While males deal with 18 years of slavery, fake rape charges, high amounts of child support/alimony, sexual harassment at work, suffer from societies expectations of them, happen to lose their kids, and are now facing domestic violence, females breeze by.

[–]WillMeatLover 31 points32 points33 points 9 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

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i'll give this a shot:

1 - many pharmaceuticals are not properly tested on women. Testing on women was curtailed because early research produced birth defects in the children born by female test subjects long after initial tests.
2 - most prevalent heroes are masculine and people today conflate power with masculine power. To be a powerful woman one needs to be a strong woman, meaning they need to kick ass like a powerful man would.
3 - In many places they cannot go topless. I thought they could go topless anywhere in Canada but apparently it's only in some of the provinces.
4 - Street harassment. I didn't want to put this down because it happens to men too, and men are much more likely to face random assault on the street, but apparently women face street harassment much more than men do.
5 - I believe there is a strong implicit bias in people to view women as objects and men as agents. It drives many cultural forces (modern feminism is entirely based around treating women as objects while simultaneously denouncing the objectification of women when it doesn't benefit them). It may even benefit women more than it detriments them, but it is still discrimination. It may cause mechanics to primarily address the man when a man/woman couple comes in, it may cause women's opinions to be less heard in an office, but it also may cause the man to be considered a rapist when a drunk woman and a drunk man have sex together.

This was really hard to do, not because women don't face real discrimination but because our culture is so over saturated with fallacious notions of women's discrimination.

Also, fundamentally these issues all come down to nature so they don't exactly satisfy your request, but all sexual discrimination comes down to nature at the root level.

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[–]boringcarpets 3 points4 points5 points 9 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]ChromaticFinish 4 points5 points6 points 9 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Condoms exist. And remind me what reproductive healthcare and options are available to men

These are distinct issues. Abortion is a question of bodily autonomy. HBC is not only used as a contraceptive, but in legislation is almost always treated like it is. Condoms are completely unrelated, and the lack of options for men is certainly an issue, but we don't have legal debates over whether a man should be allowed to get a vasectomy.

If you only include sex trafficking, if slavery is include then no, the vast majority is not female

http://www.ilo.org/wcmsp5/groups/public/---ed_norm/---declaration/documents/publication/wcms_182004.pdf

Even if you include slavery, women are over-represented in human trafficking victims.

Women are represented plenty in tv and movies

The numbers disagree with you. Women have fewer speaking roles.

Choice. Not only do women not go into politics in the same numbers, female voters have been known to vote for men and do so regularly

My point is that our culture shapes people's life decisions. We treat boys and girls differently from birth. Kids gender police like crazy. Issues like the wage gap and female representation in politics are not always due to literal discrimination, but they are a direct result of the way we push individuals to conform to their traditional gender roles.

Suicide is a choice which people make. Is male suicide not a problem, then, because those men are making choices? Or are the differences between male and female suicides due to the differences between male and female life experiences?

don't be so bitter that you think women face the only issues

I wrote that comment in response to someone who suggested that women's issues literally don't exist. I never suggested that men's issues don't exist.

[–]TheBearJedi 2 points3 points4 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

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[–]WillMeatLover 21 points22 points23 points 9 years ago (33 children) | Copy Link

That's just it, you can't disregard nature and life choices because nature affects people unfairly and choices aren't free.

I'm not God and neither is the state. It isn't anyone's responsibility to fix your biology. If you hate living in a human body so much then transcend into a metaphysical philosopher king. We all have to make opportunity choices. You can't eat your cake and have it too.

You are not entitled to a family or a career. You are not entitled to degrees or honors. You are not entitled to anything in life except what you work for. Collectively, we form a society and agree to multiply our productivity by working together and agreeing to certain rules. This is what we call civilization. But what you are talking about is the bane of civilization. That people are just "owed" things they haven't worked for simply because they are alive. It's parasitic, short-sighted, selfish, and stupid.

Things like tampons are a necessity and place a financial burden on women that has no male counterpart.

None of our necessities are subsidized unless we are on welfare. And even then, most of the time it is designed to get you back to self-sufficiency and not to just take care of you for the rest of your life (that's the idea anyway, even if it fails terribly in many countries these days).

