Dear 'Feminists', | MensRights

[–]BlindPelican 22 points23 points24 points 12 years ago (19 children) | Copy Link

[–]scotsworth 11 points12 points13 points 12 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

[–]BlindPelican 4 points5 points6 points 12 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

[–]scotsworth 3 points4 points5 points 12 years ago* (5 children) | Copy Link

It's definitely a fair point you raise, and I think they went a bit heavy handed with saying things like a weak man is "like a woman"

That said, childhood insults like "you throw like a girl" are still very prevalent in various forms, so it's worth considering them. Many of the insults that exist (bitch, pussy, etc) are terms referencing the feminine. The question, I think, is why do we use femininity as an insult for males at all?

I tend to think it's not so much a "we hate women, so we call weak men pussies" thing (like the slides seem to imply)…I think it's a "we have defined masculinity in this rigid way, so it's exact opposite is femininity (which we've also defined rather rigidly)…and that's not a good thing for a man so we will apply feminine insults"

Does that make any sense?

[–]BlindPelican 5 points6 points7 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

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[–]unicorncuddles 3 points4 points5 points 12 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

I don't see this as making sexism toward men be an affront to women; I see it more as pointing out that men and women are both hurt by sexism. Men are insulted for being like women, are insulted using female-related words, and are looked down upon for being anything but what society deems masculine. It's a horrible thing, and it is both bad for men and women. I don't want men to suffer for not fitting their sex's stereotype, and I don't want being called a woman to be a demeaning thing. The same goes if you switch it. I don't want women to be looked down on for being masculine, and I don't want being called a man, or having masculine traits be a negative thing.

IMO the most important point in the comic is that the fight against sexism should not be an "us vs them" mentality. There shouldn't be one-upping, there shouldn't be a "well, we have it worse" fight. Sexism is shitty all around.

[–]BlindPelican 3 points4 points5 points 12 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

I guess it's a matter of perspective, unicorncuddles. I think the intent of the cartoon was commendable - let's take a more empathetic look at men's experiences and recognize their hardships too. I'll ascribe that to the author as a matter of good faith.

However, the same point could have been made without using "girly" or "woman" and using "not manly" and "not a man". In fact, it would be more accurate.

A man who has been subjected to that doesn't view it as "oh my gosh, I'm a woman!".

He views it as "I am nothing. A non-person". That's the experience of a man who hears these things.

There's no reflection on the opposite gender here, despite the gendered terms being used. Calling a man nurturing, compassionate, social, stylish, even beautiful, are also gendered terms that are far from insulting (in not, in fact, complimentary).

We are in agreement here on the rest of your post, though - "us vs them" is indeed a bad mentality to have. My point is simply that, in a rather nuanced fashion, from my perspective the cartoon actually promotes that idea.

[–]unicorncuddles 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

However, the same point could have been made without using "girly" or "woman" and using "not manly" and "not a man". In fact, it would be more accurate.

You're correct, the point that men suffer from sexism could be made without being specific about the insults thrown at them. That wouldn't address the issue of the nature of these insults, however. And the nature of these insults is very key to the problem of sexism as a whole.

I think the goal of this comic is something more complex than just pointing out the sexism men face. It's pointing out a specific part of sexism (name calling and insults) that has a profound effect on both sexes. The damage sexism causes is intertwined; it's neither only done to women, nor only done to men. Thus, we shouldn't address women's issues without also addressing how the same things hurt men, and vice versa.

A man who has been subjected to that doesn't view it as "oh my gosh, I'm a woman!".

Absolutely. However, like I said above, this comic is not only focusing on men. We choose our insults based on what we find to be offensive. It is offensive to call a man a woman--because women are weak, fragile--and it's offensive to call a woman a man--because men are brutish, dangerous. If you notice, many of our insults are slang terms for our private parts, this is because it is also insulting to be called some sort of word for our genitalia, which is another matter entirely, but no less damaging.

Calling a man nurturing, compassionate, social, stylish, even beautiful, are also gendered terms that are far from insulting (in not, in fact, complimentary).

