RedPillers: Does sexual value go down for men the more partners they have?

poffin · 2013-09-05T22:59:10+00:00

I'm a bluepiller, I won't be convinced otherwise and I'm sure I won't convince anyone I talk to "switch sides", but I'm...

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I am by no means red pill...even remotely. But, scientifically speaking, it would be the oxytocin receptors that would start to become less sensitive, if it's true.

It's definitely a phenomenon that happens with other chemicals. I am unaware of any evidence that suggests that it happens with oxytocin after frequent intercourse with a variety of partners, though.

Furthermore, I am unaware of any evidence that suggests it's a phenomenon that would be specific to women (Men pair-bond, too).

Not only that, but there is more at play during the pair bonding process, and it's not something that is 100% mapped out, start to finish, mechanism-wise.

What the data does show is that an increasing partner count in women is somewhat correlated with an increasing chance of divorce, and that this trend is not as prominent in men.

HOWEVER, it is important to note that when the data was controlled for other factors (such as level of education, among a few other things) the correlation essentially disappeared.

I just got home from a full day of work and grad classes, and I'm exhausted. So, I'm not gonna scrounge up the studies at the moment. But I can do some digging over the weekend, if anyone is actually interested.

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I was pointing out how women tend to go for the same small group of men. It's hypergamy. Men don't do this as much.

Skeptical about this.

http://blog.okcupid.com/index.php/your-looks-and-online-dating/

When it comes down to actually choosing targets, men choose the modelesque. Someone like roomtodance above gets nearly 5 times as many messages as a typical woman and 28 times as many messages as a woman at the low end of our curve. Site-wide, two-thirds of male messages go to the best-looking third of women. So basically, guys are fighting each other 2-for-1 for the absolute best-rated females, while plenty of potentially charming, even cute, girls go unwritten.

The medical term for this is male pattern madness.

The female equivalent of the above chart shows a different bias: As you can see from the gray line, women rate an incredible 80% of guys as worse-looking than medium. Very harsh. On the other hand, when it comes to actual messaging, women shift their expectations only just slightly ahead of the curve, which is a healthier pattern than guys’ pursuing the all-but-unattainable.

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I've only posted to red pill women before so I'm not endorsed or anything, sorry. For me personally my opinion of a man is negatively impacted if I know he's had a higher number of partners than I deem to be acceptable. I hold the same opinion for both sexes, but I'm not attracted to women so the reaction is more visceral when applied to men.

Overall I think topics like this are best avoided all around. My opinion of him can't be lowered if I'm not given the information that would lower it, and I'm happy to leave the past in the past as long as it's not intentionally brought to the present. I find casual sex is a turn off and my reaction to finding out that someone I see as a potential long term relationship or marriage material has been promiscuous would be a potential deal breaker for me because I want to be in a strictly monogamous relationship. I don't have a high partner count so I have no reason to lie, I just find the entire subject to be distasteful and an easy way to make both people feel insecure or resort to lying. None of this has to happen if you have the social grace not to bring it up, because of this I don't ask how many girls a guy I'm with has had and I avoid the subject in a fun/nice way if I'm dating a guy who steers the conversation in that direction. If a man insists and I care about him enough, I will have the conversation as long as he's willing to tell me how many people he's been with as well.

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You're saying that women can essentially fend for themselves in this age, and aren't reliant on men. That's true.

This only makes the deal all the more raw for men. If the man cheats, the woman at least has a bit of a financial security blanket today. If the woman cheats, well, I suppose the guy can get paternity testing, but even with this technology, divorce courts don't exactly have a favorable record with men.

it's not only her husband's resources that would be going to take care of his illegitimate children.

Only the husband would be cuckolded into providing resources for illegitimate children. The woman may be providing them as well, but she'd be providing them for children that she knows, beyond a shadow of a doubt, belong to her.

someone has now violated the trust of someone they vowed to spend the rest of their life with

That's true, and it hurts each gender either way, but it hurts men more today, and probably hurt men more in our ancestral environment.

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partner count that is high would be good for that. I think that would be the same for a man seeking a casual hookup.

I suspect this is not so. I linked this earlier.

Single women, at least, prefer taken men by an incredibly large factor of 7, dwarfing any other difference laid out on that graph. Of course, these didn't specify whether the respondents were interested in pursuing short term vs long term, and this is a problem.