Women "choosing" to put off their career face much greater societal pressure to do that.

I don't care. Your feelings are not anyone else's responsibilities and you don't have the right to dictate how people think about issues. I don't care if your parents want you to have kids and you don't. It is wrong for the government to send them to re-education camps. You just have to live your own life like an adult.

A woman who chooses not to is a "bad mother" while a that's the standard course of action for men.

I also just don't believe you. Our culture regularly glorifies mothers literally no matter what. Whether they are deserving of it or not. Fathers are the ones who are regularly vilified by our culture.

I'm not going to list things out for you right now because it's almost 3am and I have to sleep, but we can talk more about it tomorrow if you are interested.

If it's more of the same you can just save your breath.

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The men chose to get married knowing the deck is stacked against them.

What the fuck do you think mgtow is and how it would apply to all of this? You shouldn't need me to draw you a map, but I guess I have to... Did someone say dumb?

A laundry list of those 'problems' are the direct result of men making a personal choice - society doesn't owe them anything either, m'right? They walked into it with their eyes wide open and they got burned by their choices and decisions.

Why should men be afforded sympathy in your 'society' but not women? MRAs believe in equality. Many of us are egalitarian. If you don't like society having a hard heart towards men why push it on women?

We want equal rights and justice for men and women not more absurd gender hypocrisy - it's been 60 years of hypocrisy parading around as gender equality and the solution is to destroy the pendulum not swing it back the other way.

[–]WillMeatLover 1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago* (4 children) | Copy Link

The men chose to get married knowing the deck is stacked against them. What the fuck do you think mgtow is and how it would apply to all of this? You shouldn't need me to draw you a map, but I guess I have to... Did someone say dumb?

Our society does everything in its power to brainwash and lie to our youth.

You start with a flat out lie right there. Men do not go in armed with knowledge. You should try not being dumb yourself before throwing that word around.

A laundry list of those 'problems' are the direct result of men making a personal choice

Then why are you struggling so hard to list anything?

society doesn't owe them anything either, m'right?

I never said society doesn't owe ANYTHING to ANYONE. I said it doesn't owe anyone a career or a family. It doesn't owe you slaves either.

Why should men be afforded sympathy in your 'society' but not women?

I never said that. Do not put words on my mouth.

MRAs believe in equality. Many of us are egalitarian.

I don't care. I speak for myself. I don't adopt labels and shut off my brain. I just represent myself and I speak to the points.

If you don't like society having a hard heart towards men why push it on women?

I never said that. Stop putting words in my mouth. I said women are not entitled to FAMILY and a CAREER. No one is entitled to one or both. If you want either, you have to work for them. You also are not entitled to slaves. Others are not obligated to bend to your will. They do not owe you their love. They do not owe you a job in their hard earned businesses. I am sympathetic to other human beings, but I am not hysterical or bigoted. I care about innocent people who are fair and work hard more than I care about lazy people who want to obfuscate and deceive for their own selfish reasons.

We want equal rights and justice for men and women not more absurd gender hypocrisy - it's been 60 years of hypocrisy parading around as gender equality and the solution is to destroy the pendulum not swing it back the other way.

You won't get anything resembling it your way. You have to speak to the truth. As an example, if resources are allocated such that there are 2000 DV shelters for women and 1 for men (IIRC those are the numbers in America) then to correct that you have to address a number of issues. If we are so rich that we can just build 1999 more for men then that might work, but for one thing that's very unlikely to be true. When you rework the budget to make things fair something is going to happen to those 2000 women's shelters. It's a complicated issue that could go a lot of ways and I don't have the details in front of me, but before we can ever get to a stage where accountants can try to figure out how to fund things we have to address why things are like that in the first place. Because of human nature and the hysterics of our times. Just the information being published is opposed. We live in a time where approaching 60% of university graduates are women and this is not only seen as a good thing, but we are pushing for more. The pendulum is stilling smashing hard into male meat grinding.

