Study: We're Less Likely to Recognize Symptoms of Depression in Men

[–]runningjumprex 43 points44 points45 points 13 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]LupoBorracio 13 points14 points15 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

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[–]independence21 10 points11 points12 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]theskepticalidealist 24 points25 points26 points 13 years ago* (45 children) | Copy Link

I never understand this. The first thing the article says is... "We know that depression is much more common in women than men....".... HOW do they know that its more common in women? Thats what the statistics say only because they are going by whats reported. If men dont go and report it AND we find it harder to recognise, then clearly it could be even worse and does appear to be when around 80% of suicides are men. [1]

Also studies have been done that show women are highly biased, around 5 times more biased, toward women and even that men are more likely to be biased toward women[2][3][4] . Other studies again show that women are biased toward women, men are more likely to be indifferent.[5] This study on depression just shows one of the consequences of that is in the real world. Sad really.

sources: [1] http://www.afsp.org/index.cfm?page_id=04ECB949-C3D9-5FFA-DA9C65C381BAAEC0 [2] http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15491274 [3] https://news.uns.purdue.edu/html4ever/2004/041213.Goodwin.gender.html [4] http://www.apa.org/monitor/dec04/women.aspx [5] http://preview.tinyurl.com/cnv9klp

[–][deleted] -1 points0 points1 point 13 years ago* (43 children) | Copy Link

[–]theskepticalidealist 6 points7 points8 points 13 years ago* (42 children) | Copy Link

And yet 80% of suicides are men, but apparently are not talking about it. The implication is always that men arent more depressed, they are just more violent (choosing more violent means of suicide). They dont need more help, because you cant stop men being violent. It couldnt be that men are more likely to say there's nothing wrong, or to upsell (minimise) their happiness even to themselves, even on a survey could it? A man saying he is depressed/unhappy with his life, even to himself, is to admit so many things. He is useless as a romantic partner, he is useless as a man, and maybe also useless to society. This is a big step and doing so is far worse than the implication for a girl admitting these things, especially as there is a social system set up to help girls and programs to help women. It also doesnt help that men are seen as predators and violent in society unworthy of support compared with women. Ive been depressed before and in many ways I still am and even I dont even want to admit the extremity of it because of how much work its taken to get over it before. So believe me even when you're depressed you can be in denial for a long time. You also get to the stage where you want to "cry for help" long before you'll consider literally killing yourself. Dead bodies cant be ignored, and the fact that men actually kill themselves successfully more than women by around 80%, points more to how men see no way out and how much more depressed men are in surveys and in other reports. I highly doubt the reports conclusions.

[–][deleted] -2 points-1 points0 points 13 years ago (41 children) | Copy Link

[–]theskepticalidealist 8 points9 points10 points 13 years ago* (40 children) | Copy Link

They are not just lying to a computer, they are lying to themselves, as I said. But you cant ignore dead bodies, around 80% of suicides are men. I used to work in market research I know how these things are done. EDIT: This is how a general survey works. You'll get dozens and dozens of questions like this for example... So regarding being single/your job/your friends etc... it will then ask how you feel about each one. If you are extremely sad, very sad, sad, neither sad nor happy, happy, very happy, extremely happy. Or it will use other words like "satisfied" rather than happy or sad. It only takes women to be more likely move one more step over to the more extreme "unhappy" side than males will to conclude that women are more unhappy than men, but this would be a false interpretation because it doesnt take into account all the reasons why men are less likely to accept even to themselves that they are more depressed than they are.