I think a man looking for a one night stand doesn't give much of a care either way. Furthermore, and I'm guilty of not doing this, different types of partner counts should be distinguished, which you might have been hinting at.

A girl with short term partners: very good for a fling, because she has a history of flings.
A girl with long term partners: still pretty good for a fling, but less of a guarantee she'll be up for one.
A girl in a bar with many men giving her attention: not as great for a fling, too much competition

Basically, my thoughts are that single women crave men with higher partner counts more than vice versa.

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Everything I've heard about anthropology suggests that hunter-gatherer tribes tended to be promiscuous and engage in forms of polyamory and serial monogamy, though. So "partnering" wasn't so much a thing.

Serial monogamy, by definition, necessitates partnering.

Also, what "resources" are you talking about? For most of human evolution, there was no such thing as resource surplus. So that literally could not have been a factor in mate selection.

Heh, talk about the king of intuitive arguments.

I never said there were surpluses, although there undoubtedly were for certain periods of time. Resource inequality was real, though, and that's all that would've been needed.

You're also describing the paleolithic. While the paleolithic constitutes most of our evolutionary history, the neolithic comprises the most recent. It had strong evolutionary pressures on the groups who underwent it (most Asians, Indians, Europeans, Africans, and many Americans).

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Okay, well first of all, my entire argument there was based on the assumption that promiscuous people cheat more. I didn't say that promiscuous people cheated more. Sometimes, you base potential arguments on assumptions of dubious validity. This means that all you have to do is prove that assumption for your argument to hold valid.

In any case though, Promiscuous people display a type of behavior that is in direct conflict with monogamy. So the two assumptions aren't "just as likely". It is more likely that promiscuous people are more likely to cheat, because they have displayed behavior that is very conducive to cheating.

In the same way that Northrop Grumman would rather hire an MIT graduate than a newborn baby, it is more likely, objectively, that promiscuous people cheat more often.

[–][deleted]5 points 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Sometimes, you base potential arguments on assumptions of dubious validity. This means that all you have to do is prove that assumption for your argument to hold valid.

Sure, but you haven't made any effort to prove your initial assumption.

You provide the basis for a reasonable hypothesis, i.e. - promiscuous people are more likely to engage in infidelity.

But you're missing evidence.

http://www.kinseyinstitute.org/publications/PDF/Infidelity%20in%20hetero%20couples.pdf

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15607016

For what it's worth, I don't totally disagree with your premise. Though by no means bulletproof or comprehensive, there have been studies (see above) that show a correlation between lifetime number of partners/number of one night stands and infidelity.

It just sorta rankles me that so many people in this sub (not everyone), on either side, toss around claims seemingly for no other reason than it seems like they could make sense, and then make no effort to back them up.

I only jumped on you because of your snarky Let Me Google That For You Link that you tossed out when someone actually asked you to support what you were saying.

[–]through_a_ways-2 points 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

It just sorta rankles me that so many people in this sub (not everyone), on either side, toss around claims seemingly for no other reason than it seems like they could make sense, and then make no effort to back them up.

True, but you can't completely discount intuitive argumentation either. If someone provides a hypothesis that is supported by intuitive and rational logic, then it's still just that, a hypothesis. But it can be quite convincing depending on the strength of the argument. For what it's worth, a HUGE amount of what we think we know about evolution and history is derived this way.

I only jumped on you because of your snarky Let Me Google That For You Link that you tossed out when someone actually asked you to support what you were saying.

Well then, I think it's important that you know the context of the situation, and that the user who posted that has been "heckling" me for a few days now, and using far more inflammatory/angry language than I have. That's not the way I'd normally respond to someone asking for evidence.

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Everyone shitflings, "manosphere" frequenters included. Certain types do it more.

If "redpillers" (I'm using the term in quotes because I personally dislike it) dished out even a fraction of what a lot of feminists put out here,

writing off any sort of conclusion that doesn't fit their worldview, regardless of the evidence behind it
rationalizing said evidence as irrelevant simply because it isn't completely and positively 110% free of error
pretending that individual instances refute the existence of broader trends
often using woefully incorrect logic and inflammatory language to boot

social justice boards would be a complete shitfest (except a lot of them are already).

Next time you encounter any sort of bullshit feminist argument (since not all of them are bullshit), just try some of these out.

For the record, I'm not 100% in love with a lot of the stuff I see from redpillers either, but it seems like they tend to use fewer insults and ad hominem attacks, which is good enough for a start.