And you want to say to me that I am unfair when I say women should be adults in our society that help contribute to it more than they take out? That I am unfair when I say we as a society account for them we should do so rationally and not hysterically (i.e. not overspend uselessly and to the detriment of other issues)? Stop putting words in my mouth, stop regurgitating rhetoric at me, and read what I actually said.

[–][deleted] -1 points0 points1 point 9 years ago* (20 children) | Copy Link

[–]WillMeatLover 3 points4 points5 points 9 years ago (17 children) | Copy Link

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Using comparisons to make a point is a common discussion/debate technique. It highlights hypocrisy and faulty logic. You probably do it all the time.

If it could be argued that women are significantly disadvantaged due to their biology, if we are to provide for disabled people I don't think we can get around also providing for women. Whereas, based on what you've said, it seems you feel that we should provide for disabled people (if we can afford it as a society) but not for women, even if they are biologically disadvantaged, because "[they] are not entitled for anything [they] don't work for".

On the topic of whether or not women are biologically disadvantaged, I was against a tampon tax and wasn't sure on whether or not they should be subsidised. I hope you'll be pleased to hear that /u/abaxeron has been convincing in his post and changed my position.

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Things like tampons are a necessity and place a financial burden on women

No they're not - moon cup exists. There is literally the option to not spend "all that money" on tampons, plus it eliminates the problem of toxic shock syndrome, that's a win win, but there are no whinge points.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/womens-politics/11957498/The-campaign-to-end-VAT-on-tampons-is-one-of-the-silliest-the-sisterhood-has-ever-mounted.html

The average woman menstruates for four days a month and uses 20 tampons for each period. That is 240 tampons a year. Superdrug’s own-brand tampons are priced (quite typically for tampons in most stores) at £1.89 for 32 regular sized.

The average woman therefore needs eight boxes to get her through an entire year, giving an annual spend on tampons of around £15

Quite the "financial burden"

Bonus pink tax debunk:

her annual VAT bill for sanitary products would be a whopping – wait for it - 75 pence a year.

[–]TracyMorganFreeman 4 points5 points6 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Things like tampons are a necessity and place a financial burden on women that has no male counterpart.

Humanity didn't go extinct before the existence of tampons. They are a very useful luxury, not a need.

Women "choosing" to put off their career face much greater societal pressure to do that.

Which means those women value the personal opinions of those they know over that career aspiration.

Who are you tell her what her priorities should be?

If you look at what the real effects of biology and societal pressures on women the "choices" they make the problems they face make more sense.

Translation: you don't want women to be held to the same standard of agency as men.

Men are pressured, men have biological concerns. You don't use those as reasons to dismiss any privilege men may have.

[–]abaxeron 8 points9 points10 points 9 years ago* (2 children) | Copy Link

Things like tampons are a necessity and place a financial burden on women that has no male counterpart.

Male bodies, within comparable age group and comparable lifestyle, require up to 30% more nutrients to stay alive, healthy, and active, as early as since the age of SIX.

that has no male counterpart.

Name me one country where men get universal discounts on food on the basis of their sex.

that has no male counterpart.

Name me one non-profit NGO that feeds the poor and accounts for sex differences in calorie needs.

that has no male counterpart.

Calculate your monthly spendings on food, divide by 3 (or even by 4, let's be generous), and compare to your monthly spendings on menstrual products that exist in a short window from menarche to around the age 45, unlike men's elevated necessity of greater calorie intake that exists since the age of 6 and up until their death.

You are a disgusting psychopath.

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There is no such thing as over treated.

Yes there is. Several things occur when we overspend on an issue.

(1) Diminishing returns: more resources does not obtain more results after a certain point. You can't just endlessly throw money at a problem to solve it. (2) Other issues end up being ignored and having less than the bare minimum resources supplied to them because of misallocation. Stating the obvious here: our total resources are finite. (3) Misspent money usually ends up in the pockets of useless people who are thus more motivated to be useless and lobby for more misallocation of resources.

Just because men lack resources doesn't mean those things arnt hard on woman.

I didn't say that.

Being raped is very traumatizing even with a million resources. Same with abuse or mental illness. Its unfair to minimize woman's issues the same way feminists minimize mens.