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[–]theskepticalidealist 2 points3 points4 points 13 years ago* (38 children) | Copy Link

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[–]theskepticalidealist -1 points0 points1 point 13 years ago* (36 children) | Copy Link

Its pure conjecture that you're assuming that someone wouldnt take the test if they weren't going to lie to himself or minimise their own symptoms. It is at least equally valid to think they would be MORE likely to take it because formally putting it down on paper or inputting it into a computer would actually help with deluding themselves they are happier than they are. (well, its its on a computer its more likely true, thats official). Ive been depressed and thats the kind of fucked up way you can think. I simply fundamentally disagree with their methodology to prove what they think they can prove. As I said, admitting you are depressed has much worse consequences for a man. Also there is a myth that men are hypochondriacs, so assume this is backwards and men would over-report symptoms. eg "Man-flu". But it is women you see all the time in doctors offices, not men and its also, though strangely contradictorily uncontroversial, well understood that men dont bother going to the doctor. Women are trained to notice when they are sick and feel unwell from a very early age. All these things are not taken into account in such studies. The data just cannot be used this way. As I say though, you cant argue with dead bodies... 80% of males are killing themselves and to explain that away is very hard if you want to say that women are more depressed.

[+]stoonedjesus 13 years ago* [recovered] (1 child) | Copy Link

As I said, admitting you are depressed has much worse consequences for a man.

not really. ostracism is terrible obviously, but that just means men will refuse to seek treatment. there are no "consequences"

Also there is a myth that men are hypochondriacs

I have never heard this.

Women are trained to notice when they are sick and feel unwell from a very early age.

and you weren't?!?! lol wat

[–]theskepticalidealist1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

You have never heard of the concept of man-flu? Get out more or open your eyes. If a man is ill he will get jokes made that say he is just being a hypochondriac ie."man-flu" . Also you claim men just as women are trained to notice when they are ill? Bullshit. Women from an early age are required to go for regular checkups at the doctor and then again for the rest of their lives for female specific issues, in fact my cousin who is a GP has also confirmed that women end up bringing up details of other symptoms they have while they are there, which makes sense as they are there anyway so why not. Then you have all the medical programs and funding designed specifically for women, again more cancer screenings for women, but not men etc. Even men that go to doctors are said to only be going much of the time because a women in their life told them to. You also say there are no "consequences" for admitting you're depressed. Uh sorry there is, in the way I pointed out. Depression is seen as weakness, weakness is a very unmasculine trait and therefore seen as unattractive. Weakness in a women is not seen that way. It is not the same. That is why a man is far more likely to bury his feelings and pretend he is happier than he is in order to avoid admitting to himself that he has a problem. Also lets just consider for a moment, if we are to accept that a women could kill themselves over something like domestic violence, despite all the resources available to women, then men are far more likely to do so seeing as women are just as violent (in fact they are more violent) in relationships, yet there is essentially no support at all and even the police are far more likely to assume they are the perpetrator or ignore the whole thing, even if he is the one with injuries and called the police. He also has to be careful to divorce a women, because she is far more likely to keep the kids, so he might be left choosing to stay in an abusive relationship to protect his kids or leaving his kids with an abusive mother. That sure could have something to do with the suicide stats as well.

[–][deleted] -2 points-1 points0 points 13 years ago (33 children) | Copy Link

[–]theskepticalidealist0 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Sorry yes that is what I meant to write. But no, regarding your response. What does it matter if more women attempt suicide? I already told you that you get to the stage where you want to do something as a "cry for help" long before you actually lose all hope and want to LITERALLY want end your own life. Women have a large support network as I also already talked about and so a cry for help has a great chance of actually working. So the fact that women "attempt suicide" more means nothing. We know they are depressed to do so, but apparently not depressed enough to choose a method that will actually get them killed. If you want try and kill yourself and you dont choose a method where you actually have a high probability of death, then you probably didnt really want to or you lack intelligence to know better. Are we to believe that today women still dont realise that overdosing is far less likely to kill you than jumping off a high building or something? In 2010 STILL only 21% of suicides were women, its not just a bit off, its WAY off. No, they choose that method because they can still back out of it and/or someone can find them. They are not seriously trying to kill themselves. But if we are to assume that the women really do want to kill themselves just as much as men do, then we have to believe they are intellectually inferior and cant figure out how to do it. The option landed on by feminists in particular is that men arent more depressed they are just more violent. So any further investigation isnt needed, men are violent, that explains everything and actually women are more depressed anyway ... No. In the early 90s experts still didnt even believe it was possible for a women to sexually abuse their kids. Men are considered stronger emotionally than women, or more accurately that we have less emotions so we cant possibly have it worse than women (especially not with our privilege! /sarcasm). Women are considered the ones we have to worry about and we overlook things all the time to try and see it.