What I mean by gendered terms are: pussy, "don't be such a girl," "you hit/run/play like a girl," etc. These are all negative things. There are other choice insults that are used that I don't agree with, like dick, prick, asshole, cunt.

Social, compassionate, stylish, etc, while terms some may associate with women, are not inherently gendered. It isn't the same thing. Being called nurturing is not the same as being called a pussy. Likewise, being called assertive (in the context of a woman), is not the same as being told "you act like a man".

My point is simply that, in a rather nuanced fashion, from my perspective the cartoon actually promotes that idea.

I don't believe the comic promotes an "us vs them" mentality at all, it's pointing out a very real issue for both sexes. How you and I choose to perceive that information, and what prior knowledge of the topic and experiences we bring to the table, are where our differences lie. I perceive it as a example of how sexism is causing harm to both men and women because it includes a man being insulted for acting how he chooses to and the female-centric insults that are used to attack him; you perceive it as promoting a combative attitude because it chooses to include feminine terminology alongside an issue that men face (that is how I understand your position from your post, please correct me if I'm wrong.)

EDIT: Oh, boy. I apologize that this is so long. I'd understand if you skimmed, it's definitely an eyeful.

[–]BlindPelican 2 points3 points4 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

No worries on the length. It was a very cogent and well-put read. :)

Rather than turn this into a discussion of the semantics, I suppose I will just address this point:

I perceive it as a example of how sexism is causing harm to both men and women because it includes a man being insulted for acting how he chooses to and the female-centric insults that are used to attack him; you perceive it as promoting a combative attitude because it chooses to include feminine terminology alongside an issue that men face

I understand your position a bit better with that, thanks. And I suppose you do have a point as it pertains to sexism in general - there are definitely slurs that strike straight to one's gender identity, man or woman. And there are others that police gender norms, and still others that are just unpleasant and rude pejorative terms.

As for my position, you're quite close. My objection isn't so much that feminine terminology is used alongside a male issue, but rather that this is a rather subtle re-work of an ubiquitous idea: sexism against men is really sexism against women. An idea that comes up with some regularity and undermines the fact that men's experiences are unique to men and don't need to always be put in comparison to women or women's experiences.

[–]SchalaZeal01 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago* (4 children) | Copy Link

[–]unicorncuddles 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

It did skip that point, yes, but I don't think it's making the assumption that women don't get insulted with manly insults. It just chose to focus on this specific aspect in which men are attacked using feminine words. I don't think it's entirely fair to assume that because something is not included, that it is not included out of malice or ignorance. Is there other work that this person has done that illustrates that they believe that only men get insulted with womanly insults? Or that women don't get insulted with manly insults? I'd be interested to know. It's possible that they feel that way, but we can't just jump to that conclusion without further information.

Both cases are simply due to society looking down upon both men and women for going outside their expected gender roles. In other words, it hurts both genders, not just women.

This bit from the link you added (thank you for that, by the way), I agree with completely. It's exactly what I was saying in my comments. It's horrible. I, however, don't agree with this:

This is just another example of how feminists will use whatever explanation possible to make the women the victims, even if those explanations contradict themselves.

This is definitely the "us vs them" mentality that the comic is talking about. This sort of thought is toxic; it pits men against women, and women against men. I consider myself to be a feminist, and aside from that point I agreed with, the link is actually quite offensive to me. It says that, as a feminist, I operate in a way that is not at all how I operate. In my experience among feminists in academia, the approach I take on gender discrimination is very common. Generally, it’s believed that feminism, in its current form, has evolved to try and include the rights of men and women of all colors, all ages, and all walks of life. Intersectionality is HUGE. Perhaps it's time to change the label for the movement. I would definitely support a change that was more inclusive. However, despite the female-centric label, feminism is no longer only about women. At least not on the academic level, which is where new feminists are taught, where we explore our views, and where we develop our approach to trying to change the world.

That being said, there are some CRAZY ASS feminists from this generation and from all generations before us. Those radicals, like all radicals do partake heavily in the "us vs them" attitude. I’d like for you to be able to believe me when I say that those crazies are not the majority, and just because someone identifies as a feminist, doesn’t make them self-centered, or out to play the victim, or against the rights that men deserve.

