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[–]King_Turnip 44 points45 points46 points 11 years ago (29 children) | Copy Link
It is grammatically correct (though a bit outdated) to use male pronouns for instances where a person's gender is undetermined.
[+][deleted] 11 years ago (15 children) | Copy Link
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[–]Suitecake 13 points14 points15 points 11 years ago (14 children) | Copy Link
It didn't seem to be what you were suggesting. It seemed like you were suggesting this use of the male pronoun is indicative of sexism.
If you really are only suggesting that this grammatical practice is outdated, then this whole post is irrelevant.
[–]the3rdoption 6 points7 points8 points 11 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link
A more modern and appropriate version would be "their".
[–]Suitecake 1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link
Yes, that's the general consensus amongst liberal folk. But there are whole swaths of the English-speaking world (at least in America) who disagree. I see the male pronoun used for unknown gender all the time.
And Georgia definitely ain't liberal.
[–]MotherFuckin-Oedipus[🍰] 4 points5 points6 points 11 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
The use of "his" as a pronoun for an unknown gender shouldn't bother anyone who has studied any other (Western) language. Making it into a sexism talking point is a quibble over political correctness and doesn't actually further any causes.
I don't particularly like the use of "their" to remain gender-neutral since it's a plural form, but I think it's far more natural to read than alternatives such as "he or she" or "s/he".
[–]sundown372 1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
I don't particularly like the use of "their" to remain gender-neutral since it's a plural form
the singular use of "their" has been around for centuries. Even Jane Austen used it.
[–]MotherFuckin-Oedipus[🍰] 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
I'm well aware of its usage history. I'm also not saying it's incorrect.
I'm just stating that I'm not a big fan.
[–]Cashmoneyho2 1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
I'm not a big fan of people who try to keep archaic grammar alive.
The use of they and their as ambiguous gender terms has bothered me since I was in elementary school. If you're not going to try to communicate with as much detail as possible you should just remain mute-
I mean everyone's opinion is valid. Everyone is welcome to share their opinions and I sincerely respect each and everyone of them.
[+][deleted] 11 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link
[–]Tony_Chu 4 points5 points6 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Because of where you posted it. I don't have an opinion about whether this is a purely grammatical or social issue, and I don't disagree with this being posted here to generate discussion. But your choice to do so strongly implies that you wish to discuss sexism surrounding this wording, whether that was your intention or not.
[–]Suitecake 3 points4 points5 points 11 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link
It's a sub-reddit for men's issues, not grammar. It's pretty clear what the point you're trying to make is.
As /u/King_Turnip points out, it's just grammar. Not really worth getting worked up over. For every instance of this, I can find you a positive instance.
There's no real sexism on display here. This post reeks of the same PC oversensitivity that many of us find obnoxious.
[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Although I agree that it is a trivial issue, it is so trivially corrected that the two cancel out. It should be changed to "their job" and let that be the end of it.
[+][deleted] 11 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
[–]Suitecake 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago* (2 children) | Copy Link
And now you're playing your emotional experience as a trump card.
It sucks that that happened to you, but it's irrelevant to this conversation. If anything, it should demonstrate how far removed from serious issues this quibbling over a pronoun is.
EDIT: Everything you're doing in this comment thread? We make fun of feminists when they do it.
[+][deleted] 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
[–]Suitecake 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
I'm not trying to bait you into anything. I'm pointing out some mistakes you're making that undermine your argument. These mistakes aren't subtle, and would get rightly hammered on in a general discussion.
The first mistake is your too-quick claim that this instance of 'his' rather than 'their is an instance of sexism. We don't know that. There are whole swaths of people who use 'his' for indeterminate gender. It's recommended by Strunk & White, which plenty of people still hold as the one, true style guide.
Perhaps, in context of the rest of the form, it's obvious that the form as a whole is sexist, and thus this one instance is damning. But you haven't presented us with the rest of the form, and this one instance without context seems innocuous.
The second mistake is using your personal experience to discredit another person's argument. This mistake is extremely common in arguments about gender politics. Suppose two people are discussing whether or not university rape reporting practices are appropriate. Person A presents her arguments, Person B presents his. Person A then says to Person B "You just don't get it. I was raped. You don't understand this dynamic at all."
