Born this way...some thoughts

cvntcvntcvnt · 2021-01-25T16:58:00+00:00

It seems to me that TRP (and MGTOW and black pill, etc) seems to be a semi-reaction to the increased equality of society.

Who are TRP men? They're guys who want things explained in super simple theories in order to reduce all ambiguity in order to get the love and connection that they crave (following TRP almost always ends up with NOT getting those needs met, paradoxically, but that's a convo for another time).

IMO, social roles and stereotypes of "Men are/do XYZ, Women are/do ABC" were of course damaging and arbitrary AND made the world super understandable and unambiguous. So you have men who want love and connection, and their society actively gave them the steps towards those things (whether they worked or not is, again, a different story).

But then equality came in. Suddenly the roles were up in the air. You actually didn't have to do anything that you didn't want to. The plus side is that you're free, the downside is that you have no guidance.

TRP is the reaction of cognitively inflexible men (i.e. men who want/need low ambiguity) towards this lack of guidance. A young man who desperately wants love, connection, etc but isn't told how to get it and is left out in the cold will latch on to anything, especially if it confirms his biases and low opinion of himself (and others). Better to hate the world and understand it completely than to be uncertain and risk suffering. After all, it's cold out there.

defo18 · 2021-01-25T17:25:45+00:00

the problem comes from drawing arbitrary lines and categories instead of actually and analyzing what it is like for the other gender because I'm really starting to think people just want their side to be right instead of actually making progress which is so bad and messed up

Sometimes I really do wonder if most feminists actually understand what it is like to be an average man growing up because they missed the mark and it's almost if if they are sitting down and telling you what you should think and this is how it really is then the actual reality

I left being a male feminist because it is abusive and I already had one abusive woman in my life and I don't need another.I really don't think most feminist understand how much damage women can do and just how much damage to rhetoric that men are just somehow inherently evil and bad does too young boys

Buckley92 · 2021-01-26T02:44:53+00:00

War is a capitalist concept that benefits absofuckinglutely noone, and the draft should be done away with altogether. As for why women weren't drafted in the past... they were. Just different roles. Medics. Ambulance drivers. Nurses. Spies. Telephone exchange. Factory work. Women's Auxiliary Airforce. Bar the last three, all of the jobs I mentioned above were equally dangerous to combat because they also required going near the battlefield and enemy lines. Factory workers and WAAF and telephone exchange were still at big risk of being bombed as they were prime targets for enemy bombs. Also, there are two countries that immediately come to mind that do currently draft women for combat. Israel and North Korea. Israel I don't know enough about but their human rights record in Palestine isn't marvelous, also their people are FAR tougher than Westerners. North Korea has astounding records of poverty even among the military, alarming levels of military rape, and concerning levels of women having consensual sex with superior officers that they were actually pressured into due to the superior's station.

SnooMachines7712 · 2021-01-25T16:43:16+00:00

why would we have to lose feminism to gain equality? how else would equality come about?

most feminists support an equal draft if there is one

Exis007 · 2021-01-25T17:16:54+00:00

So, you're approaching an interesting problem here about whether we embrace taxonomy because of the political power it lends to organizing, or whether we truly embrace postmodernism and say all these distinctions are meaningless.

And I, frankly, don't have a right answer.

Consider that it is one thing to argue philosophically that gender is a construct, that biological sex is more of a continuum than a binary state, that when we come to brass tacks things that make us women and men turn out to be more social than innate and we're really all the same except in some specific ways. That's probably true. But if you want to talk about, just as a for instance, the draft's gender bias or abortion or death in childbirth or domestic violence, there's utility in politically organizing around these taxonomies. Wo/man is a useful, discrete political category. And if you live as a man or a woman, you're probably not down to say it's all just one big, amorphous human experience. As philosophically sound as it may be, the realities of living as a man or a woman feel distinct, the people willing to ally with you politically are different, the way you're seen and treated is different, and it feels like erasure to say, "Oh, but really we're all the same".

Both things can be simultaneously true, weirdly enough. Even if it is philosophically sound to say gender is made up and the points don't matter, that doesn't mean that the lived experience of gender isn't dramatic and binary and real. And so we have to always talk about it both ways. It's real the way fiat currency is real; by collectively agreeing to the fiction, we endow it with reality. But even if individuals or entire communities of people want to try to live in a-gendered universes, so long as the zeitgeist is gendered that will probably be of limited success. And to exist in the zeitgeist, people will politically align themselves under identity umbrellas that allow for their needs to be met.

It's an interesting paradox.

RedLaceBlanket · 2021-01-25T17:45:15+00:00

Selective Service is male only because the people in charge, who were men, wanted it that way. It was challenged in the early 80s and the Supreme Court said nope, still no women.

The same is true of the rules about women in combat.

I find this sub exhausting sometimes.

Edit: a word

Inareskai · 2021-01-25T16:47:35+00:00

Feminism is generally of the opinion that the draft is a Bad Thing in general, but if it has to exist it should include both men and women. The reason women weren't previously included is because the men in charge decided women were weaker/did not want them. There have been quite a few campaigns from women to allow them to join the army/be in those dangerous situations. So for you example, men were forced into combat primarily by other men whilst women were excluded (whether they wanted to be or not).

I'm generally fairly pro- the idea of abolishing concepts of gender and gender roles, and that's one of the reasons I label myself a feminist.

cunningcaring · 2021-01-30T21:12:19+00:00

Why would you have to lose feminism to move forward with equality. Feminism is the force for equality.

Women produce new human beings; they have always been protected in war for that reason. The army needs to be repopulated.

Its not like racism. Its that the genders are different and that's a reality.

Title	Born this way...some thoughts
Author	SnooMachines7712
Upvotes	3
Comments	69
Date	January 25, 2021 4:35 PM UTC (5 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/ExRedPill
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/exredpill/comments/l4rhmw/born_this_waysome_thoughts/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/ExRedPill/born-this-waysome-thoughts.752833 https://theredarchive.com/post/752833

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