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"If we use proof in rape cases, we fall into the patterns of rape deniers.

PierceHarlan

January 6, 2016
310 upvotes
/r/MensRights
http://www.cotwa.info/2016/01/my-favorite-quote-of-2015-if-we-use.html
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Post Information
Title "If we use proof in rape cases, we fall into the patterns of rape deniers.
Author

PierceHarlan

Upvotes 310
Comments 48
Date January 6, 2016 1:46 PM UTC
(10 years ago)
Subreddit Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/3zpu4l/if_we_use_proof_in_rape_cases_we_fall_into_the/
Archive Link https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/if-we-use-proof-in-rape-cases-we-fall-into-the.963780
https://theredarchive.com/post/963780
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Comments

[–]ay_ch 108 points109 points110 points 10 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

If we use proof in rape cases, we fall into the patterns of rape deniers.

I do like the way she thinks. That should be the standard for every crime.

So, like, the guy in the office who ate part of my lunch out of the refrigerator the other month and who rudely inserts himself into my private conversations and who might get the promotion that I want to get? I totally saw him murder someone. And, uh, he stuffed the body into a barrel of acid like Heisenberg and poured the acid into the sea so there's no proof of anything and no photographs or nothing. But I'm accusing him, so it happened, for realsies. Doubleplus scouts' honor.

To deny my accusation is no better than denying that murder exists! Sobs!

Sniffle My tears say more than any facts ever could, do they not? Sobs harder!

[–]jasongadgetguy 2 points3 points4 points 10 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

so If we use proof in "Crime" cases, we fall into the patterns of "Crime" deniers. Its a labeling thing. we can use terrorism, hate crimes, abuse, theft, or anything else really.

Once we change the label to a fundamental action (as opposed to a specific one), the power of the label "symbol" loses its power for agendas/war/supremacy, and promotes its power for agreement/peace/equality

Innocence until proven guilty, not the other way around.

[–]ay_ch 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

The truly innocent have nothing to fear!

[–]ChaosStar95 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

/the problem is that with this mindset rape accusations make the accused an actual rapist until proven they're not and even then you've already labeled said person a rapist and society will treat them as such even if they are completely innocent. So yes a truly innocent person has everything to fear with this mindset.

[–]I_FUCK_UP_RECIPES 30 points31 points32 points 10 years ago (14 children) | Copy Link

One has to wonder what these people will do if they succeed. When evil men start falsely accusing women of rape and forcing the universities to follow through on the very policies these people supported. When the very system they worked to create eats them.

I mean, obviously the answer is try to not allow men to use it, but then they'd be in violation of Title IX.

[–]AtomicBLB 34 points35 points36 points 10 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

Laughable, as if women would be held to the same standards. Just like with rape they will only say that when it applies to men and pretend women can't be guilty of such things.

[–]ManFromTheMun 13 points14 points15 points 10 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

I have heard so, so many times in my life "Guys cant be raped", or "You can't rape the willing". I understand its a joke, but guys can be raped too.

[–]Lvl_14_Metapod 7 points8 points9 points 10 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

Not in my state

[–]magnetflavoredwater 4 points5 points6 points 10 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Is there any reason not to evolve metapod?

[–]My_Dog_Jax 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

You tend to lose the hardened tackles if you do.

[–]Paladin327 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Everyone knows unevolved pokemon are stronger

[–]I_FUCK_UP_RECIPES 6 points7 points8 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

And if the school structure follows through, lawsuits ensue. As it has presently with the due process rights of men being violated. One would hope the existing round of lawsuits settles the issue as "you still have to prove it, asshole."

Either students have these rights in college or they don't.

[–]SworntotheDeath 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

The problem is that these people are highly educated and are future social leaders, no matter how hard I have to try to stifle laughter whenever I hear of people who get degrees in womens' studies or whatever. This thinking will not be contained to colleges in the years to come. It is going to spread, and if we wish to defend freedom and rights of the accused, we're going to have to be on our toes.

[–]zaiguy 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Rape =forced penetration + systemic privilege

[–]ulthrant82 13 points14 points15 points 10 years ago* (1 child) | Copy Link

Except they have the very definition of rape as a man as the aggressor. According to them women can't rape, therefor cannot be charged with it.