Notice that Person A didn't make an argument. Person A didn't address any points that Person B (hypothetically) made. Person A just brought up her own personal experience. But that personal experience really has nothing to do with the objective discussion about whether or not university reporting practices are appropriate. It's anecdotal evidence (which is weak already) for an entirely different argument.
Compare also with an abortion activist who discredits any argument a man makes with "You couldn't even have an abortion; how could you possibly have an opinion on the subject."
It sounds like you wanted to express your frustration over your experience and the sexism of the whole process. That might have come across a lot better in a text post, where you could provide full context. As it is, we just have a pronoun.
[–]ARedthorn 1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
True, although grammatically correct... Quite dangerous where legal documents are concerned. I've heard of several cases where lawyers seized on such language in a legal code to their advantage, and won.
This looks more like a non-official FAQ though, so... Yeah.
[–]NAFI_S 3 points4 points5 points 11 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link
The proper term is to use 'they' or 'their'
[–]jasmineearlgrey -1 points0 points1 point 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
No it isn't. That means multiple people.
[–]jasmineearlgrey -3 points-2 points-1 points 11 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
[–]NAFI_S 5 points6 points7 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singular_they
[–]autowikibot 1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Singular they:
Singular *they_ is the use of they, or its inflected or derivative forms, such as them, their, or themselves, to refer to a single person or an antecedent that is grammatically singular. It typically occurs with an antecedent of indeterminate gender, as in sentences such as: "Everyone returned to their seats." "Somebody left their umbrella in the office. Would they please collect it?" "The patient should be told at the outset how much they will be required to pay." "But a journalist should not be forced to reveal their sources." A reason for its use is that English has no dedicated singular personal pronoun of indeterminate gender. In some cases, its use can be explained by notional agreement because words like "everyone", though singular in form, are plural in meaning. Its use in formal English has increased in recent times with the trend toward gender-inclusive language, but it has been used by respected writers for centuries. Though singular they has a long history of usage and is common in everyday English, its use has been criticized since the late nineteenth century, and acceptance varies.
Singular *they_ is the use of they, or its inflected or derivative forms, such as them, their, or themselves, to refer to a single person or an antecedent that is grammatically singular. It typically occurs with an antecedent of indeterminate gender, as in sentences such as:
"Everyone returned to their seats."
"Somebody left their umbrella in the office. Would they please collect it?"
"The patient should be told at the outset how much they will be required to pay."
"But a journalist should not be forced to reveal their sources."
A reason for its use is that English has no dedicated singular personal pronoun of indeterminate gender. In some cases, its use can be explained by notional agreement because words like "everyone", though singular in form, are plural in meaning. Its use in formal English has increased in recent times with the trend toward gender-inclusive language, but it has been used by respected writers for centuries.
Though singular they has a long history of usage and is common in everyday English, its use has been criticized since the late nineteenth century, and acceptance varies.
Interesting: Gravitational singularity | Essential singularity | Singularity theory | Canonical singularity
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[–]lethatis -1 points0 points1 point 11 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link
Yeah, I'll bet that's exactly what they intended when they wrote it. Surely.
[–]Suitecake 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link
What evidence do you have otherwise?
[–]lethatis -1 points0 points1 point 11 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
/s, of course
[–]Suitecake -1 points0 points1 point 11 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
Unless you're being sarcastic through two levels of indirection instead of just one, I'm confused.
It seems like you're disagreeing with /u/King_Turnip that this instance is the product of a grammatical practice, rather than sexism.
What evidence do you have that this use of the male pronoun stems from sexism?
[–]lethatis 1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Documents like that usually have gender neutral phrasing these days.
[–]Suitecake -1 points0 points1 point 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Maybe Georgia's form is maintained by a Strunk & White adherent.
[–]curomo 4 points5 points6 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
I don't think we talk enough about what happens in that "...quits <their> job?" scenario.
Pre-divorce, we work something out. Maybe the a spouse goes to work. Maybe we tighten our belts.
