Don’t Fight With This

iainmf · 2022-02-01T04:05:44+00:00

How many of you support women’s rights?

I support women's rights

why is feminism such a big problem for all of you?

The feminist movement is not for equal rights. They keep advocating for laws and policies that discriminate against men.

g1455ofwater · 2022-02-01T04:22:20+00:00

When 99% of reddit catering to women just isn't enough.

BBQKing1969 · 2022-02-01T04:17:26+00:00

I’m all for women’s rights, but it gets annoying when society will bend over backwards to aid a female rape victim, yet the same society will basically say “Toughen up, you’re a man!” to male rape victims.

mikesteane · 2022-02-01T05:32:29+00:00

What rights are you talking about? The right not to be named after making a false accusation? The right to commit paternity fraud without consequences? The right to get positions based on quotas? You need to be a bit more specific in the question.

Edit: Why have you not answered this?

nyarlathotep999 · 2022-02-01T05:12:28+00:00

How many feminists support men's rights? Why is men's rights such a big problem for all of you? I mean, we don't go round autobanning members of feminist subreddits or kicking you out of our subreddit for asking questions, a common practice in feminist subreddits enacted against anyone they perceive as being part of the "manosphere". We don't go round picketing your events. Seems like a bit of projection on your part, but I'll answer your questions when you answer mine.

HyperJCT · 2022-02-01T04:22:53+00:00

I support actual women’s rights. The problem I find is they consider getting everything better for them a right of theirs. Or like you mentioned, calling something a ‘woman’s issue’ when it’s an issue for everyone but they only want it fixed for them.

Banecroc15 · 2022-02-01T04:55:38+00:00

Women's rights isn't a problem for "all of us". We had this conversation in another form already. This page isn't made to combat feminism. This page is made for men to talk about and discuss the issues that many men face and how to potentially combat them. I have a question for you: Why do you seem to hate this page to an extent that you constantly attempt to antagonize it? Like seriously. We're not against women's rights, but this isn't a page for conversations about feminism, so when you constantly go to so many comments on this page and retort with things that basically add up to "Well, women have it worse" of course people are going to be pissed. It's the same thing as me going to a feminist page and constantly saying "Not all men" or "This happens to men too". Ffs.

Ok_Stress_4977 · 2022-02-01T04:45:43+00:00

[permanently deleted]

arrouk · 2022-02-01T08:32:44+00:00

Yes I would, women's rights are also an issue in some areas.

The issue comes with modern feminism which isn't looking for equality but dominance, many times through blaming all men for the actions of a few while if the reverse was said there would be an out cry.

A rule of thumb, if you cannot reverse the genders in a statement or situation then there is sexism. For example many would say "she hit him because he was rude" is acceptable bit not the reverse "he hit her because she was rude".

There are advantages women get in many areas such as divorce or family court where for men to have equal treatment women will lose their advantage so many if not all feminists are against this.

Then there is the issue of modern feminists closing down any male only helping charities while advocating for women's only shelters and help thus further disadvantaging men further.

Head-Medium-3007 · 2022-02-01T04:42:24+00:00

The idea of women’s rights is a farce to me it’s based on the idea that women never had rights.

Was there ever a "good" wave of feminism? Karen Straughan argues that even first wave feminists were highly selective in their demands for "equality"

Karen aka u/girlwriteswhat posted this on R/MensRights last week. I thought it deserved its own thread.

TL;DR -- All of the perks, none of the responsibilities. Same as it ever was.

1st wave feminists:

⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Won the right for married women to own their own property and income, and hold it separate from their husband's control. [Yet] maintained the legal entitlement of married women to be supported financially by their husband. (Otherwise known as, "what's mine is mine and what's yours is ours.) Her entitlement to his support even extended to the tax burden on her property and income--property and income he was legally prohibited from touching.

So basically, instead of demanding equal rights as administrators of the marital income and property, they demanded the rights of unmarried persons without the responsibilities, and the rights of married women without accompanying responsibilities. Men were still held to their responsibility as sole provider for the family, including the wife, but now had to do it without access to their wives' incomes and property.

There were men sent to prison in the UK for tax evasion for being unable to pay the taxes owing on the property/income of their wealthier wives. One suffragette, Dr. Elizabeth Wilks even refused (as was her right under the law) to provide her husband with the necessary documentation so he could calculate the taxes, and given that he was a schoolteacher and responsible for paying for everything else, he couldn't have afforded to pay it regardless.

While he was in prison, she urged other suffragettes to do what she had. He was released from prison on humanitarian grounds due to his failing health, and died a few months later.

