~ archived since 2018 ~

Sugar and spice and everything nice

ROUS_Do_Exist · 2012-03-23T06:05:07+00:00

Was just thinking about growing up how several girls, teachers,metc. Had repeated this and then said the derogatory other part about what boys are made of....

ROUS_Do_Exist

March 23, 2012

1 upvotes

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Post Information

Title	Sugar and spice and everything nice
Author	ROUS_Do_Exist
Upvotes	1
Comments	33
Date	March 23, 2012 6:05 AM UTC (14 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/r9mtl/sugar_and_spice_and_everything_nice/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/sugar-and-spice-and-everything-nice.1025422 https://theredarchive.com/post/1025422

Comments

[–]Manatee7474 7 points8 points9 points 14 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

[–]bikemaul 5 points6 points7 points 14 years ago* (4 children) | Copy Link

[–]getthefuckoutofhere 0 points1 point2 points 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[+]devmage 14 years ago* [recovered] (2 children) | Copy Link

Do you have a source to back this up? The anecdotal incidence of men serving and dying on front lines in, say, the two world wars seems to suggest that men are the primary victims of war, not women.

(Or, alternatively, do you have a /s to edit into the end of your comment? Can't tell if sarcastic...)

Edit: Thank you. :)

[–]DruchiiConversion 6 points7 points8 points 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]jus10time 2 points3 points4 points 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Embogenous 1 point2 points3 points 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]mikesteane 2 points3 points4 points 14 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]ToraZalinto 2 points3 points4 points 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Elementary school is where I first started to notice that the "rules" weren't right in the world. I'd been taught not to hit girls. It's wrong. But in third grade there was this girl and her friends who constantly got in everyone's face when they could. At one point she tried to hit me. As she swung at me and said "I can hit you, but you can't hit me back because I'm a girl!" I had my first introduction to "This doesn't seem right."

Later on in High School I was riding a bus home. There was, once again, a girl (not the same one) and her friends harassing me the entire bus ride home. Throwing opened ketchup packets at me. Throwing paper balls, etc. I ignored it since it wasn't inflicting any sort of pain. Just minor annoyances. But then as it came time for my stop and I got up to get off the bus. I was punched in the back of the head. I immediately turned and swung a backhanded fist at my assailant. As I turned I saw it was the girl who caused the trouble. My "teachings" took over and I slowed my fist and opened my hand and ended up only lightly brushing her face. Almost caress like. Immediately the entire section of the bus (Her friends primarily) started shouting "HE HIT HER! HE HIT HER! WOMAN BEATER! HE HIT HER!"

[–]eleitl 1 point2 points3 points 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]rightsbot 1 point2 points3 points 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]yabaininja 1 point2 points3 points 14 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[+]devmage 14 years ago* [recovered] (1 child) | Copy Link

I thought it was "snips", not "ropes". Though, snips of what, I am not sure at all.

[–]jus10time 1 point2 points3 points 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]kempff 1 point2 points3 points 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[+]devmage 14 years ago* [recovered] (1 child) | Copy Link

and do you think telling girls they are made of better things than boys is all in good fun or actually has an impact?

This has been studied, and yes, labeling a child can have profound effects on their performance and development.

Maybe it doesn't affect boys but is actually more harmful for women who are told they are perfect princessesnbeginning at an early age.

Do you have evidence for what you're asserting here? Or is this just speculation? It isn't exactly clear.

[–]ToraZalinto 1 point2 points3 points 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]C0CKPUNCHER 1 point2 points3 points 14 years ago (15 children) | Copy Link

[+]devmage 14 years ago* [recovered] (14 children) | Copy Link

Which numbers, and what do they confirm?

[–]C0CKPUNCHER 0 points1 point2 points 14 years ago (13 children) | Copy Link

[+]devmage 14 years ago* [recovered] (12 children) | Copy Link

The burden is on you to qualify your own statements. I'm not your fact-checker; you are.

Also, what should I be focusing on here? The suicide rates? Rates of suspension and expulsion in K-12, or rates of fighting? I don't see anything expressed here about happiness.

