line where they do? Their proposal currently covers women born in the 50s, but what about someone born in 1960 who just missed the cutoff? Will those women also unite to push the date back even further? They will have had more warning, but they can always come up with other reasons.

[–]nforne 1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

There's more information in this article:

www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/election-2017-40014575

I think it's important to draw a distinction between WASPI on the one hand, and those feminists who are seeking to use their complaint to push their own agenda, like whoever is behind this article:

www.independent.co.uk/voices/waspi-women-pension-age-increase-discrimination-poverty-feminism-a7878276.html

We need to tread carefully here to make sure we attack the right people.

[–]rg57 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

So it's not enough that they live longer and draw on the pensions more... the start age has to be lowered TOO?

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