In the perfect world, we’d all be treated equally well. In this world, I truly believe that feminism and other civil rights movements are doing their best to bring us as close to that ideal as is possible.

[–]SchalaZeal01 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Every single feminist blog I ever posted on, except maybe ally's (from the Guardian) and ballgame's (from Feminist Critics), has told me, in no certain term, that the issues men have is "patriarchy backfiring", that femmephobia is why men get shat on for showing feminine behavior. That women don't get shat on for showing masculine behavior.

That this is, somehow, proof of a society devaluing all things female in origin. Not at all of progress made by feminism (and thus a good thing, not proof of oppression of women).

If women can do stuff originally considered masculine without anyone caring, it's because feminism made it more acceptable. Not because masculinity is "something everyone wants", which is also the "go to" feminist explanation (and not just TERF explanation) for why trans men transition.

http://just-smith.tumblr.com/post/11923829194/iamabutchsolo-just-smith-miniar-sjora

I prefer just smith's explanation personally. And he has another.

http://just-smith.tumblr.com/post/9957290581/boys-in-skirts

Note that blogs I posted on include Feministe, Feministing, Alas a blog, and The Good Man Project, amongst others. Not exactly TERF bastions.

[–]unicorncuddles 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Every single feminist blog I ever posted on...has told me, in no certain term, that the issues men have is "patriarchy backfiring", that femmephobia is why men get shat on for showing feminine behavior. That women don't get shat on for showing masculine behavior.

Maybe this is pretentious of me, but I prefer to use information that is peer-reviewed, and published by people of credit to form my opinions. Blogs don't tend to be either of these things, so, to me, they're not valid examples. I understand that if you encounter this sort of behavior enough that it is representative of that sample of individuals. So, I think it'd be a safe assumption to think that these blogs represent the group of feminists that use internet activism as a way to reach people, or, the feminists on those blogs, but it doesn't represent feminism as a whole. We cannot make blanket statements like "...which is also the "go to" feminist explanation..." because, no, it is not necessarily the go-to feminist explanation. If we're going to use blogs to determine how feminists, as a whole, think, we're leaving out countless other forms of media that are used, like academic papers, books, lectures, studies, etc.

that the issues men have is "patriarchy backfiring", that femmephobia is why men get shat on for showing feminine behavior.

Fuck the people who tell you this. Seriously. That is not the feminism I've encountered in academia, it is not the feminism I've encountered while participating in the Vagina Monologues (this completely depends, however.), it is not the feminism I've encountered as an activist (again, who I choose to fall in with likely has an impact on this as well). They're shitty people, they are radical feminists to me, and are misinformed.

I've been told multiple times, by all sorts of people who are feminists that women do get shit on for showing masculine behavior because of gender roles, because a man being feminine is bad, and a woman being masculine is bad. Not because of femmephobia. There are a handful of documentaries out there that tackle gender roles and their negative impact on both sexes. There are TED talks by prominent feminist scholars that talk about how the ideals of masculinity harm men. There are books abound that say these things and more.

...which is also the "go to" feminist explanation (and not just TERF explanation) for why trans men transition.

The reasons people transition are so far beyond the simple idea that everyone wants to be masculine, that someone saying that is the sole reason is laughable. Whoever is saying that has obviously not done their homework. Respect for the idea of an all-encompassing penis envy died with Freud, IMO. The world is so much more complex than everyone wanting a dick.

[–]SchalaZeal01 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

If we're going to use blogs to determine how feminists, as a whole, think, we're leaving out countless other forms of media that are used, like academic papers, books, lectures, studies, etc.

There is a website called Finally Feminism 101. It's been referenced many times (by online non-radical feminists) as the thing to educate newbies or people who are against feminism due to presumed misconceptions about the movement.

It pretty clearly labels femmephobia as an issue exactly the way I did.

The world is so much more complex than everyone wanting a dick.

To a certain brand of feminism (yes I'll admit it's far from universal for the trans man thing, more widespread to assume trans women benefited and continue to benefit in undeserved way, from male privilege). The penis became male privilege.

