Why is the MRM so unpopular within LGBT communities?

Imnotmrabut · 2015-10-07T20:10:52+00:00

I'm afraid that you seem to be addicted to a meme and not dealing in reality.

I know whole swaths of the GAY community that have been advocating against gynocentric bias for decades.

Have a read of some early criticism of Feminism and how men's rights were and remain different - Dangerous Trends in Feminism - John Lauritsen, 1976.

The early homosexual rights movement and the women's emancipation movement were both part of a broader sexual reform movement in the first three decades of the 20th century; they were regarded as comrade struggles. This was also true in the gay liberation phase of our movement, from the fall of 1969 onwards. I believe this is correct, and that every progressive person should endorse the basic goals of both movements — though to be sure, neither movement is a systematic body of doctrine, and both movements have internal disagreements.

Unfortunately, some very serious problems have arisen. Self-proclaimed feminists have acted in ways that were harmful to both gay liberation and women's liberation, and reactionary ideas have been advanced under the banner of feminism. I do not say these things were characteristic of the women's movement as a whole; rather, they can be attributed to a small, but highly publicized, minority.

**..there is a particular ideology which justifies the privileged status that feminists enjoy within the Gay Academic Union and other gay groups.

According to this ideology, the most basic division in society is not between class and class, but between male and female; distinctions according to gender are seen as far more important than distinctions based on wealth and power. According to this ideology, there is a hierarchy of oppression, with the oppression of women being the worst of all. It is an oppression so profound, so mysterious, and so ineffable, that it cannot even be described in concrete terms, as might other, lesser forms of oppression.

According to this ideology the oppression of homosexuals derives from “sexism”, the foundation of which is male supremacy. Homosexuals are oppressed because they, not being seen as “real men and women”, violate the “sex-roles” which sexism comprises. It follows that the oppression of male homosexuals is essentially a by-product of female oppression, and that the liberation of gay men must tail after the liberation of women. In effect, the gay liberation movement becomes the fag end of the women's movement.

According to this ideology, lesbians are doubly oppressed — both as homosexuals and as women — where homosexual males are merely singly oppressed. Gay men still enjoy a “male privilege” because, according to a central dictum of radical feminism: ALL MEN BENEFIT FROM THE OPPRESSION OF ALL WOMEN. So it would seem that gay men are not really so badly off, and perhaps it would be better if they did not devote their energies to repealing sodomy statutes and fighting discrimination, because these goals if realized would simply give them equality with straight men, thus objectively increasing the oppression of women. Instead, gay men should spend their time “dealing with their sexism”, which they acquired from having been born male, and in learning how to “give up their male privilege”.

According to this ideology, the best things gay men can do is to act as a “men's auxiliary” for women's liberation, taking their cues from feminists. And since men are the enemy, gay men should be willing to enlist as agents in the fight against males and against maleness.

wisty · 2015-10-07T20:44:01+00:00

What's the "LGBT community"?

There's LGBT men's rights people. They may or may not agree on every point, but they care about some of the issues.

Then there's things like the rainbow / lgbt subreddit split. (lgbt is soc-jus, rainbow is basically everyone).

If you mean diversity officers an uni, and the uni diversity club ... I'd say that's mostly because MRA tends to be something people find a bit later in life. It's not yet part of the establishment (unlike, say, feminism and anarchism).

I'd say the LGBT people facing actual problems don't see how an alliance with MRAs is helpful (since MRAs draw way too much criticism). The LGBT people who want to help out the MRM tend not to make a huge deal out of it. Feminists who co-opt LGBT issues ... that case is pretty obvious.

rg57 · 2015-10-07T21:52:43+00:00

I don't think it's anything that MRM have done wrong. While the Sterling Heights Men's Conference was cringe-worthy, all other forums have been very welcoming to gay men, and transpeople.

Rather, organized "LGBT" groups have allied with feminists to gain political power (since it wasn't coming any other way). The combination of feminist damseling, combined with strict moral codes (e.g. marriage) have no doubt been a winner in the West, even though it comes at the costly expense of what used to be a liberty movement.

So you'll find LGBT people (particularly young ones who don't know their history) allied with their opponents because in the short term, it has appeared to be a net gain.

However, the queer movement is a natural ally of MRM, because it shares the common anti-feminist values of:

evidence-based decisions, not dogma
individual liberty, to decide how to respond to our biology
equality of opportunity, under equal laws, no carve-outs or quotas
recognition of our common humanity

The opponents of queer people most often target us for reasons that are obvious for their misandry. We're promiscuous (and that's bad). We're diseased (and deserve it). We're a walking rape threat (and a threat to children). We "recruit" (not that there's anything wrong with that). We're hedonists (and don't understand life). We don't understand women (and don't do enough for them). We're disgusting and gross (just like a natural penis).

Lesbians and transmen are targeted for appearing or acting like men. Transwomen are targeted for "being" men while appearing to be women.

At this moment, a lot of gay people (despite not even having basic protections like black people gained in the 1964 Civil Rights Act) see themselves at a sort of pinnacle, and don't want to tarnish it by associating with another unpopular minority, even if they are members of it.

