If men can't have a say on when to become fathers, should we still support abortion rights for women?

tiqr · 2015-05-14T14:38:38+00:00

The solution to blacks and women "not having the right to vote" was to "give them the right to vote" - not to prohibit whites and men from voting.

Your idea is entirely backwards. You're aiming for equality by dragging down a class of people instead of elevating one.

Edit: And further to your suggestion that maybe men should "withdraw their support for abortions" to draw attention to their own issues; you are essentially advocating threatening women's reproductive rights as a bargaining chip. I'm going to go on a limb and suggest that people would not respond positively to a tactic like that.

IcarusBurning · 2015-05-14T15:33:47+00:00

No, this is entirely backwards. It's like you're suggesting we hold our support for an issue hostage until we get what we want. You should not be deciding your opinion on an issue based on someone else's opinion on another issue. That's just absurd.

I support abortion rights for women, and there is no amount of discrimination against men that will change that.

2015-05-14T18:24:38+00:00

I think the only way out of this would be if men who were forced into it by malicious means - through rape or coercion - and who really shouldn't be victimized twice committed suicide en masse and publicly announced why. That's what it would take and since it is and since it won't happen there's not going to be a change.

And that's not because anyone would feel bad for these men(nobody cares about wronged men), but because it would hurt the economy as neither prisons nor women could capitalize on them.

So this needs to be said out loud:

If you're raped and coerced by a woman and she manages to conceive you're going to be paying her child support. And nobody will care. That's the reality we live in today my fellow men.

That's not something we should accept. That's not a world I want to live in.

The idea that you can use abortion as a bargaining chip is ludicrous. It won't make anyone care more about men. Furthermore you won't ever manage to ban abortion to use it as such because women have spoken on the issue and society cares about women and women's wishes. It only cares about men's utility and men can only cease to be useful somehow by being dead. As such there won't be any resolution here.

chavelah · 2015-05-14T20:13:03+00:00

There's a big difference between "I'm going to focus my resources on own group's problems" and "I'm going to focus my resources on creating problems for some other group of people."

I don't expect all pro-choice people to be pro-choice activists. I just want them to consider a candidate's stance on the issue when they vote. Everybody is allowed to choose their area of activism, and society benefits from a diversity of activist focus. But devoting one's finite resources to antichoice activism, IMO, would be both unethical and counterproductive.

TFCNU · 2015-05-14T14:06:31+00:00

Abortion isn't an issue that can be changed legislatively in many countries where it is legal. In both the US and Canada the current abortion laws are from the Supreme Court determining the law that prohibited abortion was unconstitutional. It would require a constitutional amendment to change the law.

horus-ra · 2015-05-14T17:08:55+00:00

Honestly I think this is one area where the differences between men and women are so different that "equality" in reproductive rights is not possible. That's not to say that there currently are no issues with reproductive rights but it feels like reproductive rights will almost always rest with one person out of the threesome, man, woman, child.

Women need ways in which they can better control when they reproduce, these can be accomplished through abstinence (yeah right), birth control, and abortion. I'll probably get flak for saying this, but pregnancy is basically a temporary disability to varying degrees. A pregnant women can be a drain on society, a single mother having a child before she is financially and emotionally ready can be even bigger drain on society. Biologically women do not really need a male to be around for very long in order to reproduce. They are however biologically required to invest far more energy into reproducing.

On the other side, a man absolutely requires a woman to be around for a long time in order to reproduce but is not biologically required to expend vast amounts of time and energy. Currently the only real control that men have if they don't want to reproduce is abstinence. They have nearly 0 control if they want to have a child.

In reality women need men and men need women in order to successfully reproduce. They both invest time and energy into their offspring and they both get a say in shaping that offspring. Right now society demands that the man must invest his time and energy into a child that the mother decides to have. All of the negative aspects of reproduction, time and energy investment, are shared between the mother and father, but the power of choice belongs solely to the mother. This comes about because it's very very difficult to raise a child as a single parent. Because a single parent is not well suited to support a child, the rest of society gets cuckolded into supporting some guys offspring.

Really we need to be advocating for abortion, and for "financial abortion". Allow men to pay the cost of an abortion and wipe their hands of the whole affair. If women know that they don't have a source of supplemental income it's likely that many pregnancies would be terminated very early on.

Something that goes along with this would be to require every male entering public high school to receive vasalgel. They can have it removed for a cost at 18 or it will just go away around the time they turn 24.

MRSPArchiver · 2015-05-14T13:50:32+00:00

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stoawayaccount · 2015-05-14T17:48:42+00:00

Maybe instead of withholding support we could start a new movement, a sort of financial abortion option for fathers. You wouldn't have any rights to the kids, the kid wouldn't know anything about you, and you legally wouldn't be responsible for the kid.

andejoh · 2015-05-14T17:59:34+00:00

I'm currently an abortion rights supporter as I lean toward bodily autonomy rights without a compelling reason against them. I'm not sure that no abortion rights is fairer than just abortion rights for women. I think you can argue that though by saying that men do not have the right to block an abortion. I don't think people realize that men are discriminated against on BOTH sides of the issue so even giving men abortion rights does nothing for a man who wants his child.

rg57 · 2015-05-15T20:27:44+00:00

Abortion is for men too. Some man is going to end up paying for that kid, particularly if it has severe health issues.

No, do not shoot yourself in the left foot, just because someone else has shot you in the right foot.

