Feminism and men's issues

Legolas-the-elf · 2012-01-07T16:18:24+00:00

I've tried it. For example, I submitted an article talking about people's biggest regrets on their deathbeds, because the second most common - working too much - disproportionately affected men, and this ties into the whole men = breadwinner gender role.

The submission to /r/MensRights resulted in comments sympathetic to the problem and a little discussion.

The submission to /r/Feminism resulted in a single comment saying "not relevant to feminism, how selfish, should have volunteered for a women's shelter".

2012-01-07T18:14:04+00:00

I usually say that it's not up to women to decide what's important to men, nor is it up to women to define masculinity. How would they feel if they were excluded from female issues, but were told "Don't worry, we have your best interest at heart"?

Then of course, there are the numerous examples of feminist organizations actively working against men's rights, but those are always dismissed by the no true Scotsman fallacy.

mynameisflorian · 2012-01-07T18:31:20+00:00

The problem is that they will say "the patriarchy hurts men too," without ever defining the terms of what patriarchy is. When you ask them to define it, it is of course men oppressing women. Without going to deep into this, they use terms and language that are particularly amorphous, so that when you ask to find out the definition for common discussion, only those in the fold are able to talk about it. "You just don't understand," then comes the vitriol, and ad hominems.

There is no overlap between feminism, and equal rights/mens rights, because feminism is not about equal rights. Feminism is about rights for women, with no accompanying responsibilities, and oppressing men. See: The Fraud of Feminism, by E Belfort Bax

The radical feminists drive the movement, they always have [even since the late 1800s.] Here this author actually urges suffragettes, that is women for the vote, to not associate with feminists, because feminists don't even care about the same issues as the women who want to vote. Moderates, as well as normal women who may not ever even consider themselves feminist, will instantly align with anything put under the banner of "feminism" when its put forth. They'll ostracize any woman who doesn't [see: Erin Pizzey for an example.] This is why the radfems are so successful at pushing anti-male legislation, as well as shooting down actual equal rights legislation, like we just saw in the case where a non-biological father can't sue for child support for a child that wasn't his, or when they claim women should not be sent to jail, even where there is already a clear sentencing disparity between the genders.

So not surprisingly, the feminist solution for men has always been, and always will be, more feminism.

DevinV · 2012-01-07T18:19:46+00:00

The cognitive dissonance you get from feminists is amazing.

EvilPundit · 2012-01-07T17:56:04+00:00

It's pointless to argue with feminists if you want to change their minds.

But there are far more lurkers than talkers. The point is not to change the feminists' minds, but to demonstrate why they are wrong to that larger audience.

iaH6eeBu · 2012-01-07T19:25:56+00:00

I think we here in Mensrights are a bit too obsessed with feminism. Large part of the problems men face aren't because of feminism but because of gender roles and other things.

Huns · 2012-01-08T03:29:55+00:00

I got into a heated argument with someone about this on a forum (not Reddit), and the mods gave me a week long vacation for it.

Feminism and egalitarianism overlap, but they are not the same thing. Any proper definition of feminism would have to include that it revolves around women and girls. This should be perfectly obvious, because it's codified into the very name of the movement. Any benefit men get because of feminist activity is secondary to feminism's purpose, which is to increase the status of females to be the same as males.

Pure gender-egalitarianism would be concerned with making sure BOTH sexes get the exact same treatment. That's something I can get behind. I don't particularly have a problem with feminism focusing on issues faced by females, as long as people just ADMIT THAT, rather than trying to conflate it with actual egalitarianism. I don't personally consider myself a feminist because, not being purely egalitarian, it's too narrow in scope.

If someone else wants to be a feminist, that's their choice, but to me it would feel like taking sides. The fact that there are sides in the first place is a problem.

The only argument I've seen that comes close to justifying an egalitarian description of feminism is the undoing of the patriarchy. However, the patriarchy - while responsible for SOME inequities faced by men - would have to NECESSARILY cause ALL of them. The person I was debating with was unable to prove why this should be the case.

Also, I think of any man who calls himself a feminist as something like an Uncle Tom. If women want to look out for themselves and ignore inequalities faced by men, either because they don't know those inequalities exist or because they don't care, that doesn't bother me. What does bother me is the idea that a man would allow someone to tell him he should ignore issues facing his sex, for the benefit of the opposite sex. I would highly suspect the self-esteem and self-preservation instincts of such a man, for the same reason that I'd be suspicious of a woman who says "all women are bitches" or "all women or evil," or a black person who goes on about how cool it would be to be white.

PierceHarlan · 2012-01-07T15:42:00+00:00

Well, here's an example from today about how much feminism is concerned about problems that affect men: http://falserapesociety.blogspot.com/2012/01/sexual-grievance-industry-rep-says.html

Ma99ie · 2012-01-07T22:20:18+00:00

Feminists also say that they shouldn't be responsible for men's rights, and that men be fight for their own rights. It get's rather confusing...actually, it isn't. It is just mendatious.

matt_512 · 2012-01-08T02:37:25+00:00

If feminists were more worried about men, then I wouldn't feel the need to be here.

smischmal · 2012-01-07T18:04:18+00:00

I'm a feminist for Men's Rights. I wouldn't say that the idea of men's rights is "not legitimate", just like I wouldn't say that 'women's rights' is not legitimate. Both are merely the more political results of holding the ideal of gender equality.

However, I am often disappointed by the misogyny and blatant misrepresentation of feminism as a whole that I see here, but I try to not let a number of bad eggs spoil the idea, just like I try to avoid letting the radical sexist 'feminists' from spoiling my view of the rest of feminism.

That said, I think that some of the mods on /r/feminisms in particular probably suck, if not as people, then at least as moderators. I crossposted this there and it failed to show up in the new queue. Several messages to the moderators failed to remedy the situation, so while it got a lot of points on /r/f7u12 and /r/MensRights, almost no one saw it on /r/feminisms.

edpp901 · 2012-01-07T21:20:48+00:00

Is there truly anything that demonstrates an equal opportunity for both rights? Feminism = female rights, and females are more touchy because it isn't default, like men's rights. But men's rights = how men are ignored and put down generally.

I don't think there's room in either for the other sex, otherwise that'd be defeating the object, right?

rachiedoubt · 2012-01-08T12:50:56+00:00

I'm just frustrated by the word "feminist". Even the name is all about women. They say it's about men, too, somehow... though I've never been able to understand that. Not all feminists are bad and ridiculous, but so many I've encountered are. And I live in a really super hippie greener place in Washington state... so I encounter that a lot.

I just want equal rights for everyone. All people. I can understand how the women's rights movement was important, but now men's rights are just as important. EVERYONE'S RIGHTS ARE IMPORTANT. I can't stand women who argue that men are nowhere near as discriminated against. Yes. They. Are. Everyone is.

It's 5 a.m. and I really should not be ranting on reddit

Bobsutan · 2012-01-09T08:10:34+00:00

Interesting topic. I just did this tonight:

http://www.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/o7gmf/the_most_relevant_social_issue_discussed_on/c3fcm60

2012-01-07T15:29:25+00:00

[permanently deleted]

smischmal · 2012-01-07T18:10:17+00:00

[permanently deleted]

Title	Feminism and men's issues
Author	Leichenschrei
Upvotes	23
Comments	55
Date	January 7, 2012 3:24 PM UTC (14 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/o6sab/feminism_and_mens_issues/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/feminism-and-mens-issues.1029537 https://theredarchive.com/post/1029537

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