PatriarchWalk | MensRights

ignatiusloyola · 2011-10-23T00:11:00+00:00

I had a funny thought occur to me (at least I thought it was funny). What about making a PatriarchWalk similar to the SlutWalk, where men protest being told...

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No it wouldn't. SlutWalk does not disapprove of all things male at all. It has nothing to do with men in general, just a lot of sick fucks (both male and female) who feel that your clothing, or the fact that you're a woman makes you ripe for the raping. And Patriarch is a very loaded term for so many people. The best response is none at all. Its not needed because no counter male reaction is needed. What is needed, in my humble opinion, is a separate or joint effort to bring attention to sexual abuse against men. Adult men don't tend to report sexual assault. If its by a woman then "dude, that's awesome." If its via man "You're a fag." This is a level of victim shaming I find to be sickening. Men should be able to speak freely about issues of male sexual assault. Start that march. That march could be a game changer for everyone.

[–]ignatiusloyola[S] 5 points6 points7 points 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]ghebert001 5 points6 points7 points 14 years ago (39 children) | Copy Link

I think the true goal of slutwalks is to keep propagating the 1 in 4 canard as well as paint all men as "potential rapists", not to mention the fact that this started all because a cop issued a statement saying that women MAY lower their chances of sexual assault if they didn't dress like sluts. If you interpret that as "dress like a slut = will automatically get raped" then you're missing the point entirely. The cop was simply saying not to bring attention to yourself if it's not necessary.

Leaving your house door wide open and leaving for a the week may not necessarily mean you will get robbed, but that open door is certainly a clear sign to anyone who may be inclined to rob someone that "hey, this looks like an easy target". Just as someone wearing a short skirt may seem like an easy target as opposed to someone wearing a pair of jeans.

Locking your doors and wearing jeans won't guarantee safety, but at least it's some sort of prevention method as opposed to letting it all hang out and hoping for the best. If someone reminds me to lock my doors, I would thank them...if someone gives you advice on how not to be an easy target, YOU THANK THEM.

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As to your response: Our bodies should never be compared to an object. To be robbed is wrong. To have our bodies wronged exists on a whole other plane.

Shouldn't that mean we should all have a greater sense of personal responsibility for keeping our bodies safe from harm?

As to your troll accusation...um...okay. My user history screams troll? And I'm not a girlwriteswhat? You have to know this isn't the first time I've been accused of not being female.

Gender issues interest me. I find them important, and I think men's and boys' issues are arguably the more important at the moment. I tend to surf the funny shit with my bf while lying with my head on his shoulder and his laptop propped on his chest, but I don't bother commenting. Why would I? It's a waste of time, adding to meaningless chatter on irrelevant topics.

Would you call a feminist a troll because she sticks to women's and feminist boards, with the occasional foray onto a men's subreddit, and doesn't bother commenting on r/flyfishing (if that exists)? Would you characterize Dr. Ruth as a troll because all she seems to want to talk about in public is sex? I'm having a hard time crediting the level of idiocy inherent in your assumptions.

[+]bigface614 -10 points-9 points-8 points 14 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

Dude, you've posted to three specific reddits almost exclusively. Sorry if I made a false accusation, but these are the only reddits you've posted to. Gender issues interest me as well and I've posted to many other subreddits that have nothing to do with gender. Its highly suspect. And its not an "occasional foray." I have, in my previous post, mentioned almost every board you have posted on.

I am a great admirer or Dr. Ruth. Her open dialogue about sex has done much more society. You are not Dr. Ruth. You're a person with a suspicious user history.

You have almost no history on feminist or female oriented boards. Just a few scant posts. Most are on male oriented boards, as a supposed female user.

As a note; You don't need to post on female oriented boards to be a woman, but the fact that you purport to be a woman and almost never post on a non male board is suspect. Once again, I apologize if I have indeed accused you of something you are not guilty of. You just look like a troll.

Edit: Much more society is not a thing. Much for society, is what I meant.

[–]girlwriteswhat 9 points10 points11 points 14 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

I adore Dr. Ruth. I also adore Dan Savage (if you don't read him, you should, as should everybody).

I tried commenting on feminist boards. Most of my comments were deleted, because I'm not a feminist and never have been, and they could absolutely tell that from the opinions I have. I comment every once in a while on 2xc, but most of the discussion there is girl talk, and other than the hour a day I spend on the phone with my best friend, I don't do girl talk. I have a blog on gender equality that is decidedly anti-feminist, two of my personal heroes are Christina Hoff Sommers and Warren Farrell (who's actually a really cool, encouraging guy).

