Just some questions

zyk0s · 2012-04-16T21:02:17+00:00

who doesn't take a side [..] but who is a proponent of gender neutrality.

You won't find many issues on which MRAs stand against gender neutrality, what you may find is MRAs being silent about issues affecting women because they feel it's not their issue. You will however find some feminists who oppose the rights of men, for example by actively demanding that circumcision not be made illegal.

How do we feel? You probably just agree with us on most thing, and then on some things the feminists care about, but they are most likely exclusive and you most likely don't disagree with MRAs.

2) Figures are somewhere in the sidebar, the wage gap you heard about is (average woman's salary)/(average man's salary) = 75%. Hours worked and occupations are not counted. When they are, it goes down to 98%, and seniority, frequency of leave and dedication (i.e. readiness to do overtime, investment in the company and so forth) take care of the rest. In urban areas, for the same job, in the same age group, same hours worked, same seniority, for single childless individuals, women can make up to 20% more then men.

what feminism used to be, and what it sometimes still is; a fight for equality of the sexes.

Since it was never really about equality of the sexes, only about the fight to get some of the same privileges men had (which was basically three things: access to higher education, access to skilled, higher paid jobs, right to vote) and then some, I don't think the question is relevant.

However, it does seem that women's rights aren't important to politicians in the republican party

That is a semantic broadening and a mischaracterization. You might as well have said that the economy is not important to liberals. What can be said is that the issue of reducing and possibly eliminating abortion is important to the republicans. One may say that doing so is a dent in an aspect of women's rights. But the "war on women" concept is nothing more than contemporary McCarthyism.

Legolas-the-elf · 2012-04-16T21:23:18+00:00

How would people here feel about someone who doesn't take a side in either feminism or the MRM, but who is a proponent of gender neutrality.

I identify as an egalitarian, I believe that gendered rights movements are inherently harmful and counterproductive. You could describe me as an anti-feminist and anti-MRA. Despite that, I haven't had any real problems here, and I think a lot of people here are closer to me ideologically than some of the extremists who identify as MRAs. In this thread I outright rejected identifying as an MRA, somebody told me to GTFO, and was down voted for it.

So long as you aren't here to extoll the virtues of feminism, you shouldn't have a problem fitting in here.

nastynuggets · 2012-04-16T23:12:03+00:00

I think a problem with all right's movements is that they lead to fanaticism. For example, in a women's studies program at a university, professors are constantly on the lookout for discrimination against women, reading about and thinking about problems for women, and talking with other people who are also looking for the same things. Every day spent there reinforces the feminist outlook on a deep intuitive level, until the entire world is seen through a kind of feminist "lens".

I think the closer you are to the centre of a right's movement, the more distorted your view of the world will be. I can see it happening with my brother and I, even. We hang out a lot, and since we spend a considerable amount of time talking about men's rights and issues facing men, those issues have become easier to see and care about. In fact, the more I look into gender relations, the less trust I have for feminism and by extension women, to the point that I find it hard to take many issues facing women seriously. I find this sad, yet at the same time I know it is necessary if any change is to occur, or if the harm caused by feminism is to be fixed.

Thankfully, the men's rights movement is small, and since it is such a fringe group, we are forced to challenge our views daily. Feminism, on the other hand, has permeated everywhere and basically goes unchallenged. Additionally, since as a society we are hyper aware of misogyny and mostly indifferent towards misandry, feminism can get away with much more than the MRM can. For these reasons, the MRM is by far the more trustworthy of the two movements.

I would say the MRM is in its golden stage, where it is large enough to have vibrant and varied discussion, yet since it is so reviled by mainstream society it cannot get away with bullshit the way feminism can. I admit I have started to form my own MRA "lens", but I am aware it exists and am actively working to dismantle it.

Anyway, to answer your other questions, the wage gap has been conclusively shown to be a myth. If you haven't already watched it, check out "why men earn more" by Warren farrel (on youtube).

I am absolutely and completely opposed to feminism. I will be happy only when the feminist movement all but ceases to exist and its teachings are eradicated from our social conciousness. Some day, I want the history books to say of feminism: "it was a movement that existed primarily in the 20th century, which sought to remove the disadvantages of the female gender role while ignoring or increasing its advantages. This was accomplished by claiming to be about equality between the genders, taking advantage of society's natural tendency to concern itself with the welfare of women, and convincing".

The problem with the "war on women" thing is that it is ridiculous. The issue of birth control is a legitimate issue for women and some republican candidates are assholes, but that is as far as it goes. If there is a war, its on men.

