Circumcision- evidence that it’s harmful...

WideAwake28 · 2019-09-04T15:12:22+00:00

This sounds a bit concern trolly, but I'm going make a post anyways.

Look at this site it is has tons of links to scientific articles.

https://www.doctorsopposingcircumcision.org

One of the main factors in this whole thing though is that those who have tried to study the complications of circumcision are shut down and not allowed access to hospital data so they cannot get true complication rates which for any other surgery would be unacceptable.

The purported benefits of which there have been hundreds over the years come from studies done by people and organizations which have a monetary stake in pushing it on as many people as possible. The fact is that circumcision is a surgery looking for a problem, when there is none. The number one reason it is pushed in the US is because the doctors who do it make $400 for a half hour of their time then turn around and sell the foreskin to either a research or cosmetics company.

One of the worst offenders is Brian Morris who has a weird fetish for genital mutilation and is a part of nearly ever scientifically unsound study such as the African HIV studies. The studies are touted as proof that circumcision prevents HIV (it doesn't not even close, even when all the circumcised men are taught proper condom use and have to abstain from sex for 6-8 weeks DURING the trial period, while the intact men are not afforded the same education). Not only that but he quotes almost exclusively his own work in his references.

There was a recent study on either the intactivist or men's rights sub that showed there was zero benefit regarding HIV, but I haven't had time to read it yet it might be a good one to check out if you can find it.

You can also watch the movie American Circumcision it's a good documentary with interviews of people on both sides. One of the things I noticed is almost every argument pro-circ people made was rooted in emotion and dismissed evidence to the contrary with out actually addressing it.

bufedad · 2019-09-04T15:17:04+00:00

Other times, I hear men complaining about circumcision and how it’s genital mutilation. I also hear how it ruins male pleasure. Each time I’ve asked how do we know this I’ve been personally attacked and insulted.

Are you really asking for evidence of harm of cutting off parts of babies?

happyunicorn666 · 2019-09-04T16:50:18+00:00

Even if it didn't cause any harm, cutting off part f someone's body without their consent should be illegal.

gnulligan · 2019-09-04T16:24:24+00:00

There's a documentary about it on Netflix called American Circumcision. It's mostly interviews with doctors and focuses exclusively on the facts.

You should watch it. 👍

excess_inquisitivity · 2019-09-04T16:55:51+00:00

Can someone please show me high quality evidence or even a medical association that agrees with the idea that circumcision is harmful?

14 circumcision policies of international organizations oppose it for the following combined reasons: violation of physical integrity, risk to physical and mental health, violation of human rights and medical ethical principles, complications, sexual and psychological effects, painful, and no potential health benefits.

https://circumcision.org/circumcision-policies-of-international-organizations/

Sabertooth767 · 2019-09-04T18:54:24+00:00

I don't particularly care whether it is harmful or not, it's still a violation of the bodily integrity of infant males. "Symbolic" female circumcision is a human rights violation, but is far less invasive than circumcision.

Bonesteel50 · 2019-09-04T15:18:46+00:00

How do we know?

Anecdotes from uncirc, explaining lots of feeling in the foreskin.
Science showing that nerve endings are cut off when foreskin removed.

How is it harmful?

Up to 300 babies die a year from circumcision and related complications. most of it is mislabeled. "blood loss" etc.

Anecdotes that it causes mental distress. Imagine yourself robbed of a part of your body, and only finding out later in life. Feelings of betrayal are common. Shame.

We know that trauma, especially during formative years can cause some really unpredictable problems. It's not a stretch to presume babies do have some lingering trauma deep in their psyche from this assault as a newborn. I won't say with certainty on this one though.

Not to mention the moral aspect of it. Your body your choice. We make decisions every day for babies/kids, but can we really justify this one? Is a child going to die because they did not get circumcised? No. Let the individual choose this for themselves.