[–]MrStonedOne 2 points3 points4 points 12 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

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[–]tobasoft[S] -2 points-1 points0 points 12 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

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[–]dejour 2 points3 points4 points 12 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

There's some very good aspects in it. The part that bothers me is the crossed out weak replaced by "like women".

It seems like the author is saying that men's issues are caused by patriarchy backfiring on men.

ie. That all sexism is caused by thinking that women are inferior to men. And this belief can hurt men (though not nearly as bad as it hurts women).

I personally believe that there are gender constraints placed on both men and women. These are enforced by both men and women, and anyone who doesn't conform faces social repercussions. Men are considered superior in some areas and inferior in other areas.

I could forgive the "like women" part if they said that women's problems were because they are perceived "like men". But the implication I get is that both men and women's problems are caused by people being seen as womanly.

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Did you really just cite the land of the grasseaters as evidence that women are attracted to feminine men? Recent surveys show that the majority of Japanese male youth are not interested in sex whatsoever. I would call that an extreme anomaly.

What I never understand about folks like you is that you operate from the assumption that gender roles are bad for everyone. I fail to see how they are bad for masculine men and feminine women. And the only pressure I see on effeminate men and butch women to conform is in their desire to be sexually attractive to the opposite sex. It's not like anyone is twisting your arm.

Am I "enforcing gender roles" when I work out every day to get jacked and flirt with and fuck feminine women? If so, then how is that a bad thing? Or any of your business for that matter?

The MRM is about RIGHTS. That means laws, not social engineering bullshit. I don't care what other people think of me so long as I'm afforded the same legal protections as anyone else. And that is exactly why this movement is thriving and will continue to grow. Because we respect the autonomy of the individual.

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[–]unbannable9412 2 points3 points4 points 12 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]autowikibot 1 point2 points3 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Herbivore men:

Herbivore men (草食(系)男子, Sōshoku(-kei) danshi ?) or grasseaters are a social phenomenon in Japan of men who shun marriage or gaining a girlfriend. They are characteristically described as frugal, and interested in personal grooming. Under this categorisation scheme, men and women are either herbivore type (草食系, sōshoku-kei ?) or carnivore type (肉食系, nikushoku-kei ?). As of September 2010, 36% of Japanese men between the ages of 16 and 19 perceived themselves in this way. Additionally, two surveys of single men in their 20s and 30s found that 61% and 70%, respectively, considered themselves grass-eating men. This phenomenon is viewed by the Japanese government as a leading cause in the nation's declining birth rate, prompting the government to provide incentives for couples that have children, including payouts and free health care.

^Interesting: ^Marriage ⁱⁿ ^Japan ^| ^Masahiro ^Morioka ^| ^Aging ^of ^Japan ^| ^Lad ^culture

^Parent ^commenter ^can ^toggle ^NSFW ^or ^delete^. ^Will ^also ^delete ^on ^comment ^score ^of ^-1 ^or ^less. ^| ^FAQs ^| ^Mods ^| ^Magic ^Words

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Calling something an anomaly doesn't mean that there is something wrong with it, it just means that it deviates from the norm, which Japanese culture currently does. But of course sjws are perpetually looking for ways to take offense so I don't expect you to behave sanely.

Explain to me how the grasseaters connect to women thinking feminine men are hot.

Supply and demand. With the majority of young men completely disinterested in sex with women, young women have to adapt and take whatever men they can get (although a sizeable number of young women in Japan state that they aren't interested in sex with men either). Furthermore, Asian men in general have never been thought of as particularly masculine largely as a result of their collectivist culture that tends to discourage the individually inherent in a masculine personality. You haven't provided anything indicating that Vietnamese women prefer feminine men (or Japanese women for that matter) and as you're acting a bit crazy (typical sjw) I can't exactly take your word for it.

Judging from your zeal and fervor in regards to this topic, you're an effeminate man. So why don't you just move to Japan or Vietnam?

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[–]SchalaZeal01 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (11 children) | Copy Link

There are no motives behind gender roles except the desire for sex.

Makes no sense. You wouldn't need to use it as a tool of control, have such rigid rules, and punish people who don't comply. It would be a do-or-die of "get sex or not" without being ever enforced. So given that there are rules, and that they are heavily enforced (especially upon men), your explanations is much too simplified.

