[xpost from /r/CMV] -- If Women have the right to be Pro-Choice then Men deserve the right to decline fatherhood.

boris_100 · 2015-05-28T03:19:03+00:00

What really gets me, is that women are legally allowed to decline motherhood before and AFTER birth by dropping babies off at "safe havens". If children are entitled to the resources of their parents, then why aren't women required to pay child support for children they abandon at these places?

Targren · 2015-05-28T02:04:18+00:00

I was actually participating in that one for awhile. I swear, the only ones more obnoxious than the smug little shitheads endlessly meeping that consenting to sex == consenting to parenthood (but only for the father!) are the assholes going after the "forced abortion" strawman for entire subthreads.

TechnoSam_Belpois · 2015-05-28T04:31:43+00:00

Every single person I have ever had this debate with immediately assumed that I was arguing that a man could force a woman to have an abortion, even in the cases where I explicitly stated that I was only talking about finances.

I'm not generalizing, I have never discussed this topic with anyone outside of this sub without that assumption being made. It was corrected of course, but I'm quite puzzled by how frequently people jump to this.

rg57 · 2015-05-28T03:56:54+00:00

[permanently deleted]

bakedpotato486 · 2015-05-28T04:59:27+00:00

I haven't read all the comments, but I'm willing to bet they don't touch the reverse situation: the man wants to be the father, but can't keep the woman from getting an abortion.

Celda · 2015-05-28T05:36:58+00:00

People bring up all kinds of BS objections against financial abortion. They are not truly thinking through them. They just oppose the concept on an emotional / bigoted basis, and then think of objections that are easily knocked down if you examine them.

For example, people bring up trite arguments like "what if a father agrees to raise a child then changes his mind", or "what if a father decides to enact financial abortion and then later wants to be the father".

They do not bring up these objections because they have actually thought about it - if they had, they would realize these objections have already been asked, and answered, decades ago in other fields of law (adoption and family).

They just bring them up because they oppose the concept, then think of objections against it.

shinarit · 2015-05-28T08:32:30+00:00

EDIT3: This has sparked a really nice and balanced discussion, so thank you CMV. It's a controversial topic because while Men should have the same rights as Women, the rights of the child seem to take over that of the father, but not the mother. I think /u/Billy90 put forward the best argument against this.

I read for a while, and I don't see the balanced discussion. It's full of bullshit arguments and strawmen.

Erociter · 2015-05-28T07:48:34+00:00

Declining fatherhood will only happen when women want it to happen. Until then, whenever a man and woman's rights happen to have different requirements, men will usually lose out.

I can't think of a situation not considered to be negative where women are expected to sacrifice rights for men's comfort, whether it's because of biology or other reasons. Let alone something as massive as reproductive rights.

Feminists will not permit men's full reproductive rights unless there is no impact at all to women. If men are needed for the slightest thing: money, genetic material...etc, feminists will fight tooth and nail to keep women on top.

And right now it is still a benefit for women to continue having complete power in the reproductive relationship so it doesn't matter what the arguments are, they just won't ever accept it.

Some kind of successful way to turn sperm production on and off when it's needed for men is an idea. Something like a male birth control pill or a shot would be a good way to start fighting for men's reproductive rights.

At least men could avoid conceiving until they wanted. And they could avoid it under their terms. No error prone and clunky condoms would be needed either.

Or the condoms could still be used as an extra safeguard.

Even if women would still control everything after that point, like they do now, it would give men a little more control over their own reproductive rights.

Ultramegasaurus · 2015-05-28T06:10:09+00:00

When women make the decision to abort, the only person who stands to suffer is the woman who had the abortion.

Yeah, right. If a mother kills the child a father wants, he totally does not suffer at all. /s

Why are people so obsessed about the body aspect of abortion? A medically correct abortion is no heart transplantation. The same people who treat it as such are the ones who'd say that "male circumcision is no big deal". Double standards much?

