Men' s Rights Questioned

Marty-the-monkey · 2022-06-05T07:16:22+00:00

In general I find if weird when people want to make this subject into a competition of misery.

Punder_man · 2022-06-05T07:36:15+00:00

Same thing applied to men, many men did not have a choice on where they worked and often were conscripted to fight in wars with no choice.
Even now male nurses, pre-school / school teachers are rare because of the social stigma around men in those jobs (Often from women)
99% of Millionaire's / Billionaire's are Men, 99% of men are NOT Million / Billionaire's (Apex fallacy)
In many Eastern and Western countries boys are circumcised without consent, forced to sign up to be conscripted into the army if they want to vote or drive a car or get a student load.
A majority of scholarships are for women only despite women out representing men at universities
There are more women in the world than men and yet they also vote for men to represent their countries. New Zealand has had 3 women lead the country as Prime Minister.. in the last 2 decades
Also, the United Nations (UN) has entire agendas about promoting / protecting 'women's rights' but has no intention on protecting / promoting men's rights.
The UN outlawed Female Circumcision, classifying it as Female Genital Mutilation but has done NOTHING about Male Circumcision.

Yes, women do have legitimate issues that need fighting for but women aren't as universally oppressed as he wants you to believe.

3DemocracyActivist · 2022-06-05T11:07:55+00:00

Ask him to name even one country that imprisons more women than men, ask him to name even one country that executes more women than men.

Is there any country that historically or in the present had / has female only life sentences (Russia only sentences men to life) is there any country historically or in the present that had / has female only death penalty (Belarus has male only death penalty) is there any country, historically or in the present, that only tortures women? (Guantanamo bay, where is the female reverse of this?)

Torture, life imprisonment and death penalty are the ultimate forms of oppression. Name me one country where only women face these things, or even are more likely to face these things statistically than men?

Every country is more likely to imprison males, and you can't get less free than a prisoner. The country with the highest female prison population appears to be Hong Kong (still with far less than half of prisoners being female based on these statistics

https://www.statista.com/statistics/445672/countries-with-the-largest-share-of-female-prisoners/ )

So your friend is incorrect. Every country appears to discriminate against men either very bluntly, in severe ways like USA, England, Belarus and Russia, or statistically they simply are more likely to punish men. This isn't the average man or woman's fault, women didn't democratically vote to discriminate against men, no public from what I can tell has voted to discriminate against men, instead, dictatorial governments come along and implement misandrist laws and policies without even asking the public to vote on these laws and double standards. Misandry is implemented in a dictatorial manner by the misandrist men and women in power. In England misandry is enforced in a dictatorial manner, not in a democratic manner, I don't think it would be enforced In a democratic manner, I'd assume the same is the case elsewhere. Misandry is a global problem and requires global solutions. Such as total equalisation of all rights, laws and punishments worldwide.

darkuen · 2022-06-05T07:52:03+00:00

Tell your friend none of those are counter points for mens rights. There are very few areas where being an advocate of women’s rights comes in direct conflict of supporting men’s rights.

You can concede all of those points while still recognizing that men

take up the vast majority of the workforce for all the worst jobs,
make up more of the homeless population while getting almost no help in comparison to women,
are for almost all nations the only ones subjected to military draft,
are subjected to genital mutilation on a much larger scale than women,
are biased against in family court, especially in regard to custody.

In fact the only area I can think of atm for the feminist movement wherein belief comes within direct contention of men’s rights would be the “me too” movement. With its toxic “believe all women” slogan in regards to sexual assault directly turns into “don’t believe all men”.

2022-06-05T08:37:10+00:00

Just because you observe a difference between men and women doesn't mean that this is caused by discrimination.