But as the origins of homophobia are rooted in misandry, it is a fatal error to ignore this cause.

DavidByron2 · 2015-10-07T21:20:54+00:00

Because such communities are overrun with the cancer of feminism.

Leinadro · 2015-10-07T18:46:17+00:00

I think its mostly because the mrm holds lgbt at arms length.

When a lgbt question comes up here what i usually see answers along the lines of saying that its wrong to discriminate but that lgbt issues arent mens issues.

Kind of a cold indifference.

Also notice that mrm critics dont accuse the mrm of anti lgbt sentiment but rather that the mrm doesnt make an active show of support for lgbt folks.

MRM critics try to spin this indifference into hate.

aoki-lapis · 2015-10-07T18:37:39+00:00

Kind of hard to argue you need divorce court rights and so forth to a gay man.

ThePigmanAgain · 2015-10-07T21:26:53+00:00

Have you any evidence for your assertion?

elwahrio · 2015-10-07T22:09:14+00:00

I was under the impression gay and bi men were OVERREPRESENTED in the MRM? Didn't they do surveys of various men's groups, including r/mensrights and find 20% identified as gay and something like 40% were a "Kinsey non-zero"? That's way more than in the general population. Does anyone have the link to any of those surveys?

TheDude41 · 2015-10-07T22:32:20+00:00

Because chivalry is shit.

Funcuz · 2015-10-08T01:00:36+00:00

It is ? Not in my experience but I'm only speaking anecdotally so I can't be sure.

AutoModerator · 2015-10-08T04:44:49+00:00

[permanently deleted]

Spartanza · 2015-10-08T02:26:22+00:00

If you mean on reddit / college campuses, it's because at least from what I've seen is that the feminist movement has entrenched themselves within the LGBT community, making them seem one in the same by members who are of both groups being the most vocal when it comes to issues or discussions.

NWOslave · 2015-10-08T02:57:22+00:00

Ahhh, rules for radicals the Saul Alinsky big tent approach. If anyone has ever read rules for radicals the best course of action to accomplish a political agenda is encompass as much as possible as part of your mission to give it legitimacy. So if I claim to be an otherkin demanding acceptance, I'll try to incorporate green tech and global warming since I'm very eco-friendly, and trans because I to am trapped in a foreign body, and gays because no one accepts us the way we are and we were born that way, and of course the main tenets of the faithful, equality and tolerance. Amen.

FiveMagicBeans · 2015-10-07T20:34:50+00:00

Because the most militant portions of the LGBT movement are the lesbians, who not only hold feminism in high regard, but also already consider "men are disposable" to be a valid viewpoint.

While sometimes equally opinionated, gay men aren't nearly as vocal within the LGBT movement, and also don't suffer many of the stigmas that the MRM struggles against.

soulless_ging · 2015-10-07T19:41:44+00:00

Probably because feminists have generally embraced the LGBT community and supported legislation to make firing someone for their sexual orientation illegal, making gay bashing a hate crime, supporting gay marriage, right to raise children, etc., and MRM spends a fair amount of its time saying feminism is ruining the country.

What's more, MRM generally seems to think that the feminist narrative of "toxic masculinity" and needing to "dissolve gender roles" is bullshit. But I'm guessing a lot of gay men identify with the idea that needing to live up to certain standards of what "being a man" is truly has affected their lives in a negative way.

EDIT: Also, this group blames a lot of men's issues on the idea that women have always been the privileged sex. It wouldn't be surprising if gay men don't identify with this narrative.

TL;DR: Feminists support LGBT, and MRM bashes feminism.

Clockw0rk · 2015-10-07T20:47:12+00:00

IMO, Feminism has co-opted most LGBT communities.

MRM is pretty compatible with Egalitarianism.. and unfortunately, Feminism is not.

Particularly, Feminism and (arguably) most LGBT communities seem very hung up on the idea that their "struggle" defines them. All of these 'strong, independent women' keep identifying themselves as part of a group and oppressed (kind of flies in the face of strong and independent, no?); and a depressing amount of LGBT groups tend to lean the same way.

MRM does not let their struggle define them. We are men, yes, but more importantly we are people. And when it comes to things like parental rights, criminal sentencing, circumcision, etc; we expect to be treated with the same respect and decency of other people.

qemist · 2015-10-07T22:39:07+00:00

You know those letters stand for different things? different groups with different interests. There are plenty of gays in the MRM. Why, for example, would you expect lesbians to be interested in men's rights? Lesbians attitude to men are overwhelmingly in the range disinterest to disgust.

Devilsgun · 2015-10-07T18:45:38+00:00

The movement is stuck in Super Lefty Mode, which is the Bitch Mother of Feminism

Title	Why is the MRM so unpopular within LGBT communities?
Author	aoki-lapis
Upvotes	25
Comments	91
Date	October 7, 2015 6:22 PM UTC (10 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/3nvc8n/why_is_the_mrm_so_unpopular_within_lgbt/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/why-is-the-mrm-so-unpopular-within-lgbt.969861 https://theredarchive.com/post/969861

Comments