Immaterial. First I say, I am not God. None of us are. We cannot reduce the pain and struggles in people's lives to zero. It isn't my burden or the state's to make sure you are never in pain, even traumatizingly so. Second, I never minimized women's issues.

You are spouting a bunch of hysterical nonsense.

Women's problems are not caused by a society that hates them for their biological attributes nor are they ignored by an apathetic society. We are in a society that cares so much about women's problems that excessive and useless amounts of money are spent on real issues and even many imaginary ones (like manspreading and whatever the latest microaggressions are).

[–]Doctor_StrangeLuv 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

I stand corrected on the over treated thing.

I am not saying it is anyones job to make sure woman's (or mens) lives are free of all suffering. I am just saying I think it is wrong to say all woman have it easy. Just because they arnt being discriminated against doesn't mean they magically have issue free easy lives. Don't get me wrong, I'm 100% for men's rights and agree with a lot on this sub. But I don't think it is fair to act like womans lives are easy breezy just because they are woman. You may not have said it and if you dont think that, then I'm sorry for assuming so. Some of the things you said came across that way.

Not to mention woman face a lot of shame and judgement about rape still. They may have resources but law enforcement and people still dismiss them unless it is a "he tied me up and raped me" type of situation. I'm not saying they have it as hard as men as far as being taken seriously goes, I'm just saying it's not like woman don't have judgement issues with rape as well.

[–]WillMeatLover 4 points5 points6 points 9 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

I am just saying I think it is wrong to say all woman have it easy.

I never said that. Do not put words in my mouth.

Not to mention woman face a lot of shame and judgement about rape still. They may have resources but law enforcement and people still dismiss them unless it is a "he tied me up and raped me" type of situation.

I don't believe you. Feminists are constantly screeching about issues that exist nowhere but in their imaginations. They also fool a lot of ignorant people into thinking the same because they simply do not have the knowledge to contradict it.

Have you ever reported a rape to the police? I'm guessing no. Because unless you found the worst police ever, then you would know they take these things very seriously and are often overzealous.

Alright, never mind anecdotes then. Do you read the statistics? Pay any sort of attention to the news? Follow court cases?

If you did then you would know that women are so supported that flat out liars get mountains of support regularly by the media, by the authorities, and by notable segments of society. How much more support can they possibly get?

I'm not saying they have it as hard as men as far as being taken seriously goes, I'm just saying it's not like woman don't have judgement issues with rape as well.

What you are saying is a lot of tiresome regurgitated rhetoric. In what way does the system punish women for being women? Are women who are raped ignored? Told they are gay if they didn't like it? Denied access to domestic abuse shelters?

And before this issue is obfuscated anymore let me return us to the point. The OP tells a very simple but very acute story. Feminism teaches women that they are oppressed and that this oppressed is at the hands of hateful sexist patriarchy (read: men) which does it all to benefit men. This is an absurd lie.

(1) Women are the most privileged class in our society by every single metric (2) Men do not benefit from women's alleged suffering (3) Men toil endlessly for the benefit of all (women are the main beneficiaries) (4) Men have a host of grievous issues that are ignored, enabled, encouraged, or caused by society

[–]Doctor_StrangeLuv 3 points4 points5 points 9 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

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[–]WillMeatLover 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I was raped actually. And one of the first questions was what I was wearing. It was not taken very seriously because he was my friend. And many people in my life assumed I made it up because woman make that stuff up all the time. Even my boyfriend judged me because I didn't try my hardest to fight him off.

I'm surprised to hear it, but that is how the tide will eventually turn because there are so many liars out there. It is exactly because of liars that hardships for real victims will arise.

Here is a reasonably good short video on the topic. I think he fails to make one reasonably obvious point but I will save that until after you have seen the video if you are interested.

I think we are both misunderstanding each others points here. The reason i thought you were saying woman have it easy is because when i said they don't you dissagreed with me.

Most people who have easy lives are rich. End of story. Being female helps regardless of economic status, but doesn't guarantee an easy life. It does protect you from the many challenges pitted against men though.

I'm sorry for putting words in your mouth.

Don't be sorry. Just don't do it.

I agree with you that men are systematically discriminated against and woman are socially and legally more privalaged.

Well, that's something, I guess.

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