[–][deleted]0 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

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[–]johnmarkley0 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

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[–]johnmarkley1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

A few factors: There are obviously people who don't mean it in earnest but still attempted suicide as a result of depression or other mental illness.

Yes, obviously. Or as a means of receiving attention or sympathy, or in some cases as a way of manipulating or emotionally abusing others.

Yet you didn't consider the fact that some suicide attempts aren't motivated by an actual desire for death at all relevant when you claimed that there's no incongruity between the claim that women are more depressed and the fact that men are vastly more likely to kill themselves because, after all, women are more likely to attempt – or at least “attempt”-suicide.

Some methods of attempted suicide may be difficult to execute properly or unlikely to succeed. Ask a dozen people, and I doubt very many of them would be able to tell you how many pills (and what kind) it would take to kill yourself instead of just seriously damaging your liver.

Most people don't have a noose or handgun on their person 24/7, either, but plenty of people still kill themselves that way. This sort of information is hardly inaccessible to the average person, if they want it. Nor are materials to actually do it.
If it really is so damnably hard to die by poisoning, the fact that so many women favor it as a suicide method anyway merely brings us back to where we started: Either “suicide attempts” by women are far less likely to reflect a desire to actually die, in which case treating them as equivalent to actual male deaths by suicide for the purpose of comparing depression in men and women is grossly misleading, or the average suicidal woman is far less competent and intelligent than the average suicidal man.

Specific individuals trying and failing doesn't necessarily mean anything in isolation; someone who's generally competent can still screw up or just be lucky/unlucky. But the massive difference in competence between men and women as groups that would have to exist for “But women make more attempts!” to have the relevance you give it implies is not written off so easily.

I'm starting to find it weird that people keep characterizing the people who unsuccessfully attempt suicide the stupid ones.

Being able to identify an effective means to a desired end and successfully carrying it out requires more intelligence than trying to do so and failing. Whether or not the end is a good idea makes no difference.

But you already knew that, of course; you're merely trying to confuse the issue because your attempt to discourage people from considering the implications of the gender disparity in suicides with the usual “what about the womenz!?!” routine was called out.

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[–]theskepticalidealist1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Your evidence is not valid and you havent even tried to argue with me about why you think you should be able to draw conclusions that you are drawing from the figures in spite of it. I know there are different methods, the point is that this is a hand wave of the problem as you are using it. Instead of considering that men see less hope, you say that men as a gender are choosing these methods due to their psychological makeup NOT because they are more depressed than women. The only conclusion you can make if you entertain this idea is that men are inherently more violent, and that explains it. Thats how you get yourself in a situation where you say that women are more depressed because more women attempt suicide despite the fact that women have more support, despite the fact that men have a much harder time admitting depression, despite the fact that you get to the point where you will attempt suicide as a cry for help long before you seriously want to end your life. Your invalid use of attempted suicide as if its exactly the same as a complete suicide by a man is totally unjustified and can only be supported if you first assume that men arent really more depressed, just more violent.

[–][deleted]1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Instead of considering that men see less hope

This can also be a factor, and is in no way ruled out by the two facts that 1) Women experience depression more often than men, and 2) Men and women tend to choose different methods of suicide.

men as a gender are choosing these methods due to their psychological makeup

I don't think we've gotten into the why of that difference, other than that I don't think it's because men are thinking more rationally about suicide than women.

NOT because they are more depressed than women.

All the available evidence suggests that men experience depression less often than women. I feel like you're using a different definition of "more depressed" sometimes.

Thats how you get yourself in a situation where you say that women are more depressed because more women attempt suicide

No, I say women are more depressed because studies consistently find that women are depressed more often than men. The suicide bit came in when you put the fact that men successfully commit suicide more often proves that men are depressed more often.