I'm not a troll. I'm a woman who is passionate about equality--including equality for women, which is something I believe feminism has departed from. I have two sons and a daughter, and it's my sons I'm worried about. Their lives are important to me, and important to them, and I see nothing but success in my daughter's future and nothing but landmines in my sons'. I'm a very focussed person, and I have enough in my life to distract me without wasting time playing video games or commenting on r/howtocookfajitas. I work, I look after my kids, I have an awesome man in my life who deserves my attention and affection, I have a house I'm renovating, and I have extended family and friends who place demands on my time and energy. If I'm going to waste my time online, I'm going to "waste" it doing something productive.

If I were a troll, if I had the time for that nonsense, I'd be trolling all over god's green acre. But I'm an advocate, weighing whether I can afford the investment of becoming an activist. I concentrate on that when I'm on my computer.

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I'll agree with the 2XC. I have no interest in nail polish or no heat curls, or what I learned about lipstick, or "I feel fat, tell me I'm not fat" shit. Trust me. I'm a serious woman. I have money to make for my parents and families future. I believe in rights for men as well. One of the most important is men speaking out about abuse against them. It is an ignored issue.

I think you're being reactionary when you say you see nothing but "landmines" for your son. My 2 nephews, who's day to day life I am greatly involved in, have nothing but the world open to them because they are smart and study hard. And if something gets in their way it will not be woman's rights. It will be a system that does not give education the credit it is due. Or the funding it needs. And trolls do not go over gods green acre's. They choose a few boards and sit.

I worry about personal safety for both genders as accounts of stranger to male rape rise. I worry about anyone's future these days.

My original response: you seem to want your sons to live a free life, unencumbered by needless worry. That's fair. But your daughters should have the same. They should not have to worry about wearing a short shirt. Sometimes that's fun. They should not have any fear when taking a beer at a party (and they will) and wonder who put what in it. Neither should your boys. If you think SlutWalk is just a woman's issue you are silly. Rape is something all people can fall victim to.

[–]girlwriteswhat 8 points9 points10 points 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I don't think rape is just a woman's issue. I do think slutwalk is ridiculous.

I think you are being blind when you see nothing but the world open to your nephews. I'm a low-income parent. My daughter--if she keeps her marks as high as they are for the next year and a half and goes into a STEM field (where she's gifted)--will qualify for over $15,000 in scholarships. My son? He has higher marks than she does, and he'll get about $3500 for university. If he goes into a STEM field, he will likely struggle to find employment, while companies will be tripping over each other to court my daughter.

My daughter will have 100% power of decision as to when she becomes a mother. My sons will not be so lucky if they make the mistake of getting a girl pregnant. My daughter will have a choice as to whether she wants to work full time, part time, or not at all once she gets married. My boys will not enjoy that same level of choice. My daughter is supposed to have no expectation placed on her at all to keep herself safe from harm in the context of her sexual and personal freedom. My sons will be expected to keep the women they have sex with safe from harm, even if the word "no" never passes those women's lips, even if they drank voluntarily and even if they initiated the sex.

If my daughter is raped, once the event is over she will have a crap-ton of agency and power of decision as to how she can deal with it, and an entire industry of people whose job it is to help her recover. If my sons are accused, they will lose their agency altogether and be carried by events and by an entire industry whose job it is to strip them of that agency for years if it can.

My sons stand a greater chance of having a spouse initiate a divorce, a greater chance of losing big financially in that divorce, a greater chance of losing custody of or access to their children, and a greater risk of criminal sanctions if they fail to pay maintenance for those children. My sons have a lower life expectancy than my daughter, yet funding for the diseases that affect men are orders of magnitude smaller than for women's diseases. They will pay higher taxes than women, will earn less while they are single and childless, will likely work longer hours all their lives than their partners and leave their retirement savings to those partners who will most likely outlive them.

If their marriages aren't working, my daughter will be told to do what is best for her because that is the important thing, while my sons will be told to try harder.

If my daughter is battered by her husband, she has no end of help available to her. If my sons are battered by their wives, the system--at best--will abandon them. At worst, it will find them culpable and they will be the ones arrested. If my daughter is killed by her husband, he'll be seen as a monster. If my sons are killed by their wives, they'll be cast as batterers who deserved what they had coming.