It's not even clear as to what you're trying to argue.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 14 years ago (11 children) | Copy Link

[+]devmage 14 years ago* [recovered] (10 children) | Copy Link

No, I'm trying to figure out what he's arguing here. If by "hundreds of real outcomes" that are measures of happiness you mean shit like "For every 100 girls enrolled in nursery school there are 98 boys enrolled", then sure. But I don't think that the number of boys vs girls who are deaf/blind necessarily implies that one sex is happier than the other.

A select few of those numbers could be used to infer some degree of happiness. For instance: alcohol use in teens; diagnosis of learning disabilities; suicide rates; incarceration rates. None of them are direct assessments of happiness, though. That's my problem here. You can't just point at a table of numbers and say, "SEE? THIS PROVES IT." The burden is on the claimant to also explain and justify, and I don't see where C0CKPUNCHER has done any of that.

[–]C0CKPUNCHER -1 points0 points1 point 14 years ago* (9 children) | Copy Link

[+]devmage 14 years ago* [recovered] (8 children) | Copy Link

Fact checking is not necessary

lol we're done here

[–]C0CKPUNCHER 0 points1 point2 points 14 years ago* (7 children) | Copy Link

[+]devmage 14 years ago* [recovered] (6 children) | Copy Link

Alright, look. I teach introductory discrete mathematics to college undergrads. One of the key skills that they take away from our class is proof-writing. If you've never done a mathematical proof, the form goes something like: state your claim, introduce your variables and assumptions, show your algebra, reach your conclusion. We stress to these kids to explain what they're doing at each step, because a proof is just as much about words as it is about correct math. For instance, a couple lines of algebra alone do not constitute a proof, and I can't give full credit to a student if I get something like that in a homework assignment.

As to our discussion here, we aren't writing proofs - that's true enough. What we are doing, though, is making logical assertions. Your assertion, now that you've actually taken the time to explain it, is that certain statistical observations should allow us to infer an assessment of happiness or emotional well-being. I don't disagree with that. Suicide rates among men are disturbingly higher than among women, for instance, which I feel points to structural differences in how we emotionally support men vs women.

But you know what? You didn't fucking state that. You made no attempt to explain the wall-o-stats that you posted. An intelligent person could maybe come to the same conclusion about those stats, but the point is that they shouldn't have to guess. If you make an assertion of any sort, the burden is on you to be absolutely crystal-clear about:

what you're asserting,
the basis on which you're asserting it, and
how the evidence you present ties together to support your assertion.

If you fail to do that, you haven't made an argument at all. You've just wasted other people's time.

And don't you dare think for a second that statistics shouldn't be questioned. Everything should be questioned, scrutinized, and re-verified. That's how scientific truths come to be. Anything less is simply irresponsible.

My emphasis on being clear about one's logic doesn't just come from my teaching background. /r/MR has a bit of an image problem, whereby it appears to outsiders as though we do a lot of unfounded woman-hating and so forth. In taking the time to explain our arguments, to explain why statistics like yours imply that men are overall not as happy as women, we can avoid this criticism in the future.

tl;dr take the fucking time to explain what you mean, next time

[–]C0CKPUNCHER1 point 14 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]devmage0 points 14 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

"No you" what? It's your job to persuade because you made an assertion.

If you must know, my students love me. Most of them are pretty willing to accept when they've made a mistake, which makes me willing to respect them and help them. Our dialogue is very friendly, as a result. That's the nature of teaching, and it's definitely a two-way street - I make mistakes as well, and I'm quick to admit and apologize when I do.

Here, your mistake was in failing to clearly state your claim, in failing to explain your argument. By contrast, here, I've made no mistake; I've merely pointed out yours, and you've become frustrated about it and yelled at me. You're attacking me for your own failure. If you can't see that, then I can't help you.

If you're going to argue something in the future, be clear about what it is you're arguing. That's all I'm asking.

[–]C0CKPUNCHER1 point 14 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I would have happily expanded on the argument if you hadn't been a dick.

http://www.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/r9u49/women_arent_creating_power_or_equality_theyre/c44ejgq?context=3

I'm not in your classroom. If you weren't a dick you would have just put forward your point instead of just going 'wrong try again lol', 'guess what I'm trying to say lol'. You should focus less on what someone does wrong (or actually just mis-quoting them and being obtuse), and more on just giving your argument.

It's not my assertion, I never said it was, I said it was what the evidence suggests. I never said i had an argument on it i wanted to share, it is just what seems the natural conclusion from the evidence - if you have another theory I would be happy to hear it. But I'm not going to waste my time for your entertainment.