I've only started using Reddit a few days ago, so hopefully I just happened to run across some especially vocal feminists.

inb5 negative double digits.

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Right away the way the question is framed is dishonest. She does not have less value as a person. The number of partners a woman has slept with has no standing on how well she does her job etc.

For many men the more sexual partners a woman has the less desirable she is for a long term partner. I don't see the difference between this and any other preference that a man or woman has in their prospective partners.

The more sexual partners that a man has is generally seen as more attractive by women. Preselection is the explanation for this I believe. If a lot of women have wanted to have sex with this man there must be a reason for it.

The reason that the "rules" are different for men and women is because we are comparing different things. It is not attractive when women have sex whenever they want because the vast majority of women can have sex whenever they want with men who are just as or even more attractive than them. This could not be farther from the truth for the majority of men.

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I highly doubt that there is any scientific evidence for this. I will give you my personal opinion completely unsupported by anything except me.

I judge people by their actions. I think everyone does this and it is impossible not to. Women sleeping with a ton of guys are actions that she is taking that I think reflect her character.

For me it represents high sensation seeking, adventurousness (not sure if that's a word) and other similar character traits. These aspects are a part of who she is which is fine in and of itself. But they are not things that I am looking for in a long term partner.

If she is having sex with other reasons it still speaks to who she is. If she has low self esteem and she is sleeping with guys to make herself feel better this is not someone who I want in a long term relationship.

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Wrong again SpermJack. And by the way, you're trying to split hairs between perceptions and feelings? My god you are difficult.

Here is the exact text of the 5 questions asked to gather data for the CCI:

1) How would you rate present general business conditions in your area? [good/normal/bad]

2) What would you say about available jobs in your area right now? [plentiful/not so many/hard to get]

3) Six months from now, do you think business conditions in your area will be [better/same/worse]?

4) Six months from now, do you think there will be [more/same/ fewer] jobs available in your area?

5) How would you guess your total family income to be six months from now? [higher/same/lower]

The other questions are for different reports that the board sells and the data from those do not make up the CCI.

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[–]through_a_ways1 point2 points3 points 12 years ago* (16 children) | Copy Link

Does the same follow for men as well?

The exact opposite follows, in the case of single women.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0022103109001048

Single men prefer single women by a small margin, makes sense.
Single women prefer taken men by a huge margin, also makes sense.
Taken men prefer taken women by a small margin. Might be conscious reasoning on the part of men that it would be easier to have an affair with a taken woman, who shares the same secret as you. Might be guilt on the part of men for "leading on" the single girl. Might also just be noise.
For some strange reason, taken women preferred single men almost twice as much as taken men. If anyone knows of a potential explanation for this, comment below.

All this data also reveals one more important fact, that men are more willing to pursue females than the other way around.

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I'd definitely like to get in on this debate. What if I told you TRPers that sex is relatively easy for me, as a "Blue Pill" man to get, as in I more often than not reject advances of women because they a) don't suit my tastes, or b) I'm totally dtf but they seek commitment out of me and out of personal preference (in sharp contrast to RP philosophy) choose not to deceive them into thinking I'm looking for something more than sex?

Conversely, what if I were to tell you some of the most attractive, highly confident, and personally successful women I've been acquainted with have difficulty finding partners for casual sex? Bear with me, for particularly attractive women aiming to look their best they can often be intimidatingly attractive and seem out of the league of many men who they'd otherwise like to just get some good fucking going on with. That is they'll still be approached by some "quality men", but these men will approach her almost always with intentions of further commitment when she doesn't give a fuck about having a committed partner, and is ALSO unconcerned with getting older and coming off the "cock carousel" to settle down with a beta because her sense of self worth doesn't stem from being young and being an ultra desirable sex object for men, two things TRP assumes are the source of a woman's sense of self esteem.

To get another thing out of the way I'm sure someone will say something like "well if she really just wants sex she's just gotta open her legs like any other whore" well you know the whole thing pua tells you about stage 5 clingers? Highly attractive women who just want someone to fuck often get the worst variations of these and often have to change their fucking numbers because as much as this played out old as time dialogue about men wanting to fuck and women wanting to marry cus it's some sort of fucking objective evolutionary biotroof is thrown around it's not true and it really pisses me off because if you stopped making women feel guilty for wanting sex free of commitment and men feel guilty for not wanting to hop on every piece of ass thrown their way we'd all be getting laid a whole bunch more and not lying about our sex lives.