Mediumtim · 2012-04-16T21:00:57+00:00

1) I identify as a person promoting equality by opposing government mandated inequality and not a whole lot beyond that.

2) great video explaining the wage gap.

3) I do not oppose womens rights, I do oppose any initiative which creates inequality, or involves the force of government where it is unwarranted

pcarvious · 2012-04-17T04:29:11+00:00

I consider myself egalitarian. I'm fighting for mens rights right now because I see men at the largest tangible disadvantage legally. Socially it becomes more hit and miss. However, I would consider men under strictor social control than women. The amount of freedom to move within western culture, to choose a vocation outside of traditional roles, and expectation is much greater for women. The social stigma visited on men that step out of their role is massive, and society doesn't recognize it.

In regards to the wage gap, it's a comparison between the median wage of men and the median wage of women. This doesn't compare discretionary spending which is heavily controlled by women. Nor does it take into account relevant life choices. Choosing to take two years off is going to cost anyone in a career. That women do it more often than men needs to be accounted for.

Feminism was originally a movement with defined goals. Equality in pay, breaking strict gender roles, and voting. Most of that, has been achieved as far as possible. However, I personally but heads with a few of the original mandates because their results in the modern era. First, the pay gap, while it might have existed before, it doesn't exist now as it was originally outlined. Discrimination is not the cause of the wage gap. Until I see data from a study that compared men and women in the same job with the same practical experience and resume qualifications, demonstrating discrimination, the wage gap is explained. Another point where I but heads is in regards to changing gender roles. Nothing has been done to reduce stigma about stay at home dads. There has been no outrage about them being considered baby sitters rather than caregivers.

When it comes to the war on women, it's political pandering. When we start talking about the war on boys I'll pay more attention to all these wars on women. I think that access to safe cheap abortions is something that should be available to everyone. If that means filing at the courts rather than going under the knife then so be it. Giving one person an out without providing the other the same or a similar out isn't equality.

KAMalosh · 2012-04-16T22:06:43+00:00

1) The term you are looking for is egalitarian or humanist (concerned with both men and women’s rights), but if you don’t want to take sides at all, I would stray away identifying with any movement.

2) Mediumtim posted a good video, but to summarize my stance on it: Women and men are generally paid the same wages for the same work. The “wage gap” that is propagated by feminists deals with an overall picture of a profession, which is explained by seniority, qualifications, responsibilities, position, men working more overtime, women taking time off for pregnancy, or many other factors that have nothing to do with gender discrimination.

3) The MRM is not an anti-feminist movement by definition. That is not to say we do not share many views that anti-feminists do, but we are not wholly concerned with bringing down feminism. Our problem with feminism stems primarily from the efforts feminism has taken in discriminating and marginalizing men. False statistics are frequently paraded around (1 in 4 women raped for example), blatantly sexist laws are supported (VAWA), and feminism often portrays men are the sole aggressors (rape, domestic violence). These are only a few examples, and there are plenty more sources out there of the ills feminism has visited upon men.

There are many feminists out there who claim that feminism is about gender equality and use that argument to claim the MRM is irrelevant. They say all we need is more feminism to solve men’s problems. However, feminism has never advocated for men’s rights, unless of course it benefitted women in some way. That’s fine for a movement that will admit it only advocates for women, but they shouldn’t hang on to this notion of supporting gender equality when their track record is so damnable.

4) IMO, this whole “war on women” line is bullshit. Republicans are pandering to the religious conservatives and democrats are pandering to the opposite end. Women are not being rounded up and shot in the streets, they are not being raped en-mass, they are not being kidnapped by the government and hauled away to secret prisons. You know, the stuff that can happen in a real war. Guess what, governments put controversial legislation up and it gets voted on. It happens. Just because it affects one gender doesn’t mean they’re waging a war on you. Look at the amount of funding that is spent on strictly women’s health. Look at VAWA. There are plenty of benefits for women ingrained in the system, and there is absolutely no reason to proclaim a “war on women” just because there are some laws in the works you oppose.

As a note, relax about the fucking downvote. When I posted this you had 1, it’s not a big deal. We get trolled regularly here (war on the MRM perhaps?), so we are all wary of questions like the ones you’re putting forward.

rightsbot · 2012-04-16T20:38:18+00:00

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themountaingoat · 2012-04-17T00:12:20+00:00

1) I am a proponent of gender equality, and that makes me an MRA, because the MRM is actually for gender equality, feminism isn't.

