The glass ceiling

ignatiusloyola · 2012-06-07T01:38:58+00:00

The gender ratio in high corporate positions is not really questionable - it is hard data. The origin of it hasn't been completely determined, and is likely due to a variety of factors.

Some possible contributions:

1. Gendered choices in time commitment in careers (vacation time, overtime, etc). (Not discrimination.)

2. Gendered choices in pursuing advances/promotions. (Not discrimination.)

Social perceptions about gender roles. (Partially discrimination, but not necessarily overt - many women have views about gender roles as well.)

4. Gender choices in risk taking. Remember - only a very few people make it to the top positions. If an equal number of men and women are on career paths to a corporate position, and half as many women take risks as men, then (assuming that men and women's risks have an equal chance of success) half as many women will exhibit risk taking qualities that get the attention of other senior people. (Not discrimination.)

5. Biological differences between gender capabilities. The argument behind equal rights is that both genders are equally capable (biologically), but NOT that both genders achieve equally when averaged out across the whole population. (Not discrimination.)

This is not a comprehensive list, and the links are not meant to be definitive research/writings on the subjects. They are meant to suggest that the solution isn't clear, there is still disagreement about the causes for these things, and that gender discrimination is not the only possible cause for differences.

MartialWay · 2012-06-07T01:52:37+00:00

If you've recieved Affirmative Action and special preference throughout your entire career (and college before that), the very first time you're expected to rise or fall on your own merits, it may indeed feel like you suddenly slammed facefirst into an invisible barrier. However, this isn't a sign that you're experiencing discrimination, it means that for the very first time you're experiencing fairness.

kronox · 2012-06-07T01:19:27+00:00

How do women not make it to high positions? I see more and more of them everyday, Meg Whitman for example is the CEO of ebay. It's not as if women are barred from those positions, if they were Meg Whitman wouldn't be CEO.

It comes down to the same set of reasons the wage gap myth is so incredibly false. Women on average tend to make certain choices in their lives that affect their earning potential. If you dedicate yourself entirely to your career you have much more of a chance to rise to the top (still incredibly small but more of a chance nonetheless).

zyk0s · 2012-06-07T22:22:06+00:00

Here's a related idea: the jewish population in the US is about 2%. Yet when you look at the jewish population among CEOs, it's about 30%. What's going on, is it discrimination? If you were to strictly apply feminist logic, then yes, Jews discriminate against others, that's why they're in top positions. Oddly, such a statement isn't well received in society today. Another countering argument is of course the idea of class immobility, maybe better talent for finance, a higher stress for academic achievement, and the idea of a form of "soft" discrimination: getting a job is often about who you know, you want to help friends an family, and this sentiment is shared by everyone and is perfectly legal.

So how does it relate to male CEOs? Well, a lot of the arguments are still valid: the children of CEOs tend to want to follow in their father's footsteps, a male dominated landscape will be more comfortable for them than for women, men might also be better at being CEOs, and there is more of an imperative placed on men to succeed. And the "soft" discrimination idea holds too: perhaps men are simply more comfortable trusting and relating to other men, and therefore are more prone to helping them. This is certainly true for women in female-led companies.

But after all is said and done, the real question is, should we attempt to balance things out? Any argument used to justify an artificial push for more women in leading positions implicitly means less men, and the same argument can be used to limit the number of Jewish CEOs. The latter is called bigotry, so ask yourself, why is the former called equality?

Fuccons · 2012-06-07T01:18:55+00:00

it's the same reason why there aren't many white players in the NBA.

skidude2000 · 2012-06-07T04:59:42+00:00

For the most part, women themselves create the glass ceiling. Women are more likely to work part-time, at more convenient schedules, and in safer and easier jobs.

2012-06-07T03:05:01+00:00

You have to look at:

The market value of the jobs and degrees they pursued and accomplished. A man with a masters in computer science is going to go further than a woman with a master's in Political Science. A certified heating and air conditioning technician who is male is going to earn more than a certified child care worker who is female.
The risk and difficulty of the jobs. People willing to work physically demanding and dangerous jobs are going to be paid partially on the basis of their willingness to take that risk.
Hours worked. Many studies show men work more hours, more overtime, take less sick days, take less vacation time than women. Someone who works more will be more likely to make more money and advance in their careers.
Willingness to go where the work is. Demographically, women tend to cluster in and around urban centers whereas men are willing to go where the work is. Such as all the male miners and oil workers flocking to Wyoming and the Dakotas right now.
Time taken off to raise a child. Many women choose to take time off from their careers to raise their children.

Add all these together and it shows that women make less money do to their life choices, and not because some man somewhere is holding them down.

Regrettably minority males are held back by educational issues and by the fact that white women have been bogarding "minority class" benefits from the federal government for decades.

2012-06-07T01:40:34+00:00

Women don't really have to work to have a nice life. Women get money and other nice things handed to them for free all the time by men who wish to court them and even forcibly through the government (child support, alimony, division of assets after a divorce). When they look for jobs they tend to favor the ones with the more comfortable work environments and hours, and the more prestigious the position, the less likely it is that it will have those qualities.

8echos · 2012-06-07T04:52:13+00:00

You might want to read up on the "glass escalator" phenomenon, which specifically considers how men climb the corporate ladder even in female-dominated fields. This study and the sources it provides might give you some insight regarding your questions (disregard the title, it actually brings up some good points about male discrimination).

Most of what I've taken away from all of these studies and arguments is that sexism (not discrimination, just sexist profiling for both men and women) often plays a role in workplace hierarchies.

rightsbot · 2012-06-07T01:04:17+00:00

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Title	The glass ceiling
Author	mordicaii
Upvotes	8
Comments	24
Date	June 7, 2012 1:02 AM UTC (14 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/uoywg/the_glass_ceiling/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/the-glass-ceiling.1020276 https://theredarchive.com/post/1020276

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