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I know I will probably get grilled for this post, but there seems to be quite a split in opinions on how "controlling" (i.e. setting up relationship boundaries) a man should be with his LTR, with the majority of TRP saying that you shouldn't care what your woman is doing etc, you shouldn't mate guard as this is all "beta" behavior, and if you do this you're putting her too much on a pedestal.
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But imo, by not setting up relationship boundaries early on in the relationship with a LTR (i.e. not a plate) and by validating her behavior --> in particular to girls nights out or late "work drinks" (i.e. her coming home at midnight after drinking) you're going to be setting yourself up on the eventual path to doom.
Let's look at this scenario
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Let's say the relationship has started off rock solid and she has a really high level of attraction to you and doesn't want to lose your and has no intention to cheat on you.
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She has no nefarious intentions and LTR comes to you (6 months into the relationship) and asks you have if you are "cool" with her going out with her friends (without you) to a bar/nightclub or late work drinks with a mixed sex audience. It's going to involve her drinking atleast 4+ drinks and getting tipsy and having fun with her friends.
1. Reaction A - Don't give a fuck /or dread game her
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This is what majority of TRP recommends. It shows that you have self-confidence and know that if she fucks up you will turf the relationship and hit up a back up plate (no real loss).
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In the short-term, this may pay off as she is highly attracted to you and its only 6 months in.
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The risk of her screwing up on this night is low (in the short term)
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Problem/issue with this reaction - it validates bad LTR behaviour. She sees that you are "cool" with this, and she will continue to do this whenever she feels because you have no problem with it. This might not be a problem early on 6 months to 12 months, but what happens years 3, 4 or 5+? How many nights out will this be? Even assuming a less than 5% chance of fucking up (i.e. she drinks too much, she’s ovulating and a super-alpha overcomes her on the DF and she makes out and gets fingered by him), this will eventually fuck up due to statistics. Do you seriously want to be that guy sitting at home while your GF is out to midnight having fun, getting drunk in a mixed environment? This is realistically where you might end up. I doubt any guy in a LTR would not "give a fuck" that his GF is out doing this if he has a strong bond with her. The bottom line is - this reaction is a temporary fix and is only applicable if you are “cool” with your GF going out late and getting drunk in a mixed social environment.
2. Reaction B - Say that you are not attracted to that behavior and its incompatible in the LT
- You tell her upfront that you're not attracted to girls who do this and its compatible in the LT with you.
- If she goes out anyway, you turf her immediately and bring 1 of your plates up into LT status.
- You repeat this with all
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This is a great topic that can't be touched on enough. A relationship, whether friend or LTR, can essentially be broken down into agreed boundaries. That agreement to do things for each other and to not do things that will affect each other negatively. The more those boundaries are learned, understood, and respected, the stronger the relationship becomes. Set early and maintain fortitude. Scrambling them together later only makes one look like a bumbling fool.
[–]Glenbert 1 point2 points3 points (0 children) | Copy Link
The wrong way to do this is to frame it in terms of some universally correct behavior.
You just say what you will accept and what you won't accept. After all, the only thing you have any real authority over is what you will and won't accept.
[–]Labore_Et_Constantia 0 points1 point2 points (0 children) | Copy Link
I think the best approach is:
Use the one YOU ARE COMFORTABLE WITH
They are BOTH fine and they can BOTH work, but they are very very different. Regardless of which approach you take, be confident with it and stick with it at least for the duration of the relationship as changing will show poor mental posture/weakness.
[–]throwawayugh243 0 points1 point2 points (0 children) | Copy Link
I agree with this 100%. Honestly, I hear this a lot that it shows that you're confident enough with yourself that she isn't going to cheat by letting her go out alone for the night and get drinks with a mixed group. I think it ultimately dismisses human nature and is disrespectful for women to do this (men as well).
I think going out for drinks with coworkers is fine if it meets these conditions: you're allowed to bring your SO, it's only a couple drinks and you'll be home by 8 or 9pm (or whatever). If the woman is afraid she seem antisocial, this allows to hang out for a bit before heading out.
If someone is in a LTR and cares about you, they will MAKE the effort to show that. She won't be losing out by staying past 11pm getting drinks with "coworkers." It's the most asinine reason to say they need to be alone like that. If not, then that excuse is to mask something else.
I think letting the girl go out like that is just disrespectful. It's not about being secure, it's just about disrespect and the ultimately, the intentions of the chick. You ultimately want to be with someone who will respect you and take measures to show that they do.
If someone can offer insight and change my opinion, PLEASE go ahead. I'm pretty open about this.
[–]circlhat 0 points1 point2 points (0 children) | Copy Link
Well done, I made this mistake several times, nice to see it from another perspective that is very well explained.
[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points (1 child) | Copy Link
I'm a fan of #2. I don't do as much dread game because its essentially passive aggressive game. "Yeah you CAN go out, but any of these 2 girls could be on my dick... You're welcome to go out, sure, but there miiiiiight be consequences!" That is not the ideal - highly powerful and useful as a tactic, but I do not believe this is the right default frame.