When you look at all this, knowing that Circumcision has no real health benefits, how can you justify it?

double-happiness · 2019-09-04T18:30:49+00:00

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17378847

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21672947

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23374102

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17475991

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16291369

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC27490/

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-dutch-circumcision-health/dutch-doctors-urge-end-to-male-circumcision-idUSTRE78M3R620110923

https://www.ibtimes.co.uk/male-circumcision-muslim-jewish-condemned-european-council-511200

http://www.intactamerica.org/german_pediatrics_statement

http://www.drmomma.org/2009/11/massive-infection-takes-over-body-after.html [NSFW/NSFL]

http://www.thewholenetwork.org/twn-news/the-dangers-of-plastibell-circumcisions-graphic [NSFW/NSFL]

InfraggableKrunk69 · 2019-09-04T15:29:34+00:00

I mean you could probably chop off quite a few chunks here and there from a newborn and the kid would turn out fine. I'm circumcised and my attitude is that its hard to miss what I never consciously had... but stiil. Hypothetically you could slice off pinky toes, earlobes, and bits of the brain as well.. but why in the hell would you? It should be a choice.

RoryTate · 2019-09-04T16:14:07+00:00

When I read a man who has half of his life’s work taken because of some strange family law ruling or injustice, I’m in agreement.

That's a rather unusual statement to make for someone who claims to follow this forum. Laws that send men to jail because they are unemployed, unable to work, in financial trouble because of medical issues, etc, and cannot afford to pay child support or alimony, are the norm across every developed nation of the world. The United States legal system even forces men who are not the biological father of a child to pay child support, simply because they were lied to by the mother at the child's birth and agreed to put their name on the birth certificate. Look up the legal terms for "equitable" or "psychological" father if you are interested, because they exist in every country throughout the world. I could list out more injustices, but this is enough to make my point that these attitudes and practices are not strange or obscure. They are the standard way in which "women and children first" and the "interests of the child" are purportedly protected throughout the world, and it is always at the expense of innocent and powerless men.

Can someone please show me high quality evidence or even a medical association that agrees with the idea that circumcision is harmful?

Wow, talk about a leading question. Was FGM banned because of high quality evidence? No? Yes? Can you point me to all of the studies backing up its status as harmful to girls and women? Because by the same faulty reasoning you use here the horrible practice of FGM should be allowed as well, without all that evidence.

Let me play devil's advocate for a moment and ask you to convince us using multiple studies why the trimming of the labia majora on infant girls (a procedure called labiaplasty), when done successfully and under hygienic conditions, is harmful. Please find the appropriate materials and reply either to my comment, or in an edit of your post, with all of this objective evidence.

Personally, I think both FGM and MGM should be banned for anyone under a reasonable age, on ethical and medical grounds, but you appear to think otherwise. That position is very strange and unreasonable to me.

bhullj11 · 2019-09-04T18:08:00+00:00

How about you think about it a different way. I accidentally electrocuted myself as a kid while playing with an electrical outlet. I was in sever pain for two days. I’m completely fine now though and I haven’t suffered any long-term effects from it. Does that mean that we should just electrocute all children? Just because they won’t suffer any long-term effects it should be fine?

jimmybrite · 2019-09-04T16:05:39+00:00

Each time I’ve asked how do we know this I’ve been personally attacked and insulted.

On here? Doubt it, you were probably instigating.

Throwaway_Old_Guy · 2019-09-04T20:51:39+00:00

How about this;

I was circumcised at 36, due to Phimosis. I was never actually told what it was by the Urologist, and was told the only treatment was circumcision. I wasn't thrilled with that option, and chose to suffer for a few years before undergoing the knife.

Looking back on it, I have come to the realization that it may have been different if I had been made aware of options.

information about Phimosis here Although this discusses the condition in children, I think you can safely substitute adults without affecting the intent of the article.

Just my hindsight thoughts on the situation;

The Urologist is Jewish, so there might be some personal bias. He did not mention any other treatment options, and I can only surmise that it was motivated by money.

I am not suggesting his personal religion as the money motivation, rather it was purely a financial profit decision. There is a greater monetary gain in doing a surgery, (and possibly selling the foreskin) then writing a prescription for which the Dr. can only bill for the office visit, and the Pharmacy and Pharmaceutical company profit from the medication.