[–][deleted] -3 points-2 points-1 points 12 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link

What if I told you TRPers that sex is relatively easy for me, as a "Blue Pill" man to get, as in I more often than not reject advances of women because they a) don't suit my tastes, or b) I'm totally dtf but they seek commitment out of me and out of personal preference (in sharp contrast to RP philosophy) choose not to deceive them into thinking I'm looking for something more than sex?

Well, I'm sure that's great for you. Many men, perhaps most, however do not experience anything anywhere close to this kind of attention.

Rather, many men have the experience of being invisible to women. Many, perhaps most men are not considered objects of desire by women. There was a recent article which featured on TRP, or Mensrights which featured a woman lamenting that as she aged, she experienced this same sort of invisibility.

cus it's some sort of fucking objective evolutionary biotroof is thrown around it's not true and it really pisses me off because if you stopped making women feel guilty for wanting sex free of commitment and men feel guilty for not wanting to hop on every piece of ass thrown their way we'd all be getting laid a whole bunch more and not lying about our sex lives.

Sure. And for those people who don't quite fit into the mold of conventional attractiveness? Somehow I doubt that'd do much for people who aren't as fortunate as you evidentally are...

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your replies give me a strong sense of the TRP community's fixation on gender norms as symptomatic of an intense anxiety and misunderstanding of female sexuality, and consequently a desire to prescribe and control female sexuality to make it easier for men to navigate through it

Hmm... Maybe.

In response to that, I would argue that the messages that I internalized about female sexuality were quite mixed, and in certain circumstances, I believe misleading. I have a hard time identifying the origin of these notions, but that they exist suggests something I think pernicious.

I distinctly remember internalizing the notion that looks don't matter to women. My latest working hypothesis is that looks matter, and that this message, "looks don't matter" is something that some women say about themselves and to each other. Some women will say that if a man finds a woman unattractive, and choses to break up with her, or not date her, then he doesn't deserve her in the first place.

In any case, whatever the truth of that may be, could you sketch out how it is that theredpill misunderstands female sexuality? I can see how theredpill would do what it does so as to make it easier for men to navigate female sexuality, but if will induldge me, I'd like a bit more detail about how the latter leads to the former please.

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Albinos are not common, does that increase their SMV?

Pardon me, if you were led to believe that once a quality its automatically treasured. That are many STDs that are rare and loathed.

However for some enitities, their rarity does increase their value. Such as limited editions luxury vehicles, paintings, and yes ... a woman's virginity. There is a reason why some women even auction their virginity to the highest bidder close to 1 MILLION DOLLARS.

IT IS VERY VALUABLE.

(and to clarify I am not referring to pedophilia or Ephebophilia or hunting down high school girls )

I'm sure that's true for many men. It's also true that women prefer men who have not had an inexhaustible list of sexual partners.

I agree to an extent. The limit is that a man would happily have sex with a virgin woman, whilst a woman would expect a man to have some experience and knowledge to be able to satisfy her in bed. Women don't treasure virginity in men, like men do in women.

If you don't believe that, you are either young or naive.

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[–]fhqwhgads_3 points 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

No, we're not going in circles. I disgreed with your claim that

Women see virgin men as inexperienced and awkward

and that women prefer more experienced men. With such a overarching claim that women as a group prefer something, I can refute it with an anecdote of women not acting in the manner that you mentioned.

You tried to back up your claim with arguments that did not make sense, i.e. men must gain experience to satisfy a woman in bed. I already stated one of the reasons it doesn't make sense above, i.e. that the best way to learn to sexually satisfy your partner is to have a lot of sex with them (as well as open communication).

Another hole in your argument is that you seem to gloss over the fact that if the main cause of divorce was really sex in the way you described (the man was a virgin before the relationship and for some reason this inhibited him from pleasing his wife), then it would be equally as likely that this would happen but with the woman being a virgin that's the problem. So the argument you were trying to make actually refutes your initial position.

The other arguments you attempted to make were listing actions that the woman could do if the man was bad in bed (no second date, cheating). Obviously these are possible, but cheating can be avoided by dating someone who you trust and who is loyal to you. Also it should be noted that cheating is never ever the fault of the person who's been cheated on. The blame lies solely on the cheater. For the "no second date" dilemma, this could be avoided by not having sex on the first date and forming an emotional bond before jumping into sex so the woman is less likely to judge you based on one sexual experience.