Edit: What they'll end up with is a world full of men who are so sick and tired of getting kicked in the nuts they pull away from women entirely. They'll stop going to college, getting married, having kids. Collapse. The women's movement did a lot of good in the past. Now it aims to tear down the whole system in a pathetic attempt to remain the victim.

[–]bertreapot 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Honestly, this makes me wonder if this is the reason the sexes had traditionally been separated in the first place. Best not to have a situation where men and women are left alone together, because eventually a claim of harassment or rape is going to happen, and without any evidence besides her word against his, it is very difficult to discern what actually happened.

[–]ryeshoes3 points 10 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I love things like title IX don't get me wrong. But if you go and read "myth of the rule of law" you'll realize that the evaluation of law is largely subjective (though not completely haywire) - I wouldn't be surprised if there were some sort of uniform interpretation of law similar to how there's a ~30% chance that any particular law or bill will be passed, regardless of public opinion.

My point is that while we could potentially argue that any law passed that helps women can be used against them, in practice it's rarely the case - hence the fight against gynocentrism and the MRM

[–]bertreapot 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

my guess is if men started doing this, all of a sudden people would be very skeptical of their claims. Imagine the feminists that staff a university conduct board blindly believing a man like they would a woman. It's not going to happen.

[–]MaestroLogical 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

It would never be allowed to reach a critical mass. The arbitrary nature of it (which is 110% intended for exactly the situation you outline) means they will simply reward any girl brought forth on 'unfounded' charges while summarily expelling the man that made a 'false' accusation for personal gain. Once a few of these incidents play out to national approval... men will quickly realize its a futile game to attempt and just opt out.

[–]publicbigguns 12 points13 points14 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

The part that really gets me about this is if you don't need proof to prove a rape occurred, your also saying that there is no amount of proof you can provide to prove that it DIDN'T happen.

Scary thought of the day*

[–]bertreapot 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

The solution to this is let yourself get expelled from school or convicted of a crime, then present all the evidence of your innocence that you were squirreling away. Not that it would change their minds.

[–]Ovendice 19 points20 points21 points 10 years ago* (9 children) | Copy Link

The insane level of ARROGANCE of women that assumes that no female ever lies. HAha Even more insane considering that lying, fraud and false accusations are women's very operating system.

And this is an excellent example of how Feminism trumps everything in the minds of women and makes them completely stupid. "What is due process? What is that? You mean I have to PROVE a crime was committed? In a court of law?" They might as well be asking, "What is a post office? You take mail there? What are taxes?" HAHA

Yes, Little Sally, that's called the United States Justice System, the rest of us learned about in grade school.. where the fuck were you? SO BIZARRE.

But then again, not really when you throw Feminism into the mix.. Feminism completely warps your mind, makes you completely ignorant and incredibly stupid. That's why when we attempt to talk to Feminist women (and most women in the West today) they are so incredibly ignorant of EVERYTHING like they just got here from an alien planet. (Ironically making them even MORE unfit for the professional world).

And these are COLLEGE students no less.. isn't that supposed to be WHY you're there in the first place? Because you're supposed to be SMART? HAHA What a JOKE.

[–]Ninja_Wizard_69 2 points3 points4 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

I know that you're blowing this out of proportion and exaggerating things, but I can't help myself agreeing with most of this.

[–]Ovendice 3 points4 points5 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

It really isn't an exaggeration at all. I talk to the absolute, supposedly, 'brightest' women everyday, all day long in my profession and the absolute smartest of them are only strictly average intelligence. And still most of them are ignorant of virtually everything and you have to constantly, constantly explain everything to them like you do with 5 year olds.

You have to remember, women's heads for the most part are filled to the brim with nothing but trash. They have an entirely separate culture from men now, they're own TV shows, movies, magazines, women only forums, clubs and we might as well just call every single shopping mall and strip mall female-centric because any man feels like he's a criminal just for being there.