[–]theskepticalidealist1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Once again your basis for concluding that women experience depression "more often" is based on invalid reasoning. You say all the available evidence says men experience depression less often, but you are basing that off data that you cannot make this conclusion using. Men and women tend to choose different methods... why? Maybe they use different methods because they are serious about killing themselves, which should be the first logical assumption based off that data. To claim that the reason they use more violent means = they are more violent, is hand waving. Can you find any excuse to reject the suicide statistics that ISNT "men are more violent"? When I brought up the fact that of suicides about 80% of them are men, the ONLY way you can claim this does not support my position is if you claim men are inherently more violent than females that are suicidal. Im saying that using your statistics you cannot possibly draw the conclusion that you do for all the reasons I have stated, but that you cannot argue with dead bodies. The man really did kill himself, no need to question if he really is depressed or not he clearly was or else he wouldnt have done it. While a man has all kinds of reasons why he would lie to himself and others about being depressed and minimise how he feels, a dead body is a dead body and you have to go out of your way to explain why men keep killing themselves if women are so much more depressed. You HAVE to claim its irrelevant if they actually succeed by such a huge margin, you HAVE to treat female attempted suicides as if they were the same as a completed suicide when a large percentage of those women will simply be crying for help and not serious about ending their lives.

[–][deleted]1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

You say all the available evidence says men experience depression less often, but you are basing that off data that you cannot make this conclusion using.

Is there any set of data or method of study that could be used to come to that conclusion legitimately?

Because... can you find any answer that ISNT men are more violent?

A few possibilities: 1) Choice of suicide method is tied up in cultural expectations of what's masculine and what's not, both in terms of the method used and the considerations people take into account when choosing. 2) People whose conditions have persisted for longer or who have received less help may gravitate toward certain methods over others.

You HAVE to claim its irrelevant if they actually succeed by by such a huge margin, you have to treat female attempted suicides as if they were the same as a completed suicide when a large percentage of those women will simply be crying for help and not serious about ending their lives.

How many of the men who successfully kill themselves do you think would cry for help if they thought they'd get it?

[–]theskepticalidealist1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I dont know how you would determine an accurate understanding of just how depressed men really are to the same extent you can with women. All I do know is that in using the methods so far the conclusions drawn from them are fatally flawed for various very critical reasons. The fact that 80% of suicides are men however makes it a very serious issue but its logic like yours that is undermining work into helping men because its always framing the issue in regards to how it affects women. So, instead of dealing with how men are so much more likely to kill themselves instead we get claims that depression is still a female dominated problem, that women attempt suicide more than men and therefore imply we should even give MORE help to women. Hello? On average if you have 10 dead bodies of people who have killed themselves in a room, only 2 are women, yet apparently we should ignore that and still suggest that women are more depressed. ----- Quote: "A few possibilities: 1) Choice of suicide method"... Im not stupid, even though you reworded it and dressed it up, its still easy to see this is just the same as saying "men are more violent". ------ Your last point... I think a lot of men would, I'm going to just refer you to a post I wrote to someone else on this thread: http://www.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/13atgf/study_were_less_likely_to_recognize_symptoms_of/c72o1uj

[–][deleted]1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

So, instead of dealing with how men are so much more likely to kill themselves

Dealing with this problem does not require that we assume the existence of a large group of undetectable depressed men.

that women attempt suicide more than men and therefore imply we should even give MORE help to women.

That conclusion does not necessarily follow. The fact that so many men commit suicide implies that they are severely underserved by the existing systems. The problem is actually more severe if there are half as many men as women suffering from depression.

On average if you have 10 dead bodies of people who have killed themselves, only 2 are women, yet apparently we should ignore that and still suggest that women are more depressed.

We don't need to ignore it. Those two ideas are not in opposition.

I'm not stupid, even though you reworded it and dressed it up, its still easy to see this is just the same as saying "men are violent".

There are other qualities that suicide methods can exhibit than "violent" and "non-violent".