The primary reasons for and against an abortion should be how able and willing both parents are to raise a child for 18 years. Yet this whole debates revolves around the 9 months of pregnancy.

baserace · 2015-05-28T07:51:33+00:00

Abortion is not the right for the mother to choose not to have a child (though that is a consequence). Abortion is the right to have a say what happens to your body.

Good fucking lord, the insane narrow view. And no mention of the father, of course.

HighResolutionSleep · 2015-05-28T05:45:30+00:00

This is honestly the one issue I can't read or argue about without getting upset or otherwise emotionally elevated. The justifications for the system as it stands are some of the most infuriating apolegetics I've heard for anything.

My personal favorite is the one that states that a man's exercise of personal autonomy would be illegitimate, coercive- or in the most outrageous phrasings- tantamount to a crime. As soon as we start talking about consequences proportional to power, women's agency flies out the window. Suddenly her beliefs about abortion are things that just happen to her and that men must share the burden of. Suddenly her wants in life are needs that must be respected at any cost. Suddenly her failure to control her own fertility becomes a joint failure between the two of them.

This is just symptomatic of a very simple natural law. Whenever there is a competition between men and women's interests crossed specifically down gender lines, and no simple or equal solution exists between them, men will be expected to bite the bullet 100% of the time. I dare anyone to come up with a single counter-example.

Men having no reproductive rights to speak of is a small price to pay in order to ensure that women won't be burned too hotly by consequences of decisions they were uniquely empowered to make.

LPS will come about as soon as it won't cost women anything. It will be given to men when women no longer need them. When women have unrestricted and well-supplied access to artificial means of fertilization, as well as-- most importantly-- a society subsidized method by which to raise those children on their own that no longer needs individual men to be sustainable, men will receive reproductive freedoms. It will be viewed as a mercy and a gift given to men who would otherwise need to be corralled into their sexed responsibility to women and to society. However, men should be thankful that such duties have become obsolete, and that government has the grace to share the benefit of its obsolescence. It is not at all unlikely that feminists will cite such advancement as proof undeniable that they are the true champions of men's rights. The entire age of women's complete dominance of reproductive choices will become a footnote as soon as it hits the history books, most likely stamped with said feminist accreditation.

_Eggs_ · 2015-05-28T12:39:03+00:00

As a pro-life supporter this only worsens the problem (so I wouldn't support it), but I can see the double standards in the pro-choice side whereas they think women should be able to have that choice but men shouldn't.

But yeah, I'd be against this too... because for me it's not a matter of choice. Feminists claim that we just want to deny women their choices, but the fact that I'm against this too proves that isn't the case. I just don't think it is a choice.

2015-05-28T17:42:14+00:00

I was just speaking with a friend about this. The injustice/systemic sexism on this issue is absolutely over the top.

Always6996 · 2015-05-28T20:45:06+00:00

Wrote a paper on this for one of my classes

Always6996 · 2015-05-29T02:38:01+00:00

Np hard to read on here I know but it's all there

ThreeStarUniform · 2015-05-28T14:45:19+00:00

People have the wrong idea when they debate this issue. Of course a man should have the right to decline fatherhood and the requirement to support the child if the woman can choose to terminate or carry the pregnancy to term. But it's not a matter of whether or not that is true, it's a cold hard reality in the form of the funds required to raise the abdicated child then coming out of the government's coffers.

IE - the state doesn't want to pay for it by raising taxes, so men will never be allowed to abdicate financial responsibility. And if I'm completely honest with myself, from the perspective of what's best for me, I'm fine with that. Because I'd rather not pay higher taxes to cover dads who wished to decline fatherhood.

Title	[xpost from /r/CMV] -- If Women have the right to be Pro-Choice then Men deserve the right to decline fatherhood.
Author	bearCatBird
Upvotes	65
Comments	34
Date	May 28, 2015 1:43 AM UTC (11 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/37jf8p/xpost_from_rcmv_if_women_have_the_right_to_be/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/xpost-from-rcmv-if-women-have-the-right-to-be-pro.979142 https://theredarchive.com/post/979142

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