And all of it is nothing but trash culture mixed with Feminism; the only 'intellectual' field women even care about. (Well, now there's psychology as well since Feminists have turned that into nothing more than another branch of Feminism).

Gossip, extreme shallowness and superficiality, who do all the other women like because I can't think for myself, "I'm only interested in marrying a man for his money," shopping, rape, rape, rape, rape, rape, "I was a victim; I have no agency like a mentally retarded toddler," divorce, alimony, child support, pre-nups, child custody, vindictiveness, fraud, false accusations, blackmail and on and on and on - all of THE most sickening, trashiest, dirtiest, slimiest, grossest, crassest, shallowest human thought and behavior possible with ZERO inventiveness, creativity or contributions to the world.

And women REVEL in it. Want to clear out a room full of women? Start talking about science or how to build anything, how industry works, anything constructive or truly interesting or productive or educational. A woman's head is a DUMPSTER full of TRASH. And she LIKES IT THAT WAY.

[–]Paladin327 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

The insane level of ARROGANCE of women that assumes that no female ever lies.

"Women never lie ever! Oh, i tood Sara that her new dress looked great, but it looked terrible!"

[–]TheMouseRan 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

Your first sentence was so good; it is arrogant to think that any group wouldn't lie. Then you jump straight into being sexist. Fraud, lying and false accusations are no more women's "operating system" than rape, physical abuse, and boorishness are men's "operating system"

This sub too often falls into a circle-jerk of woman bashing. Let's be above that. Girls are awesome, and women should be our allies in advocating for men's rights.

PS: As a college student in ChE I can tell you, lots of people in Uni are idiots.

[–]Ovendice 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

Fraud, lying and false accusations are no more women's "operating system" than rape, physical abuse, and boorishness are men's "operating system"

Today's women in the U.S. after 50 years of Feminism have turned most women into creeps whose very operating system is fraud, lying, false accusations and manipulation.

Men don't have a 50 year old 'movement' like Feminism that has absolved them of all accountability, tells them they are above the opposite sex and to look down on them and tells them they can do no wrong. Nor do men live in a society in the U.S. where evil is rewarded the way evil rewarded for women.

Men couldn't use rape, physical abuse and boorishness as an operating system even if they wanted to, because men are held accountable for everything they do. Women are NOT held accountable for anything they do and are REWARDED in this Feminist society for evil; fraud, lying and false accusations. Get it now?

Let's try to move on from this simpleton, 5 year old little 'lecture' that "there are good women and there are bad women the same way there are bad men and there are good men." No, men are held accountable, women are not. THAT is the night and day difference.

If men could get away with anything and were rewarded for evil, most men would be just as vile and evil as most American women are today. Or a simpler way of saying it is, "Why do women do all of these horrendous things? BECAUSE THEY CAN." They have a license to and THAT has a tremendous effect on how people behave, don't fool yourself.

American and/or Feminist women, which basically ALL western women are whether they claim to be Feminist or not, they all LIVE like Feminists are NOT 'awesome,' they're vile, entitled, completely unaccountable with no character at all and they are NOT your 'allies.'

They hate you and laugh at male suicide and anything that harms men because they have been taught to hate you by the educational system that is now Feminist to the very core, taught by all media and Feminism itself. And women don't just simply 'say' they hate men, they proactively DO horrendous things to men daily and constantly that are a direct result of their seething hatred and jealousy of men.

And anytime they are offering you anything, they are playing you and you're falling for it like a sucker. They are 1000 times more sophisticated at manipulation than you or any man will ever be because that is all they DO. Meanwhile men have to do all of the hard work and heavy lifting in this world and don't have the TIME to learn how to be manipulative frauds. And the men who are manipulative frauds? Society has a name for them: Criminals. Who go to prison. Meanwhile women are rewarded for fraud and manipulation with cash, prizes and adulation and society doesn't even call it a crime when women do it.

[–]TheMouseRan 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

"Men don't have a 50 year old 'movement' like Feminism that has absolved them of all accountability."

There is an extremist sect for which this is true. It's fair to call it out since it's important to combat extremists. A major way of doing so is by appealing to and explaining the issues to regular and reasonable people. Hence my offense at your previous reference to women's "operating system."