Luchadorgreen · 2019-09-04T21:35:19+00:00

If I told you that flaying the skin off your arm would decrease sensitivity, would you require a study to believe it?

jimmi-jones · 2019-09-04T22:51:46+00:00

"Prevention and Management of Procedural Pain in the Neonate: An Update," where they stated -

“exposure to pain early in life can create changes in brain development and the body's stress response systems that can last into childhood.”

They also indicated that in relation to neonate circumcision the only known effective pain management was multiple doses of sucrose which can affect neurological development. As a result their recommendation is -

“every health facility caring for newborns should use strategies to minimize the number of painful procedures performed”

https://www.aap.org/en-us/about-the-aap/aap-press-room/pages/AAP-Newborns-Especially-Preemies-Experience-Too-Much-Pain-During-Routine-Procedures.aspx

jimmi-jones · 2019-09-04T22:52:48+00:00

“There are immediate risks to circumcision such as bleeding, infection and penile injury, as well as complications recognized later that may include buried penis, meatal stenosis, skin bridges, chordee and poor cosmetic appearance. Some of these complications may require surgical correction.”

“The risks and disadvantages of circumcision are encountered early whereas the advantages and benefits are prospective.”

https://www.auanet.org/guidelines/circumcision

Dormwhorf · 2019-09-05T06:34:31+00:00

The loss of healthy genital tissue is harm in and of itself. Its an unethical violation of a person's right to bodily integrity to remove from a child barring medical need. That is the crux of the issue. Whether circumcision is a net positive, net net negative, or makes little difference depends on an individual's preferences and body, which is why it is so important to leave this decision to an individual. It should be used as a last resort option for children only when there are actual issues present. That is what the NHS (UK) web page says. It also says that there is a risk of reduced sensitivity in the head of the penis. The KNMG (Dutch medical organization) has a strong stance against non therapeutic child circumcision. Danish and Swedish medical organizations have issued statements against non therapeutic child circumcision previously.

DancePower · 2019-09-05T13:15:29+00:00

Basic logic: it's there, it sticks to it like a nail at first, a fucklot of bleeding comes when performing MGM...

The uhh babies shriek of pain

I think the foreskin is supposed to stay...

problem_redditor · 2019-09-04T20:32:24+00:00

Here is a Danish study that shows that circumcised boys have an increased risk of developing autism spectrum disorders (ASD) and hyperactivity disorder. The study's sample size is large, with a total of 342,877 boys born between 1994 and 2013 participating in the study.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4530408/

From the study:

Ritual circumcision among Danish boys is linked to an overall 46–62% increase in ASD risk in the first 10 years of life, with the upper risk estimate obtained after restriction to the period with the most complete data. More strikingly, risk was 80–83% increased in the first 0–4 years of life, an increase that was restricted to infantile autism. Non-therapeutic circumcision is uncommon in Denmark outside Jewish and Muslim communities, but due to our study’s national coverage over two decades (1994–2013), findings were based on fairly solid numbers, and a series of robustness analyses confirmed the main findings. To our knowledge, there is no prior evidence to suggest a link between circumcision and hyperactivity disorder, so our finding of an increased risk of this common neurobehavioral disorder among circumcised boys in non-Muslim families was unexpected and needs cautious interpretation. As expected, risk of asthma was independent of the boys’ foreskin status, which is in accordance with prior findings for asthma in the first years of life.

Yet another study showed higher rates of alexithymia (a personality trait disorder where those affected have difficulties in identifying and expressing emotions) among men who were circumcised as infants. This study has a sample size of 300.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/270190401_Alexithymia_and_Circumcision_Trauma_A_Preliminary_Investigation

Here is the abstract:

This preliminary study investigates what role early trauma might have in alexithymia acquisition for adults by controlling for male circumcision. Three hundred self-selected men were administered the Toronto Twenty-Item Alexithymia Scale checklist and a personal history questionnaire. The circumcised men had age-adjusted alexithymia scores 19.9 percent higher than the intact men; were 1.57 times more likely to have high alexithymia scores; were 2.30 times less likely to have low alexithymia scores; had higher prevalence of two of the three alexithymia factors (difficulty identifying feelings and difficulty describing feelings); and were 4.53 times more likely to use an erectile dysfunction drug. Alexithymia in this population of adult men is statistically significant for having experienced circumcision trauma and for erectile dysfunction drug use.