Go look at youtube videos from hobbyists. Notice the clear gender differences in arts & crafts, cooking, sewing, woodwork, electronics, model trains. Nobody is stopping people from picking a hobby they like, buying the equipment, and posting a video on youtube.

dw87190 · 2022-06-05T07:56:56+00:00

None of these four things give the supremacist madwomen any justification for their hate and hateful acts against us. Furthermore, has he been to Australia? "Little privileges" is an understatement. They define privilege in this shell of a nation

rahsoft · 2022-06-06T07:32:48+00:00

In many parts of the world, women do face heavy restrictions to their
individual freedoms. This does not happen only in Muslim- majority
Countries

muslim majority countries give privileges to muslim women such as not having to work if they are married, or their father has the legal responsibility for them until they are married.

mother also have automatic custody and alimony in divorce.

women have acknowledgment of domestic violence as victims , men don't

women don't have fgm( unless its cultural) men have mgm and they call it religion..

many of the issues you see in muslim majority countries in regards to women are cultural rather than religious such as the driving issue.

many of these points above have already being raised by karen strughan( girl writes what) and i would suggest that your polish friend tries living in muslim majority countries as a muslim( like i did)

JoeNScott · 2022-06-05T18:53:39+00:00

There's zero contradiction between saying women should not be discriminated against in some areas for being women and men should not be discriminated against for being men in others. Both are wrong.

63daddy · 2022-06-05T20:18:32+00:00

So many problems with this logic, here’s a few:

What may or may not have been the case 50 years ago, is not an example of something still happening.

Men and women making different choices is not discrimination. A few billionaires have nothing to do with most men.

None of these things are reasons why men should not have equal rights.

rahsoft · 2022-06-06T07:37:43+00:00

sorry

wanted to add one thing since your friend is polish( EU).

ask him to name one , just one right that men have and women don't.

plenty of people here in the past have named rights women have that men don't

OnThatSigmaGrindset · 2022-06-05T12:09:46+00:00

Until rather recently (50 years ago) women’ s access to the Job market was limited. Until the 50s , for instance, a woman wearing the robe of a judge was rare. Even a women consecrated as pastor was rare.So was their socio- economic power scarce.

not anymore

Even now, millionaire and billionaire women are rare.

because they usually go for low-paying jobs instead. right now, there's nothing in this western world that is stopping them from picking a c-suite position or taking up a high paying job.

In many parts of the world, women do face heavy restrictions to their individual freedoms. This does not happen only in Muslim- majority Countries

that happens only in muslim majority countries. (unless your friend is talking about abortion)

Among world leaders, women are far from representing the 50%. Elected national leaders are still mainly men.

if they ran for president and actually put up a good campaign, then things would be much different.

your friend isn't really that smart, is he

majestic_tapir · 2022-06-05T21:19:50+00:00

All of those points are accurate, but they aren't a counter-point to mens rights.

1: Yup. Men have had a bit more freedom in job options for some time, but that's also because for a very long time a lot of the jobs that were up were manual labour, which was quite intense, and with a lack of automated tools women mostly weren't able to keep up. There was no excuse for not having female judges and such, that was mostly down to keeping women out of higher education - something which has now been remedied.
2: See above note about higher education. A lot of those millionaire/billionaire men come from money, and those men profited from the education that women were denied access. We'll most likely see a shift over the next couple of decades, however the fact that women are the ones giving birth puts an immediate hurdle for them to get over, as being out of the job market for a set amount of time is difficult. Not unachievable, but very difficult. Additionally, whilst men do make up a large amount of millionaires/billionaires, they are the 1%. Most men are in a worse financial state than most women.
3: Yes, it's disgusting and a very valid point, however as a brit there's only so much influence I can have in other countries, I can protest and I can speak up for them, but there are cultural issues that they need to get past.
4: This is actually a big one. I'm actually an advocate for true representation at political level, but i'm also conscious that this could be a slippery slope. 50% men and 50% women seems a good ratio, but then would you also want 3% of the total to be black (UK)? There's nothing wrong with that as a target, but is there a risk that black-specific issues won't be addressed due to lack of representation? Should it be higher than 3%? Should there not be a cap, not be a minimum, etc? All we can really do here, in my opinion, is to elect people who have the will of all constituents in their minds, and fight for all of them equally. Perhaps smarter brains than mine have better ideas.

Ultimately, it comes down to the fact that women and men face discrimination in different ways. For the 4 points you've raised, I could raise about 20 male-specific issues without thinking for very long, and I could probably raise another 20 female-specific issues without thinking for very long. Some will overlap, some won't. Fighting for one side doesn't mean going up against the other side, you can actually fight for true equality.

g1455ofwater · 2022-06-05T08:47:16+00:00

Women live longer than men and life expectancy is a better measure of gender advantage than any of those points.