Next time you feel like masturbating and wasting other people's time go on chat roulette.

It's not about me - it's not about you - it's about male victims / the experience of school boys - which you have posted nothing about - rather preferring to wank on about your peccadilloes in debate which I never asked to join in.

You're mansplaining is so annoying I have to use the term mansplaining.

"As to our discussion here, we aren't writing proofs - that's true enough. What we are doing, though, is making logical assertions. Your assertion, now that you've actually taken the time to explain it, is that certain statistical observations should allow us to infer an assessment of happiness or emotional well-being. I don't disagree with that. Suicide rates among men are disturbingly higher than among women, for instance, which I feel points to structural differences in how we emotionally support men vs women."

NO you still don't get it. Suicide is not evidence of suffering it is suffering. Getting lower grades is not evidence of suffering it is suffering. You are conflating the report of suffering with actual suffering. Suffering is about living a shitty life, that's why we pity the homeless heroin addict rather than crying rich people. Even though the heroin might make the addict feel very little pain. As such I gave measures of suffering - that was measures of suffering not as inference of suffering. This isn't an argument that needs making you just are so busy being a dick you seem to have missed out on this fact of life.

[–]devmage1 point 14 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Would you like me to break it down, post-by-post?

So here's your claim, without evidence:

I think it affects boys more. Numbers confirm this.

It isn't even clear from this what "it" is supposed to be, but we'll assume that it's labeling of young boys and girls, as that was one of OP's points.

This was followed by what you presented to be evidence:

http://www.postsecondary.org/archives/previous/ForEvery100Girls.pdf

as well as your explanation:

Every measurable measure of happiness (or not unhappy) other than self report boys score lower on. Do your own research.

which really doesn't contain anything explanatory, but instead contains another claim unto itself - that indicators such as suicide rates can be used to infer happiness.

Then you follow with a circular assertion:

I just gave you the facts.

and you throw in some personal attacks:

You don't seem to understand

You seem to have some idiotic idea

Go have fun mocking suicide victims somewhere else mr/ms hatespeach

and from there, it's pretty much personal attacks from you all the way down.

You cant read?

good work theist.

You are literally unable to admit suicide is suffering?

just because you are passive aggressive.

I hope you aren't such an asshole

If you weren't a dick

Next time you feel like masturbating and wasting other people's time

Do you see the pattern here? Do you see why this is problematic? I challenge you to find one point where I attacked you, as opposed to attacking your ideas and logic. That's what I've had a problem with in this whole conversation: your logic, as presented, is fucking broken.

You make two claims in your posts here, neither of which you take the time to justify. Instead you just take shots at me, and you seem to be satisfied with that being your assertion of proof. Logic isn't a pissing contest. That's why I dismiss you.

I don't actually disagree with what I presume to be your core argument. Various statistics, such as those that you presented, do indeed confirm that there is some systematic difference in how we socialize girls vs boys, and that boys do indeed suffer as a result of this difference. That's pretty fucked up, by and large, and is certainly far from the equality that we in MR strive toward.

That said, though, you never stated any of this. This is all speculation on my part, on your mental processes. The point here is that, if you had formed your argument completely and coherently, I wouldn't have to speculate.

And that's why I'm continuing to respond to you. I'm sure you're a fine person. You just made a shitty argument, and you got uppity about it when I pointed it out to you. Live and learn, man.

[–]C0CKPUNCHER0 points 14 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Next time you go on the internet ask yourself 'do I want to talk to this person, or do I just want to wank onto my keyboard and score some points?', if the first you will get something constructive, if the latter you will just get a sticky keyboard.

Suffering does not infer suffering - suffering is suffering. A bad life does not infer a bad life - it is a bad life. Beyond that I never said if the individual is responsible or society or whatever - that is your fantasy. I'm quiet happy to assume inequality occurs randomly without justice. ALL I said was we tell boys to eat shit, and then they eat shit. I never said I was going to say why it occurs, I don't think government should try to heal the world.

I'm done here, I hope to play your shitty game on you when you post your 'miss the whole fucking point wank' in other threads, but honestly I doubt I have your level of spite to do so, but I'm not going to keep helping you jerk off in this thread any more.

[–]devmage0 points 14 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link