[–]theskepticalidealist1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Strange how you say... "The fact that so many men commit suicide implies that they are severely underserved by the existing systems."...which means they are more depressed than women, because if they were helped by our systems they would be less depressed and wouldnt want to kill themselves! ....The methods are either violent or non-violent. What other qualities are there?You even started talking about cultural expectations, for what purpose unless you are going argue that for men its more "culturally acceptable" to stick a gun in your mouth and blow your brains out or have your body blown to bits by a oncoming train, just like everyone does that brings that argument up? And going back to the attempted suicide thing, what makes you think that if men attempted suicide and failed that we would know about it? If men attempt suicide and decided to not go through with it there's very good reasons to think we're not going to have a record at all. I reference this post by JohnMarkley: http://www.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/13h9tq/data_request_regarding_men_commit_suicide_more/c740t7f So again, you're exceeding the scope of what the statistics and survey results can tell you, drawing conclusions that cannot be justified. If you want to say you "dont know" thats fine, but you have so far hand waved all the issues with your conclusion for no reason at all, its unscientific. We have 2 options. 1. Men in general are more depressed and thus see no way out, which is why so many more are killing themselves 2. Men are more violent, not more depressed, and a small amount of depressed men kill themselves vs a majority of depressed women who dont because they happen to choose methods less likely to end in death. You have no basis for saying women are more depressed as such a conclusion based on those stats and surveys is invalid in the way I have discussed. Point 2 is also contingent on the idea that men choose more violent methods because they are men prone to acceptance of violence rather than the violent method chosen because they are serious about ending their lives thus suggesting more severe depression. I am saying that one can argue that your conclusions arent supportable using those statistics and surveys but no one can argue with dead bodies. There really are that many dead men compared with dead women, they really did kill themselves. THAT is solid evidence, not like your reading of those statistics and surveys.

[–][deleted]1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

which means they are more depressed than women, because if they were helped by our systems they would be less depressed and wouldnt want to kill themselves!

You're using different meanings of "more" again. That men are depressed half as often as women but succeed at killing themselves way more often indicates that the men who are depressed are not receiving enough help. It doesn't mean there are actually more of them.

The methods are either violent or non-violent.

That's not really a black and white distinction, but even if it is, the point is that in addition to being violent or non-violent, there can be other factors that differentiate methods of suicide (clean vs messy, private vs public, honorable vs shameful), which means that there can be a difference in what people choose without that difference necessarily being along the violent/non-violent axis.

If men attempt suicide and decided to not go through with it there's very good reasons to think we're not going to have a record at all.

It's questionable if that's enough to constitute an attempt, but even if it did, there's also an unknown number of women who meet that standard as well.

So again, you're exceeding the scope of what the statistics and survey results can tell you, drawing conclusions that cannot be justified.

And you're drawing conclusions from thin air based on your idea of what must be the case based on your interpretation of a loosely related statistic.

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I knew a man from where I worked a few years ago (he was a friend of mine to boot) that killed himself. He never ever showed one single shred of depression not once, he was always smiling and seemed happy and he made others happy. I remember his name, his face that always had a smile on it, and one of our last conversations it was about the blue man group coming to Minneapolis. One day all of a sudden he was gone, no one knew how he died at first, it was months before I knew what happened.

At the time I was just a intern for the engineering department, my mother worked there as VP general council so she told me what happened. I was in tears for a while. I remember where I was and what I was doing with clarity.

Since this is quite relevant I'll leave you with these words. Many people if not all hide behind a mask, that mask hides many things both good and bad, it isn't necessarily just there to hide things from others it can even hide something from yourselves.

[–]Headchopperz 3 points4 points5 points 13 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link

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[–]theskepticalidealist 8 points9 points10 points 13 years ago* (2 children) | Copy Link

[+]stoonedjesus 13 years ago* [recovered] (1 child) | Copy Link

bullshit

many men don't care if they splatter brains all over their room

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No, you submitted a Jezesmell link VerySpecialSnowflake

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Title	Study: We're Less Likely to Recognize Symptoms of Depression in Men
Author	iongantas
Upvotes	137
Comments	70
Date	November 16, 2012 2:58 PM UTC (13 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/13atgf/study_were_less_likely_to_recognize_symptoms_of/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/study-were-less-likely-to-recognize-symptoms-of.1009078 https://theredarchive.com/post/1009078

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