Ptoney1 · 2022-06-05T08:53:03+00:00

If I could get a free ride just cuz of my nice peen and ass, then things would be equal. But I can’t.

dependency_injector · 2022-06-06T07:23:18+00:00

Something is really missing between his points and the conclusion (which is I suppose "advocating men's rights is wrong")

Yowilkat · 2022-06-05T20:37:38+00:00

Given the choice to vote for a woman in office or a man, most women choose men. Most countries have a larger female voting base (the us, for example, has about 5 million more women, i believe).

TextDependent6779 · 2022-06-07T00:25:41+00:00

people have already voiced a lot of my thoughts, so I'll skip repeats.

there's no one who was just handing out free advantages to million/billionaire men. Most of them got where they are today through a mixture of things like hard work and determination. they weren't simply given their millions. so, what's your solution?

if you give them free things to support the numbers of successful women, why didn't the men get free things? good luck framing that as patriarchy.

you really want 50% representation based off physical characteristics? gender, race, sexual orientation? do we need to add other things as well, or just protected characteristics? what about when representation of protected groups exceeds 50%? do we discriminate against them to achieve 50% for whites/men/straight? do we leave them exceeding unprotected groups? does it need to be exactly 50%?

don't get me wrong, I'd be happy to see a bit more representation, particularly from people who can share whats its like to "live as an x peorson". i just don't care for the idea of prioritising representation over merit. i also don't think representation will happen 'naturally', at least not in our lifetimes, so if you're going to push for representation you need to be proactive.

ImaginaryWall840 · 2022-06-09T10:33:54+00:00

Don't listen to Polish men. Simple.

HikuroMishiro · 2022-06-10T03:31:02+00:00

Your "friend" is an idiot if he thinks any of those are counter points to men's rights.

Most cultures in history have had different gender roles for men and women. The modern take is that 'women were oppressed' when in reality both or neither were. Just because two people are treated differently doesn't mean one is superior and the other inferior, both being a man and being a woman in various cultures in history came with pros and cons. While women may have historically less access to the job market, they have also historically controlled the purse and thus had more socio-economic power. Regardless this is an outdated point as not only do women have full access to the job market these days, they actually have an advantage and is in fact a point for men's rights.
Apex fallacy. Men and women tend to pursue different things and make different decisions, the result of that being men more likely to becoming wealthy based on their own merits. Also despite men being disproportionately at the top, thanks to government programs/safety nets/etc. only for women; men are also disproportionately at the bottom. And to lean slightly into your third point, some of the current ultra wealthy come from areas (like the oil rich middle east) where either women's rights are still slightly restricted or attained such rights more recently creating a lingering wealth lag; regardless that has nothing to do with how easy it is for a man vs woman to become wealthy in a place like the US.
In very few parts of the world do women face such restrictions, and to the best of my knowledge they are quite likely to be Muslim majority countries (though that's a bit off topic I think). If your "friend" would like to tell us what countries and how they're restricted I'm sure we'd like to read it. In fact in most of the world men actually face more restrictions than women do. The idea that in some dark armpit of the world women are still vaguely oppressed is no counterpoint to men's rights.
Apex fallacy again. Women are usually a larger population in most democracies and the fact that they choose to elect men is by no means a counterpoint to men's rights. In fact one could argue the opposite, that men are oppressed by the sheer fact that there are more women voters. That wouldn't be a great argument, but its better than the idea that women are oppressed because there are more men elected to office. Women are as likely (if not more so) to be elected if the run for office. The simple fact is that fewer women run for office, so fewer women end up there. However even if the ratio was 50/50 or no women were in office at all, that still wouldn't be a counterpoint to men's rights.

Well, your "friend" would be wrong. There are countries that have different gender roles and responsibilities and various people are of course discriminated against for various reasons, but as a general statement women aren't 'discriminated against' except in some backwater third world countries that nobody cares about (certainly not feminists). In the first world women have more privileges and "the whole picture in this world" is tilted against men as it has always been.

Title	Men' s Rights Questioned
Author	JakkoMakacco
Upvotes	4
Comments	26
Date	June 5, 2022 6:55 AM UTC (4 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/v57v91/men_s_rights_questioned/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/men-s-rights-questioned.1117177 https://theredarchive.com/post/1117177

Comments