Observational studies of boys undergoing circumcision showed "short and long-term changes in physiological stress indicators, disturbed adaptation to the postnatal environment, interference with normal mother–child bonding and disruption of breastfeeding patterns".

In my opinion, the results of these studies are worrying and I think it warrants further discussion and investigation instead of outright dismissal. Pain and stress stemming from circumcision in infancy and early childhood may have very serious long-term psychological consequences. There's plenty of evidence to show that newborns and infants perceive pain and stress very much like older children and adults, and have full capacity for conscious perception although they cannot express such perceptions.

However, anaesthetics which are safe to use on newborns are largely ineffective and a huge amount of infant circumcisions are performed without any anaesthetic at all.

And therefore circumcisions, even successful circumcisions, conducted at such a young age are an extremely traumatic experience for an infant, especially since they lack the necessary mental tools in order to contextualise what is happening to them. They are unable to understand why the procedure is being done, why it hurts or how long the pain will last. All they know during the procedure is agony and distress and the brain essentially rewires its neural connections in an attempt to protect itself. And never returns to its original configuration.

Here is an account from a doctor who attempted to observe the effects of circumcision on the infant brain by using an fMRI and/or PET scan. Scans were conducted prior to, during and after circumcision.

https://circumcision.org/circumcision-permanently-alters-the-brain/

We tightly strapped an infant to a traditional plastic “circumstraint” using Velcro restraints. We also completely immobilized the infant’s head using standard surgical tape. The entire apparatus was then introduced into the MRI chamber. Since no metal objects could be used because of the high magnetic fields, the doctor who performed the surgery used a plastic bell with a sterilized obsidian bade to cut the foreskin. No anesthetic was used.

The baby was kept in the machine for several minutes to generate baseline data of the normal metabolic activity in the brain. This was used to compare to the data gathered during and after the surgery. Analysis of the MRI data indicated that the surgery subjected the infant to significant trauma. The greatest changes occurred in the limbic system concentrating in the amygdala and in the frontal and temporal lobes.

A neurologist who saw the results postulated that the data indicated that circumcision affected most intensely the portions of the victim’s brain associated with reasoning, perception and emotions. Follow up tests on the infant one day, one week and one month after the surgery indicated that the child’s brain never returned to its baseline configuration. In other words, the evidence generated by this research indicated that the brain of the circumcised infant was permanently changed by the surgery.

The most disturbing part, though, comes in the next paragraph.

Our problems began when we attempted to publish our findings in the open medical literature. All of the participants in the research including myself were called before the hospital discipline committee and were severely reprimanded. We were told that while male circumcision was legal under all circumstances in Canada, any attempt to study the adverse effects of circumcision was strictly prohibited by the ethical regulations. Not only could we not publish the results of our research, but we also had to destroy all of our results. If we refused to comply, we were all threatened with immediate dismissal and legal action.

So they considered the actions of the researchers "unethical" for attempting to study circumcision's effects on the baby, and ordered them to destroy their evidence because it showed the adverse effects of circumcision.

This is an extremely concerning anecdote, and it makes me wonder how much evidence against circumcision has been suppressed because it didn't conveniently fit the prevailing narrative.

mtcapri · 2019-09-04T16:24:46+00:00

As far as I'm aware, there isn't solid evidence it's harmful in the long run.

But that's also completely irrelevant, because mutilating a baby's genitals for no other reason than your religious beliefs or so they can look "normal" is fucking evil. End of story.

I will never understand people who struggle with such a basic idea.

SupotCel · 2019-09-04T23:47:27+00:00

I got rejected by multiple females because my dick was not clipped.

They even said to me the girls don’t like it because it is unsanitary.

My pediatrician when I was a kid even told me “it will be a problem for you”.

Title	Circumcision- evidence that it’s harmful...
Author	TriGuy99
Upvotes	16
Comments	61
Date	September 4, 2019 2:47 PM UTC (6 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/czlutc/circumcision_evidence_that_its_harmful/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/circumcision-evidence-that-its-harmful.869848 https://theredarchive.com/post/869848

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