This sub has been trending toward becoming more of an area for venting angst, than that of insightful and meaningful discussion. I will say that I appreciate this response. It's very well thought out.

I especially like your statements regarding accountability. That also explains the prevalence of men in prisons (in comparison to women). In my mind it also explains the gender pay gap (which is due to women's direction toward higher temporal flexibility instead of pay : excellent freakonomics podcast http://freakonomics.com/2016/01/07/the-true-story-of-the-gender-pay-gap-a-new-freakonomics-radio-podcast/ )

You lose me here : "American and/or Feminist women, which basically ALL western women are whether they claim to be Feminist or not, they all LIVE like Feminists are NOT 'awesome,' they're vile, entitled, completely unaccountable with no character at all and they are NOT your 'allies.'"

I am for increased rights of all people. Genghis Khan gave a famous speech to his children, where he snaps a twig over his knee. Then he grasps a bundle of twigs and cannot snap it. Different groups, whether they be men or women should follow this example. We are STRONGER together.

As a student at UCSB I have experienced the use of Feminism as manipulative leverage against myself and my views. People who do this will not be persuaded. They are the minority, they just scream loudly.

Victim & Outrage Culture is a tool of our PC generation. You're inciting examples of people laughing at male suicide, to create the feeling of victim-hood in your reader and garner further outrage. Let's not fall into this kind of rhetoric. That's a gross misrepresentation of 99% of the fairer sex.

"And anytime they are offering you anything, they are playing you and you're falling for it like a sucker. They are 1000 times more sophisticated at manipulation than you or any man will ever be because that is all they DO."

I have the feeling you have been burned personally. So have I, but I love and respect women and so should you.

[–]Ovendice 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

You lose me here : American and/or Feminist women, which basically ALL western women are whether they claim to be Feminist or not, they all LIVE like Feminists

This is where I lose a lot of men who are much younger and have no point of reference nor can they remember a time before Feminism went mainstream and ALL women, 99%, became belligerent, confrontational, catty, toxic, whorish, butch, unaccountable, etc. All of that is FEMINISM.

Today, the goal post as to what are 'Feminists' has simply been moved and now only the most insane Slutwalk type Feminists, i.e., the ones who do street protests and/or write for Jezebel are considered 'Feminists.'

Whereas if a man from 1966 traveled here to 2016 in a time machine, he would be horrified and nauseated by the way ALL American women act today. Feminism is now mainstream and our very culture and the very reason why more than half of all men are not marrying and most of them now not even dating. That's 150 million men rejecting as many women and more. The Slutwalk and Jezebel Feminists are only a tiny minority. It's important to pinpoint what the problem is so you know what you are fighting.

The only way a human society can exist and survive is for women to be obedient housewives and mothers and that's it. And that is the way more than half of the planet still operates and has since the dawn of time. Anything else is the suicide of a people. As a result of Feminism, the U.S. and Europe have been way under replacement birth rates for decades. Why do you think the governments over there are letting millions of immigrants from the middle east pour in? And letting them pour into the U.S. Because whites are not reproducing and we are already a dead race that has suicided and Feminism was the cyanide pill.

[–]TheMouseRan 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Didn't go past the first sentence. You've clearly deluded yourself and I cannot imagine someone more pretentious. Try and enjoy your miserable life, and let go of that festering hate some day.

[–]MaestroLogical 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

After another 17 years of you feeling this way, exemplifying this attitude and doing everything in your power to be 'that' kind of man...

You'll wake up and be the same kind of 'sexist' that you see in this place. It's not sexism, it's realism, you are still to conditioned to see it is all. It's not your fault, we all were at one point.

Stop projecting sexism and misogyny onto valid complaints about women. Just because someone has something negative to say about a girl doesn't mean they automatically 'Hate' women.

Opinions are multi-faceted things, you can believe women routinely act a certain way, call them out on the absurdity of it, and still actually Love them... Seeing every criticism of women as a 'circle-jerk of bashing' is your conditioning talking. It wears off eventually.

[–]DualVoidTrident 4 points5 points6 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

If we use proof in rape cases, we fall into the patterns of rape deniers.