Conversely the only motive driving people to "dismantle" gender roles is that they aren't getting any sex.

Ad hominem.

By the way, I could live without sex forever. But not without companionship. I don't masturbate, I can't cum, and I consider sex to be mostly something I do to please him and to get closeness/intimacy.

I sure don't need gender roles to get that. Heck, I'm attracted to people of all sexes, including people outside the binary.

I see no feasible way that you can change what other men and women find attractive (least of all by whining about gender roles)

I seriously doubt parents cut the hair of their boys to less than 1 inch long to make them attractive to girls. It's the parents own insecurity, projected onto their kid.

[–][deleted] -1 points0 points1 point 12 years ago (10 children) | Copy Link

Gender roles aren't a tool of control, don't have rigid rules, and the only "punishment" you receive for not playing ball is you are less sexually attractive. Everything else is a function of that sexual attractiveness. Men and women who are sexually attractive have high status.

By the way, I could live without sex forever. But not without companionship.

Intimidate companionship is dependent on sexual attractiveness for most people. It's no ad hominem to say that the only reason you're obsessed with gender roles is because you aren't sexually attractive. That doesn't mean you can't have insights about the topic, but it does mean you are self-motivated. The fact is that there exists no altruistic motive for you to want to change what other people find sexually attractive.

Heck, I'm attracted to people of all sexes, including people outside the binary.

That is also sexually unattractive because it indicates that you are unable to have preferences by virtue of the few people who are attracted to you. In a word, it sounds desperate.

I seriously doubt parents cut the hair of their boys to less than 1 inch long to make them attractive to girls.

A lot of parents don't cut their boy's hair short in the wake of Bieber. Young tween girls tend to adore a more femininized version of men and boys by virtue of the fact that masculinity scares them. But when we look at adult women, they by and large are drawn to masculine men. Short hair accentuates the jawline and brow, key indicators of masculinity, but perhaps more importantly it implies an air of utility, a man with no frills who is ready for action, and that is attractive to a lot of people.

[–]SchalaZeal01 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link

Gender roles aren't a tool of control

You don't live on the same planet then.

don't have rigid rules

Then you're on the wrong subreddit, too.

and the only "punishment" you receive for not playing ball is you are less sexually attractive

Let me laugh.

Wear a dress, outside work hours. If your employer even hears you were seen somewhere public dressed like that, you could get fired, and have to sue them to see any justice. They'd feel "their image" was tarnished by being associated with something you do outside work hours that has NOTHING to do with them. And some people would side with them.

It's no ad hominem to say that the only reason you're obsessed with gender roles is because you aren't sexually attractive

Yes it is. "The only reason you do x is because y, therefore your argument z is bunk" is the very definition of ad hominem.

That is also sexually unattractive because it indicates that you are unable to have preferences by virtue of the few people who are attracted to you. In a word, it sounds desperate.

People who only look for one car model and then have the gall to tell people who look for more than the same ol same ol as being desperate...are the insecure ones.

I'm attracted to stuff that isn't physical, mostly. Most of what is superficial is fungible, temporary, and relies on immature tastes (ie I like what media/others told me to like, I have no tastes of my own) if it's conventionally attractive. I also have no intention (and probably physical ability) to reproduce.

A lot of parents don't cut their boy's hair short in the wake of Bieber.

I'm talking about boys of elementary age. Before they often even have a right to decide anything about their haircut or hairstyle. Ages 5-11. Almost 100% will be sporting short hair, most often very short hair.

Historically (save for the Roman empire and 20th century WW1 and beyond), adult men had long hair.

but perhaps more importantly it implies an air of utility

You mean disposability? If I had robot clones, I'd also make them look as utilitarian as possible. And think nothing of killing half of them on a whim. Don't make it look as if it's a positive trait.

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Title	Dear 'Feminists',
Author	tobasoft
Upvotes	38
Comments	69
Date	June 30, 2014 6:21 PM UTC (12 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/29hr1g/dear_feminists/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/dear-feminists.998527 https://theredarchive.com/post/998527

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