2) Won default mother custody of young children upon divorce or separation. Previously, the assumption was of paternal custody since the father was solely burdened with financial responsibility for their care.

Of course, it was only custody that was changed--financial responsibility still fell 100% to the father to maintain the household of his minor children. Since his ex was head of that household, he was now forced to continue supporting her even if she was at fault for the breakdown of the marriage.

So again, we went from the man having superior rights and greater responsibility, to the man having inferior rights and still having greater responsibility.

Hilariously, in 1910, after these two legal innovations had been in effect in NY State for close to 40 years, a suffragette lawyer (yes, before women were allowed to get an education and all...) wrote in the Times that the law still discriminated against women on the matter of children. How did the law do so? The only area of the law at that time that did not consider mothers at least equal custodians and guardians were the provisions granting the father control over the minor children's income and property. Basically, the law saw him as 100% responsible for feeding, clothing and sheltering the children, therefore it gave him 100% of the right to manage their money for that end.

A woman could, at that time, go to court and demonstrate that her husband had legally abandoned his financial responsibility to her and the kids, and there were provisions for transferring said rights to manage the children's income/property to her in such cases (and in the worst cases the man could end up in prison for refusing to support his family to the best of his ability). But this suffragette wanted the laws themselves changed such that wives (who bore no legal financial responsibility toward their children, or even themselves) have equal control over the children's income and property.

These changes were all in place decades before women got the vote. And speaking of the vote...

3) In 1917 a group of anarchists in the US filed a federal case against military conscription, describing it as involuntary servitude and therefore unconstitutional. SCOTUS was unequivocal in its rejection of their argument, asserting that the draft was a reciprocal obligation owed by all citizens to the state in return for the rights conferred by the state upon citizens.

Among other legal obligations men owed to the state: hue and cry laws, bucket brigades, the special constabulary (being drafted into the police force in emergency situations), etc.

Some suffragettes (like Sylvia Pankhurst, who abandoned the suffragette movement over it) were opposed to the draft, but other more active (and now more famous) ones campaigned in favor of the draft and participated in campaigns designed to use public shaming to pressure men to enlist. One of their posters even decried the fact that a woman was denied the franchise no matter how great she was (she could be a doctor or a lawyer or a mother, or a mayor), while even men unfit for military service did not lose their right to vote.

Two years after SCOTUS formalized the draft as being part of the price all citizens must pay for their rights as citizens, women got the vote. And no obligation to the state was ever placed on them in return for this right.

And before anyone here says, "but women weren't ALLOWED to be soldiers!", there are other ways to serve your country during wartime, and mandatory "war work" (like sewing uniforms or assembling munitions) could have been made a thing in a female draft. Anyone arguing that if women were included in the draft today "we'd be sending tiny, vulnerable women into foxholes" is ignoring the fact that there is TONS of necessary work in and alongside the military that doesn't involve active combat or serious physical risk, so that argument basically boils down to "how dare we inconvenience women!"

So. Three examples of first wave feminists demanding and getting men's rights without men's responsibilities. Two of them actively involve zero sum situations such as income and property rights, or custody rights to children, and in both cases feminists managed to arrange things such that women got all the rights while men were still burdened with all the responsibility.

Women could and also did own property throughout history: https://www.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/iu2ebj/women_could_and_did_own_property_and_have_rights/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf

nevermock · 2022-02-01T06:33:00+00:00

I support human freedom.

AffectionateRun5053 · 2022-02-01T13:17:17+00:00

There's a very obvious agenda behind posts like this...

Inevitable_Brain9852 · 2022-02-01T11:52:01+00:00

Yes i support women’s rights. No I have not said that men experience it too.

But I ask you the question. If men are genuinely experiencing the same issue. And feminism is about the equality of the sexes. Then why would they be against men saying “we understand because we are going through with the same issue.” If they truly are for equality then they should have zero problems with men also talking about problems they experience. Especially if it’s one that both men and women face.

Lastly we don’t hate feminism. We dislike anyone who pretends to be a feminist but only care about the woman’s side of it. But now that has become such a large number of the woman in feminism that they are becoming synonymous. Hence why they get called third and fourth wave feminists. And if you look online anyone who was first or second wave doesn’t like the third or fourth wave. Because they can obviously see it’s no longer about equality. And just the advancement of women at the expense of men.

EricAllonde · 2022-02-01T22:16:21+00:00

I often see feminists claim that "Feminism is about equality", and I always have to explain to their audience that no, feminism is not about equality, but rather the opposite of that.

Feminism is simply the lobbying effort for the advancement of women's interests.