Of course Emma Sulkowicz would say something like that; she knows her entire narrative is without basis and would fall apart if put under scrutiny. We can't have that, specially with how she is seen as a feminist icon and prime example of rape culture.

I really hope the guy she falsely accused sues her ass and she finally gets her long overdue comeuppance.

[–]TheMouseRan 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

That would be fantastic. There have to be some easily calculable damages involved with a bogus accusation.

The worst part about this false accusation bullshit : it undermines the legitimacy of actual rape accusations. Woman's disgusting, she's actually damaging poignancy and importance of real victims.

[–]youhatetruth 6 points7 points8 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

"Who needs facts and logic to imprison men for crimes when we have women's FEELS!?" - Tone deaf, sexist cunt

[–]TheMouseRan 4 points5 points6 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Proving rape seems like a very difficult thing. I wonder what kind of solution we could find to deal with that issue.

[–]OklaJosha 2 points3 points4 points 10 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

Yeah, but luckily there are some legal precedents for this type of thing. In Child Protection cases, a DHS worker only needs Some Credible Evidence to get a child out of a potentially dangerous home. This is mainly because the child can receive backlash after a report, & is about keeping them safe. If the charge is erroneous, the parent has a legal recourse to go to trial.

It seems they want that standard for a conviction in rape cases, which I haven't heard of. Usually for criminal cases, you need the Beyond Reasonable Doubt standard (I'm not sure if that is what's applied to rape charges). This does seem like a very high standard for something that would be very hard to prove and is obviously very serious. Perhaps a Preponderance of Evidence standard would be better, basically more likely to have happen than not.

Edit: according to this, it is Beyond Reasonable Doubt for a rape charge. So even Clear & Convincing Evidence (substantially more probable to be true than not) would be a lower standard of proof than current. http://rape.uslegal.com/trial/

[–]jasonmiles2014 7 points8 points9 points 10 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

Emma Sulkowicz needs to be punched.

[–]not_AtWorkRightNow 10 points11 points12 points 10 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

You literally just raped Emma Sulkowicz according to the legal precedents they are attempting to set.

[–]jasonmiles2014 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Lol!

[–]not_AtWorkRightNow 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

That was exclamatory. I feel triggered. You have literally raped me. Oh wait, I'm a man so it doesn't count.

[–]SCROTAL-SACK 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

"rape" is my trigger word. I've reported you and I'm on the floor in the fetal position on the phone to the police.

[–]SCROTAL-SACK -1 points0 points1 point 10 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

With her face you'd probably be doing her a favor.

[–]kragshot 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Let's not fall into that trap, guys.

If Sulkowicz was someone else who was not batshit crazy and she offered to break you off, you'd hit it. I read the same shit about Sarkeesian and it's bullshit. Ol' Anita is quite fuckable if you separate her looks from her social politics and lack of scruples.

The only one of that lot I wouldn't fuck is Brianna Wu and that is because she genuinely is unattractive just like Kaitlyn Jenner...got nothing to do with her being "trans." Just as there are generally ugly women, there are generally ugly transwomen. There are plenty of Thai Ladyboys who easily put Wu to shame if you are feeling that way.

Sulkowicz is a good 5.5 - 6 and Sarkeesian can get to 6.5 - 7 because she does clean up nicely. Let's just stick with attacking their ethics and politics...it will work out better in the long run.

[–]SCROTAL-SACK 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Trap? You mean to tell me other people have different standards? Don't tell me who i find attractive. Sulkowicz is a dog.

[–]kragshot 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Okay...perhaps I went a bit overboard in making my point.

However, the idea is that we don't need to attack these people personally to illustrate that they are bad people.

Just saying....

[–]OmegaParticle 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Any man accused of rape should be sent to the ministry of love without trial.

[–]kragshot 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Because remember...Emma Sulkowicz allegedly raped and murdered a 16 year old boy in 1990....

[–]dingoperson2 -1 points0 points1 point 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Ah, obscurantism at its finest. "Fall into the pattern of rape deniers"

Suitable response: "But if we don't, we adopt the theory of oppression!"

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