2) Other people have already answered this one.

3) Definitely. I am not against equality of the sexes, but feminism has never really been about equality. In the past both women and men had restrictive gender roles, and feminism came along and removed all the restrictions on the female role while strengthening the benefits. Today, almost all feminist advocacy today is anti-male. The right to not be vilified because of my gender by feminists is one of the most important MR issues for me.

4) I might be actively against the restrictions put on abortion but for several things. The issue often get's framed as a war on women by men, when it is really the people on the other side are at least half women. I am not likely to support you if you blame all men for the actions of republicans. There is also an incredible amount of dishonesty in the movement. The war of women rhetoric is ridiculous, and all the joking bills that try to outlaw vasectomies entirely miss the point, and are just feminists blaming men for the actions of republicans, or taking the actions of republicans out on men. Finally, there is a MR idea called legal paternity surrender, which is basically that a man should be able to opt out of the financial consequences of pregnancy during the period where a woman can have an abortion. Feminist commonly advocate against this by saying "He made his choice when he had sex". Well, if they are okay with men being forced into fatherhood if they had sex, I can't really bring myself to care very much if women are forced into motherhood.

SpeakToTheSky · 2012-04-17T02:03:27+00:00

Cool beans. But you have to be willing to challenge Feminism as a female supremacist movement.
See this video, and the links it cites http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IMkDEe8ypfU&list=UUzIjg5vIfBGcdyLWu6lhXxw&index=5&feature=plcp
Feminism is a female supremacist movement. Mainstream feminists are undoubtedly in complete denial about this. But most of Feminism's greatest victories in the past few decades are promoting female supremacy, rather than equality.
Yes, men's rights are being ignored by the repub party. But the Democrat party is wholly dedicated to promoting Female privilege. So it comes down to a choice between dumb and dumber.

AntiFeministMedia · 2012-04-16T21:59:18+00:00

I've got two conflicting positions:

A: I understand how the world works, and that means how institutions work, how people work (both male and female), why there's a need for religion, why there's a need for mother at home (not working) while children are young, the female vote (sometimes I think they shouldnt have one). Any deviation from this more traditionalist line leads to failure of society.

OR

B: Women dragged kicking and screaming into the twenty-first century. Equal rights with equal responsibilities and accountablility. Women brought out into the light, and forced to behave through the law, and increased male awareness of our situation in regard to women.

The problem with this is, can women rise to it?

also, its going to take a massive effort to reveal and hammer home womens true nature to men, and we need to reform the law, and if we go down this road, society is going to get a hell of a lot worse before it gets better.

.

I think we need to do B, and continue with this current examination of women, however destructive it is.

Besides, we're on this road now, there's no turning back.

EricTheHalibut · 2012-04-16T22:15:25+00:00

1) Gender neutrality? that we should avoid gender identification at all? I don't understand. Gender equality I understand--men, their rights and nothing more; women, their rights and nothing less.

2) Others have helped with the wage gap mythology stuff; basically, if you take a single, childless male in one occupation and compare him with a similarly-placed single childless female, the wage gap disappears. The reason for the gap is children; whether women are choosing to take flextime and time off for children, or whether they are being subtly forced out of running for top offices because they have children, is still up for debate in my mind.

3) Feminism has never been about equality between the sexes. Feminism has advocated for equality between the sexes, by which feminists mean destroying patriarchy, the perceived privileges that men hold in society just for being men. Patriarchic privilege has never been proven in statistical analyses of randomized sets of men and women, beyond the perceived "wage gap" that might be due to ingrained gender stereotypes which had been preferable in generations past. Say what you will nowadays about stay-at-home moms, but in generations past, only one income was needed to carry a whole household. Men were better workhorses/more disposable, and women had to carry the babies to term, which didn't quite suit working in coal mines. Instant gender roles. Patriarchy? Try efficient resource allocation.

4) The "war on women" is being fought largely by men for women, not against women; politicians know that their largest voting blocs are white, midwestern socially conservative women. Those women overwhelmingly oppose abortion, gay marriage, and drug legalization. Both parties must play the piper's tune to get votes. Not really that hard to understand.

Title	Just some questions
Author	KAMalosh
Upvotes	6
Comments	41
Date	April 16, 2012 8:37 PM UTC (14 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/scyqz/just_some_questions/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/just-some-questions.1023845 https://theredarchive.com/post/1023845

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