If it is a plate, I will honestly not care. Plates can go drink, I put them on plate status specifically because there's no commitment. If I like a plate and am thinking about LTRing her, then I want to take a much more active stance, outlining directly what I expect from her. No hitting up clubs, no getting college-wasted unless its a really special occasion, etc. Spell it out - girls love ambiguities because they can claim they were within the rules while doing things they know they shouldn't be.
I have found most girls who argue with the club thing are girls who you don't want to LTR anyway. Most girls who protest will do so not because they want to cheat at the club or object to the idea of it, it's because they honestly are just that into clubbing with their friends and care way to much about what their friends think. This is something I want to find out early.
Dread game, not giving a fuck, that is all a part of it. I guess it's not a question of 1 versus 2, but rather viewing them as tools that you can both use. Actively setting boundaries is in general one of the best things you can do in various areas of your life (very important for work, family, friendships, etc) and helps your respect. No one respects a guy with no boundaries. Whereas someone with rigid, insane boundaries, like someone would say someone who only would LTR a virgin, is still someone I can respect because I can see how they have their principles and life by them. So this would be my #1 go to option for grooming high-potential plates into LTRs.
For a college girl having fun in her youth though, aka an average plate, you don't want to be heavy handed with this though - don't try to use boundaries to confine a ho into "housewife" behavior. Just let her be a ho and genuinely DGAF - she isn't giving up getting drunk with her girls for you.
[–]jacobman 0 points1 point2 points (0 children) | Copy Link
Sigh. Girls could care less about the spirit of the rules as long as they can get what they want while saving face and maintaining their reputation.
[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points (1 child) | Copy Link
Ok, say I do this. I, however, have no intention of following such a rule myself. Not at a club (I hate them), but a bar which to be honest is almost just as bad.
I'm getting ready to go out, and she's mate guarding. I tell her she's fucking hallucinating if she thinks she's going to tell me I can't hang with my friends for drinks and there's the door if she doesn't like it.
But she says "people don't do this in a relatiooonshiiiip", and you know who taught her that? ME. Me and her pussywhipping friends. I'm the only one who thinks its ok for me to go out with friends drinking while in a relationship, and I can't even keep that straight. Congruency is lost, she knows this is bullshit, and the blowback is bad.
If I stay in and stop hanging with my friends when they're < gasp > DRINKING IN PUBLIC!!! even if I never bring up the idea of going out to begin with, I'm pussywhipped, controlled and in exactly the condition I was before I got some balls in relationships. NEVER going there again. I'd much prefer be single.
I suppose its different strokes for different folks, but mate guarding just isn't for me. I won't do it, not even for the sake of keeping them, because they're just not worth it to me. If it creeps into a relationship, its a red flag with a fucking truck horn attached to it, and I am an aloof ass about it from the moment I catch a whiff of that stinky shit. I don't let her even think she can get away with it, and I won't lower myself to that sort of crap, not to keep her, or anyone else.
I guess I'm just not alpha enough? Is it alpha to not even care if I am?
[–]jacobman 0 points1 point2 points (0 children) | Copy Link
I think most people are talking about going to clubs, not going out for a drink at a private table. If you plan on going out with friends to drink at clubs and places where people are mixing without your girlfriend and you wouldn't want your LTR doing that without you, then perhaps LTR's really aren't for you.
[–]chocolatecuntmuffin 0 points1 point2 points (2 children) | Copy Link
If you are truly 'alpha', why would this bother you? Wouldn't you have complete confidence in your ability to have her absolutely wrapped around your finger, causing her to not do stupid shit?
When people (both men and women) do stupid shit, it's because they wanted to. It honestly doesn't matter what their excuse was-I was drunk, high, feeling vulnerable, etc...deep down, they just wanted to do it. If they did it and you find that unacceptable, then you drop them and move on.
[–]jacobman 1 point2 points3 points (1 child) | Copy Link
You can be the most alpha guy in the world, but the vast majority of women if given the chance enough will fuck up. People in general will fuck up if given the chance enough. Not fucking up is a large part removing yourself from the temptations rather than trying to resist them.
[–]chocolatecuntmuffin 0 points1 point2 points (0 children) | Copy Link
That begs the question; why would you want to be in an LTR with someone who you know typically likes to put herself/himself in that "temptation" and are easily persuaded? Past telling someone "hey, I'd really like it if you didn't mess around with other guys/girls, and also didn't fuck anyone else but me", anything else they do on their own is really their choice/mistake. In their chosen action, they do something that doesn't agree with you, then you choose not to accept it and move on.
If that's what they typically like, i.e. getting drunk and partying with strangers, men and/or women, that's just who they are. It's only a matter of time before they "fuck up". And even then, who are you to tell anyone to remove themselves from the temptations if that's what they like? Wouldn't she/he just grow resentful and eventually fuck up in some other way?
I'm skeptical about people's real intentions or "mistakes", but I also believe in everyone's choice (and eventually, willpower) to make decisions for themselves.
[–]jacobman 0 points1 point2 points (1 child) | Copy Link
Well, one thing to keep in mind is that it becomes much harder to do anything about this type of situation if you're in a monogamous LTR relationship or not spinning plates. If you're in that situation and she does what she wants you only have two options. Let her do what she wants or break up with her. It's of my opinion that breaking up with a girl is a serious, often irreversible, action. This means that often there's no longer a chance for a real LTR.