You may be a serious woman, but you're asleep to a lot of issues out there.

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right now, the traits men reinforce in each other are all negative

Traits men reinforce in each other are overwhelmingly negative to the point where any benefits are negated by the negatives, yes.

and so they should get rid of all sense of maleness ("getting rid of masculinity"

Masculinity does not mean "maleness", it is an umbrella term for traits conventionally associated with being a man. Maybe I didn't emphasize that distinction enough before.

You're a feminist (notice I didn't say "woman," because I'm a woman and I seem to be doing fine here)

If you called me a woman you'd be incorrect anyway, as I am a man. So I actually do know what it's like to be pressured towards traditionally masculine things, which is how I know it's negative. I probably have a much better concept of the pressures that men(young, developing men especially) are under than you do. I have my own degree of insight into this.

you presumed to dictate to them what masculinity is or should be

I already know what masculinity is or is supposed to be. Hell, some of your members agreed with my "dictations".

[–]Alanna1 point 14 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Traits men reinforce in each other are overwhelmingly negative to the point where any benefits are negated by the negatives, yes.

I guess if you cherry pick groups of the biggest jerks and douches you can find, sure. The men I know are, by and large, funny, considerate ("gentlemanly"), honest (they tell me straight, even if it's uncomfortable), and reliable (they don't flake out on me). They're problem solvers, and reality checkers.

I guess if all you want to see is PUAs and assholes, that's all you'll see.

Masculinity does not mean "maleness", it is an umbrella term for traits conventionally associated with being a man. Maybe I didn't emphasize that distinction enough before.

Masculinity means of or pertaining to men or maleness. It can also be used to describe "stereotypical" male traits, which I think is how you're using it. But that's not the only definition, and it's not the one we're using here.

But even if we were, that's not any better. We should say that men who are strong, unfrilly, stoic, problem-solver types should be made to feel less male? That's not cool, any more than telling a woman who likes keeping house and taking care of her kids that she's less of a woman than a career type.

So I actually do know what it's like to be pressured towards traditionally masculine things, which is how I know it's negative.

Sure, and I can tell you all about pressure I've had towards feminine things. We get all kinds of pressure in our lives, some of it good, some of it bad; it's up to us-- each of us, individually, regardless of gender-- to what's right, both morally/ethically and for us as individuals.

I probably have a much better concept of the pressures that men(young, developing men especially) are under than you do. I have my own degree of insight into this.

I'm not trying to deny your experience. But it's just that, your experience. It's not the experience of every man, or even necessarily most men. My statement that it's not up to you to define masculinity for other men stands.

I already know what masculinity is or is supposed to be. Hell, some of your members agreed with my "dictations".

Because some of your points were right in some measure for some men some of the time. No one argues, for example, that men can't be aggressive. But so can women. And lots of men aren't aggressive. We agree with you to the extent that currently, that does make them "less masculine" in the eyes of most of society, but we're saying it doesn't make them less masculine in reality and that we'd like to bring society into line with reality.

[–][deleted]1 point 14 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

We agree with you to the extent that currently, that does make them "less masculine" in the eyes of most of society, but we're saying it doesn't make them less masculine in reality and that we'd like to bring society into line with reality.

But that's exactly the point I was trying to make. The way it seems the OP phrased it they were trying to reinforce previously existing notions of masculinity. That why I said you should aim to redefine masculinity, not reinforce what it already is.

We should say that men who are strong, unfrilly, stoic, problem-solver types should be made to feel less male? That's not cool, any more than telling a woman who likes keeping house and taking care of her kids that she's less of a woman than a career type.

No, we should be saying that those who AREN'T the "strong, unfrilly, stoic, problem-solver types" shouldn't be made to feel less male. Everyone suffers at the hands of the reinforcement of that stereotype, even the men who are "strong, unfrilly, stoic, problem-solver types" because they're going to feel pressured to remain in that role. I have a very close friend who was in that position from basically the time he was 14 on, and now at 28 he's on the verge of suicide because it has broken him.

The men I know are, by and large, funny, considerate ("gentlemanly"), honest (they tell me straight, even if it's uncomfortable), and reliable (they don't flake out on me). They're problem solvers, and reality checkers.

The women I know are like that as well. Are you saying they're masculine?

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Conventional views of masculinity aren't all negative. What's negative about heroism? That's a traditionally masculine quality. Self-sacrifice? I see nothing harmful to women in that aspect of traditional masculinity. Responsibility? Again, women only gain from that--in fact, I keep seeing pieces in the media, many written by feminists--lamenting men's recent shedding of a masculine sense of responsibility.