Feminism demands more advantages & privileges for women, in all circumstances, all the time and without limitation.

Even in contexts where women already have more rights, privileges or advantages than men, feminists demand even more for women - the exact opposite of the "equality" feminist propaganda claims to want.

There has never been a single situation where feminism has acted to correct a gender imbalance that favored women. On the contrary, in every such case feminism has only worked to entrench and further increase female privilege.

Show me a single case where feminism acted to advance the interests of men because, in that particular area, men are discriminated against and/or disadvantaged. You can't. The best you can come up with are feminist claims of "trickle-down equality", cases where feminism acted in women's interests and claimed, "This will help men too".

Show me a single case where feminism achieved its goal of equality and then stopped, rather than continuing to push forwards. You can't, there is simply no mechanism built into feminism to make it stop when equality is achieved.

It's trivially easy to disprove the claim that feminism is about gender equality:

One of the ways to do that is to get a group of feminists together and tell them that male babies & boys deserve the same legal protection from genital mutilation that female babies and girls already have. A large percentage of the feminists will argue against that.

Or tell the feminists that gender equality means equal responsibilities, so women should be required to register for the draft exactly as men have to. A lot of the feminists will argue against that.

Try to enrol feminists in closing the gender sentencing gap. No, that's one gender gap that suits feminists just fine. In fact the only feminist involvement in this issue is from feminist groups trying to abolish prison for women completely, thereby increasing the gender sentencing gap to infinity.

For the most angry, anti-equality reaction of all, try telling feminists that since women have a legal right to have sex without being forced into parenthood, gender equality means that men deserve to have that same legal right. Feminists chant, "Consent to sex is not consent to parenthood", and I agree - the only difference is that I think that statement should apply to both genders, not only one.

At least 95% of feminists will bitterly disagree with gender equality on this subject, and most of them will list off all the ways that men are horrible, pathetic losers who don't deserve rights - with their now-obvious hatred of men dripping from every word.

No one should ever put up with the "Feminism is about equality" nonsense that the man-haters always spout. It's an obvious lie.

Caspianmk · 2022-02-01T04:22:03+00:00

Yes, I support women's rights, just like i support LGBTQ+ rights, and minority rights, and workers rights. We each encounter different situations and circumstances in our individual lives. It's when someone else decides that their rights are more important than someone else's that i disagree.

Woman face many challenges that men face as well. Sexual assault happens to both of us, but women have resources to help, men do not. Discrimination in the workplace. Just being a woman is a protected class above men and getting fired simply based on your gender is illegal for a woman but not for a man.

This isn't an Us versus Them debate. It's all of us versus a system that needs to be fixed. When everyone is treated equally by the law and society, then we will truly be equal.

Intergalacticio · 2022-02-01T11:19:52+00:00

Yes. My only qualms with feminism is that it can sometimes feel a bit exclusionary towards things non-feminine. But in general I do support it.

AzLibDem · 2022-02-01T14:59:15+00:00

In the beginning, feminism was a necessary, self-evident proposition, that women deserved the same rights to work, own property, get credit, etc. I have always supported that position, and always will.

However, that was a few "waves" ago, and now it has become, by many of it's adherents, a direct assault on the rights and character of men as a group. In practical terms it advocates for unlimited rights and little or no responsibility.

But when this is pointed out, women, as you do above, try to say that feminism is nothing more than advocating for equality. While technically accurate by definition, that is no longer true in practice, and it is disingenuous at best to claim otherwise.

JosephsonAdam · 2022-02-01T14:59:30+00:00

I support women's rights.

Anih1list · 2022-02-01T20:56:03+00:00

You can't have men's rights without women's rights. I believe men should have the right to opt out of fatherhood, for example, but this is only possible if women can choose to abort a fetus she can't support by herself. Conversely, feminism is currently broken because it doesn't appeal to men. For example, conservatives are absolutely vitriolic to trans women because they believe trans women are actually men, and conservatives believe men can't be trusted around women. You can draw a straight line from misandry to transmisogyny, and the fact feminists don't mention misandry nearly enough seriously hampers its ability to make progress.

Ok_Stress_4977 · 2022-02-01T04:27:58+00:00

Just to note, the definition of feminism is: the advocacy of womens rights on the basis of equality of the sexes.

Title	Don’t Fight With This
Author	Ok_Stress_4977
Upvotes	0
Comments	98
Date	February 1, 2022 1:23 AM UTC (4 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/shi6cv/dont_fight_with_this/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/dont-fight-with-this.1098590 https://theredarchive.com/post/1098590

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