When you're not doing committed bullshit, you can simply stop spending as much time with her if she decides to do this type of thing. Because you're not in a committed relationship this is accepted and does not damage the relationship nearly as much. Often when confronted with the loss of your attention and time, a girl will reconsider if that behavior is worth it to her. It's easy to spend less time with her when you're not in a committed relationship. It's hard to do that when you are without seriously damaging the potential for a real LTR.
[–]pupplenupple 0 points1 point2 points (0 children) | Copy Link
Yep. Stop spending time with your LTR and she's just going to spend more time with her friends. Human beings are social creatures and have social needs.
Proactively taking control of the couple's social life can work out fairly well for a guy though. If she's already getting all she needs with him when they go out with mutual friends, then the girls night stuff is only going to be done occasionally so she can catch up with her single friends in person.
[–]writewhereileftoff 0 points1 point2 points (11 children) | Copy Link
Boundaries? It's clear as fuck. She can go out whenever she feels like it. She knows very well what she can or cannot do. If she does decide to play game it's over.
Not letting your girlfriend go out screams insecure. Remember TRP is about your behaviour affecting those around you. What kind of message do you send when you don't let her go out? If you are confident in yourself and your attraction to her whats there to fear? Remember if she cheats on you...that's actually your fault. You can't blame a woman for being a woman. If you suck...she will look for alternatives. If you rock her world...she wont.
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[–]writewhereileftoff -5 points-4 points-3 points (5 children) | Copy Link
I see what you mean. Even so if that is the kind of girl you go for I'm not sure what you expect them to do. People will only walk over you...if you let them walk over you. If everywhere you go there's huge sluts and unfaithfull whores and all that shit you are the common factor.
I do feel every "relationship" is a learning experience. So yeah you could cry "sluts & hoes are all the same all day" it wont change a thing. Focus on yourself mate.
Proof of that is all over this subreddit. Successtories everyday.
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[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points (3 children) | Copy Link
I agree that boundaries don't prevent a slut. Cheating happens if an upgrade is found or if the existing man disappoints. Women hold infatuation paramount and enjoy having the privilege to change their minds. That doesn't make them liars or sociopaths - just fickle.
You can't control women. The only behavior you can control is your own. Luckily, women will control themselves to win/keep the affection of a high value man. That's why I think getting cheated on is your fault. Maybe you can't see it coming, but you can discourage it with dedication to self-improvement.
Edit: ...and if you can't prevent it, you're still in a good position to replace her
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[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points (1 child) | Copy Link
That's a long-winded way to say Not All Women Are Like That (NAWALT).
If you believe in women of strong character, ones who refuse to cheat, you are truly optimistic. My experience says that any woman will cheat on a loser, and her friends will cheer for her.
My strategy is to keep her infatuated, as women fall in and out of love with only one man at a time. If I can tell she's head-over-heels, I don't have to worry about it.
[–]tradingten 0 points1 point2 points (0 children) | Copy Link
I totally agree,if you have no confidence in this girl get out anyway.
[–]TheSKSpecial 0 points1 point2 points (1 child) | Copy Link
Even if you rock her world it's no guarantee she won't cheat.
Hypergamy is a motherfucker, no matter how "alpha" you are, no matter how tight your game is, a woman will find a reason to cheat if she wants to. If you think your loving caring unicorn wouldn't fuck somebody famous or powerful if they gave her half a chance then you're a dumbass.
Knowing your woman can and will cheat if she has the chance and not giving a fuck because she's one of 3.5 billion, that's when you've developed a true abundance mentality.
[–]Endorsed ContributorDownvoteToDisagree 0 points1 point2 points (3 children) | Copy Link
Pracrically speaking, explain the details of the second approach. You're gonna cut communication with your GF for a few days/a week for that? How are you keeping a plate so ready to go while you have an LTR?
This is more feasible with an unlabelled LTR, and not an established GF.
[–]TRP VanguardCyralea 0 points1 point2 points (1 child) | Copy Link
All the more reasons to establish these kinds of boundaries early on. If you wait a year into the relationship sudden changes come across as controlling.
[–]jacobman 0 points1 point2 points (0 children) | Copy Link
Psychology. People HATE to lose things. You can't lose something you never had to begin with though.
[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points (0 children) | Copy Link
This is pathetic. The only way to secure your woman is to become a man she wouldn't even think of leaving. That is real control. When you can give someone the freedom to do what they want, but they still want you, you are alpha. This is pathetic, beta, controlling nonsense.
[–]trudatness -1 points0 points1 point (0 children) | Copy Link
There is a huge difference between setting the proper boundaries and being controlling.
Setting boundaries is about lining up the deal breaker rules.
You don't scold, you just make good on your dread game threat. Actions have consequences.
An intelligent woman should know what the boundaries are without you having to speak of them much.
If you find yourself having to reiterate and reinforce boundaries on a regular basis, that's a problem that will eventually lead to NEXT-ville.
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