Ambition, drive, achievement, where's the negative here? If these qualities are negative then why are feminists encouraging women to embrace them?

And aggression and aggressive sexuality? Wow, feminists seem to think these qualities are progressive in women (Xena, Warrior Princess was a pop culture feminist icon after all), yet signs of a knuckle-dragger in men. And I'll bet dollars to donuts that on a hiking trail in the woods, confronted by a bear, even feminists would find a new appreciation for male aggression.

Feminists don't want to deconstruct masculinity. They want to reconstruct it.

[–][deleted]2 points 14 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Conventional views of masculinity aren't all negative. What's negative about heroism? That's a traditionally masculine quality. Self-sacrifice? I see nothing harmful to women in that aspect of traditional masculinity. Responsibility? Again, women only gain from that

Why are these only masculine things? Why can these things not be considered feminine? Only men can be heroic or responsible? Why do these qualities have to be masculine and hence, primarily attributed to men?

I keep seeing pieces in the media, many written by feminists--lamenting men's recent shedding of a masculine sense of responsibility.

Stop this. If you want to have a conversation, stop throwing absolute bullshit like this in there. Sarah Palin called herself a feminist. Enough said.

And I'll bet dollars to donuts that on a hiking trail in the woods, confronted by a bear, even feminists would find a new appreciation for male aggression.

Is this a serious hypothetical? Because depending on the kind of bear, the bear would probably run away regardless of aggression. You could get unlucky and run into a mother bear with a cub, in which case "male aggression" would get you fucking mauled.

[–]girlwriteswhat2 points 14 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Actually, it depends entirely on the species of bear, the time of year, and how healthy the bear is. Early in the spring, they can be hungry enough, and blind enough from sleeping all winter, to see you as food, in which case, you have to fight back.

And male aggression--if it did precipitate a mauling (which is likely to happen no matter what if you come between a mother and her cubs)--would result in the aggressive one being mauled.

You ever wonder why these traits evolved in males? Maybe because they're necessary? Less necessary in today's world, for sure, and something that could always be misdirected or unhealthy, but it wouldn't exist as a common trait in men if it didn't serve a useful purpose.

As to your question "why are these only masculine things?" To understand that, you have to look at the dynamic wrt flow of resources and protection throughout most of history, even in cultures where women played a large part in acquiring resources. Man protects/provides for woman, who protects/provides for children. Men who did not embody those three qualities would not find partners, because these were qualities women insisted on. It was preferable to both women and to evolutionary forces that men be self-sacrificing, heroic and responsible, and that women be self-interested (that is, looking for the best situation for their children) and not risk their lives if there was someone else who'd do it for them.

Women can certainly be heroic, however, women who are heroic often aren't very successful in passing on their genes--they're more likely to die before reproducing, or die after having children at which point the chances of survival of those kids are much lower. It is in children's evolutionary best interest for their mother to allow a man to sacrifice himself for her, rather than for her to sacrifice herself.

The traits are masculine not only because they are perhaps more common in men simply due to genetics (and socialization), but because these are traits women want in men. Ask a man what he wants in a wife, and I seriously doubt "someone who puts her life on the line for others" is going to be a priority. It may even be a strike against her. Why would he want a partner who's likely to die and leave his children orphaned? While a woman would be more likely to think, "If he does this for others, he'll do this for me and the kids if necessary".

Edit: grammar/clarity

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I'm being completely sincere and not trolly right now and I just don't understand at all.

This is me giving you the benefit of the doubt, even though you're from SRS and it's against my better judgment, and attempting to explain (as I understand it).

It's because "masculine" simply means of or pertaining to men or maleness. It means different things to different people and different cultures at different times and the definition of it is extremely fluid and subjective. So you are essentially telling all these men (I'm a woman, but I can certainly see where it could be insulting) that their maleness is inherently bad. You choose to narrowly define masculinity (as negative traits), but you miss that the issue isn't masculinity, it's the defining of it, by you and others like you. You can't get rid of something by reinforcing it constantly.

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Title	PatriarchWalk
Author	ignatiusloyola
Upvotes	6
Comments	138
Date	October 23, 2011 12:11 AM UTC (14 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/llimg/patriarchwalk/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/patriarchwalk.1032729 https://theredarchive.com/post/1032729

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