Post-divorce, we have a deadbeat on our hands. May need to put him in jail so he'll go back to work for you. Certainly, we'll keep a tally of a debt that he may never be able to pay, and we can deny other rights such a driving.
I don't mean to belittle those in much worse conditions, but I cannot reconcile how "keep this job and income level or go to jail" isn't tantamount to slavery.
[–]jessicavalentree 12 points13 points14 points 11 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link
'non-custodial parent' is gender neutral and 'his' or 'her' are often used in place of 'his or her', which is cumbersome, or 'their', which some consider grammatically incorrect when referring to a single person.
You don't have to always look to be offended. Getting riled up over trivial nonsense like this distracts from the actual mens rights issues.
[–]therealJBlack 1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
I kind of see your point. I think we run the risk of sounding like whiny feminists bitching about lines in the women's room or something if we get nit picky or get mired in the minutiae (thanks android auto correct). I'd rather see child custody parity and the forms of the female dominated bureaucracy be damned.
[+][deleted] 11 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link
[–]Suitecake 1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
the convenient use of "his" rather than "their" is intentional.
What evidence do you have for this? The use of 'his' for unknown gender is considered old-fashioned, but not at all uncommon.
Did the form not have sections for mother's last known address, mother's last known place of work, mother's criminal history, etc?
[–]CraftyDrac 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Sorry,but the "issue" you raised here was 1 instance of "his" over "their" - this post may have better as a text post,considering:
It had questions like "FATHER'S last known address", "FATHER'S last known place of work", FATHER'S criminal history", "FATHER'S drug history", etc. Are those gender neutral as well?
I can clearly see how Jessica can consider this screenshot to be complaining;perhaps even whining and distracting from real issues (such as the line quoted above)
I have raised this point before in other contexts,such as an post about miners getting compensation after an mine collapse which was posted here a while ago,while mining is a mainly male profession and safety is important,it's not a MRM issue
To sum up: One header saying "his" over "their" == not important
Obvious bias in public forms from the government that assume the father is a criminal/a drug addict == important
Next time,consider using a text post for more context
edit: this --> "this screenshot" to avoid confusion,talking about the submission - not comment
edit2: formatting
[+][deleted] 11 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
[–]worn 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
People who think 'their' is grammatically incorrect should stop being so prescriptivist. Good thing that kind of attitude is going away. 'They' is such a useful pronoun. Here's a nice video on this subject: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=46ehrFk-gLk
[–]MyKarmaKilledURDogma 2 points3 points4 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
I wish I still had a copy of the Iowa domestic abuse pamphlet that human services hands out to "battered women" it refers to the abusive party as male in approximately 65 separate statements, and advises the "abused party" to basically steal any and all valuables they can carry, regardless of ownership. I'll try to get a fresh copy, and post it
[–]Family-Duty-Hodor 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Try not to take this too literally. Using a male pronoun or term in a gender neutral situation is still very common (e.g. congressman, fireman etc.). I don't think they meant anything by it.
[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link
Why don't both parents pay child support irrespective of custody? Maybe into an account you could withdraw from while being required to account for what it's covering.
[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link
A reasonable way to deal with child support? how would the plethora of women that get knocked up and then live on child support for the next 18 years survive then?
[–]therealJBlack 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
God, I can't wait for Vasalgel...
[–]beetle717 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
I'm in and out of the sub here. What's Vasalgel?
[–]zulu127 1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
There you go.
[–]beetle717 1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Interesting. Hope it takes off. Thank you for the info.
[–]MotherFuckin-Oedipus[🍰] 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
while being required to account for what it's covering.
That requires more government resources than they're willing to throw at each and every case. For regular people, it also means micromanaging the custodial parents' purchases from the account, and paying an attorney when there's a problem.
Don't get me wrong - I've liked this idea for years and years. Its implementation, if we can even get it widely accepted, will be really tricky.
[–]rottingchrist 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Because motherhood is already an "axis of oppression" (see reddit result).
The patriarchal spawn is already tormenting the poor dear enough. It is misogynistic to expect her to make a fair contribution to his upbringing.
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[–]King_Turnip 44 points45 points46 points (29 children) | Copy Link
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[–]Suitecake 13 points14 points15 points (14 children) | Copy Link
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