Outdoor-Joe · 2015-05-16T07:17:33+00:00

Simple, stop caring about it. Don't work against it, just stop paying attention to the issue. Focus on items like VasalGel. Focus on getting that cleared and cheap as possible. Get funding for poor males to have access to it.

You can attack the issue of unwanted pregnancy in a couple of ways. The best way for men is to focus on helping men prevent pregnancy before it happens. I'm pro-choice in the same sense, but with women unwilling to care about their partner's wishes I'd rather focus on giving men more say before it happens.

Currently the only three methods a man has are: 1) Abstinence, 2) Condoms, or 3) Vasectomy (sterilization)

Since men and women in relationships don't like condoms, let's give men another option to control fertility. It will help avoid unwanted pregnancy, reducing the need for abortion while simultaneously giving men more control over when they have children.

Art0fLife · 2015-05-18T19:42:45+00:00

I think women should have the right to abort a pregnancy if they choose. But I also think men should have rights as well. Naturally, we shouldn't have the ability to tell a woman to get an abortion if she wants the child. But on the other hand, men should have a legal out if the woman insists on having the child and he doesn't want any part of it. I have a real problem with the fact that a woman can decide alone if the child will be born or not, and the man has no choice on at least being financially involved if she elects a choice he disagrees with.

Targren · 2015-05-14T13:59:55+00:00

Because if all the idiot breeders in the world couldn't get abortions then the world would be significantly more fucked than it is now.

Targren · 2015-05-14T14:02:24+00:00

I've been chewing on similar thoughts myself lately, and pretty much for the exact same reasons. I haven't come up with a good answer, though.

On the one hand, I'm with you in that it's basically self-defeating to support rights for women they wish to continue to refuse us.

On the other hand, I actually do think women and men should both have the right to make that choice, and it feels counterproductive to stop supporting what progress has been made, out of spite.

On the gripping hand, is it really "just out of spite" when it's pretty much one of the only two cards we get (the other being going MGTOW) in the game.

I'm interested in seeing how the discussion goes.

eyenot · 2015-05-14T16:31:13+00:00

I see your point, but you're approaching this with the assumption that abortion is something that benefits women and only women. Think about how many men would be fathers today, against their wishes, if the women they impregnated weren't able to get abortions.

There should be an app to track how much child support abortion has saved men from...

guywithaccount · 2015-05-14T15:21:58+00:00

I completely agree. Both sexes should have reproductive freedom, but as long as men's reproductive rights are nonexistent and the idea is treated with contempt and confusion, men should oppose reproductive rights for women.

jamminnummeruno · 2015-05-14T14:35:10+00:00

Yes, abortion rights for women are abortion rights for men.

Targren · 2015-05-14T14:40:02+00:00

The question I have is, why would we support abortion rights for women when they refuse to grant same rights to us men?

Because everyone should have reproductive autonomy - just because we're only halfway there doesn't mean we should take a step backwards.

Would feminists think twice about men's rights when men on mass withdraw their abortion support?

Probably not, they'd see it as validation of the patriarchy.

There is something that I've wondered would work, a Lysistrata style sex strike. Sorry, ladies, I don't have a choice about parenthood, so the only thing I can do to protect myself is to only have anal sex, as apparently even oral sex isn't safe anymore

I wonder how quickly the butthurt (sorry) would resolve that issue.

notnotnotfred · 2015-05-14T18:44:58+00:00

Your parallel goes too far. We are not black slaves.

also, there are some (maybe only a few) of us who refuse to support abortion at all.

2015-05-14T19:27:49+00:00

I suggested that years ago ... I think its a useful rhetorical position in order to get reproductive rights for men.

andejoh · 2015-05-14T17:58:58+00:00

I've thought about that and I'm not sure. Here are some of the things I've considered.

Why do women have the right to abortion? The right to bodily autonomy (which I'll add baby boy's do not currently have). How much of a right to bodily autonomy should they have? Currently we have a draft (no bodily autonomy for men) and couldn't abortion rights for men fall under bodily autonomy also? Why should his labor be used to benefit another against his will?
When does being a human start? If we disregard potential which is basically the argument abortion rights activists use and we use the standard that they are completely dependent on another again an argument put forth by abortion rights supports, then why would a baby who is still completely dependent on another be considered human? Why would a person in a coma be considered human? We use the persistent vegetative state (ie no potential) as the legal standard for euthanasia.
If people had absolute autonomy over their bodies, why would children need parental consent to play sports or should we though consistency require parental consent for minors to receive abortions? Why is suicide banned, drug use, prostitution, etc?

There are limits placed on this idea of bodily autonomy. In theory, human life begins at conception unless people can be defined as human and not during different stages of their lives based on their ability to reason (which could be temporarily reduced by drug use, being in a coma, etc.) or their ability to care for themselves. People could lose their humanity after they hit 80.

Title	If men can't have a say on when to become fathers, should we still support abortion rights for women?
Author	melniav0
Upvotes	11
Comments	41
Date	May 14, 2015 1:50 PM UTC (11 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/35y1ro/if_men_cant_have_a_say_on_when_to_become_fathers/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/if-men-cant-have-a-say-on-when-to-become-fathers.980293 https://theredarchive.com/post/980293

Comments

If you're raped and coerced by a woman and she manages to conceive you're going to be paying her child support. And nobody will care. That's the reality we live in today my fellow men.