So in conclusion, you haven't given any evidence of your claims.

[–]Blemish-2 points 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

With such a overarching claim that women as a group prefer something, I can refute it with an anecdote of women not acting in the manner that you mentioned.

I am of the opinion that you live in a fantasy world. A man being a virgin will certainly detract from his ability to attract women.

You tried to back up your claim with arguments that did not make sense, i.e. men must gain experience to satisfy a woman in bed.

I still believe this. Whilst communication would certainly sharpen your lovemaking skills, the virgin compared to the seasoned man would have a harder time.

Many aspects of sex you can ONLY learn through field practice.

Another hole in your argument is that you seem to gloss over the fact that if the main cause of divorce was really sex in the way you described (the man was a virgin before the relationship and for some reason this inhibited him from pleasing his wife), then it would be equally as likely that this would happen but with the woman being a virgin that's the problem. So the argument you were trying to make actually refutes your initial position.

One of the main reasons for marriage problems is sex. Inexperienced virgin men would have a harder time than sexually experienced men. Its basic logic.

The woman being a virgin at marriage is NEVER a problem. In fact its encouraged. Ever heard of "shedding blood on the wedding sheets" ?

In fact in many cultures, women are frowned upon for not being virgins upon marriage. Doctors even make lots of money perform hymenoplasty which is meant to "restore" virginity. Female virginity at marriage is prized and treasured !!!!

I unfortunately question how experienced you are in the real world.

The other arguments you attempted to make were listing actions that the woman could do if the man was bad in bed (no second date, cheating). Obviously these are possible, but cheating can be avoided by dating someone who you trust and who is loyal to you. Also it should be noted that cheating is never ever the fault of the person who's been cheated on. The blame lies solely on the cheater. For the "no second date" dilemma, this could be avoided by not having sex on the first date and forming an emotional bond before jumping into sex so the woman is less likely to judge you based on one sexual experience.

Again from the points you raise, you appear to have an overly simplistic view of marriage and relationships :

cheating can be avoided by dating someone who you trust and who is loyal to you.

If it were that simple, cheating would be a thing of the past. However I note that finding a suitable partner is a must.

I certainly agree that cheating is always the fault of the cheater. However you would be naive to take complement in this, due to the tremendous consequences a cheating spouse can have in a marriage. ( Paternity fraud, STDs, divorce, alimony )

Personally I would love to have sex on every first date, if possible. Not only would it be an immediate return on time invested, but it would also let us both know if we are sexually compatible. "Try before you buy" scenario

[–]fhqwhgads_5 points 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

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[–]Canned_Wine1993 points 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I'm a man, I don't prefer virgins, as a matter of fact if a girl was anyone other than someone i deeply felt a connection to and told me she was a virgin, or she was explicit that it's something she just wants to get over with and isn't seeking any further commitment from me, I'd probably have a really fucking awkward night of putting my clothes back on and telling her I'm not the guy for her. Given the choice of sleeping with a girl who's slept with 2 men her whole life, and one who's slept with 200 in the same period of time, they're both clean and equally attractive, I'd pick the latter because she's probably a lot more fun, psychological issues or not (I kind of dig the crazies actually). Really fucks with your basic premise eh?

The problem is that you and the red pill say this sort of shit as fact rather than opinion, referring to them as part of swallowing the pill and evolutionary biology and biotroof and whatever the fuck to make your worldview seem objective. I mean it's in the name, red pill, you guys literally think your opinions on how male-female relationships work are the truth hidden from men by the bluepill agents, the feminists or beta pussys or whatever the fuck you all think are conspiring to make men serve the interests of women to their own detriment. TRP and MRA and such are fucking oblivious to how they're the same sort of angst ridden reactionary bigots they despise in the realm of radical feminism and that's why blue pill thinks it's great to fuck with you all

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RedPillers: Does sexual value go down for men the more partners they have?

Comments

CASE CLOSED.

IT IS VERY VALUABLE.

Title	RedPillers: Does sexual value go down for men the more partners they have?
Author	poffin
Upvotes	7
Comments	215
Date	September 5, 2013 10:59 PM UTC (12 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/1ltefp/redpillers_does_sexual_value_go_down_for_men_the/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/redpillers-does-sexual-value-go-down-for-men-the.286815 https://theredarchive.com/post/286815