The Problem With PUA/Seduction Explained Pretty Well

EmbeddedAssets · 2014-08-13T16:55:37+00:00

There's a difference between what I call fundamentals and game. Fundamentals is who you come off as - your clothes, looks, body language, voice, inner mindset, etc. And game is the tactics with words used to seduce women - negging, agree and amplifying, etc. I'd say what they say is right on some levels, but when they mention "looks", I think they're talking more about fundamentals.

I believe attraction from experiences is around 80% fundamentals and 20% game. So what he's saying essentially is that PUA focuses too much on the game portion, which accounts for an inefficient allocation of your resources (time and energy). And I agree. New TRPers should definitely work on fundamentals first (that means monk mode for some people) before heading out there and using tactics.

Subtletorious · 2014-08-13T16:40:25+00:00

PUA's fall into the same trap as economists. Economists, like PUAs, analyze complex human interactions then construct models to represent their observations. But like economists, PUA then confuse their constructed models with reality.

As a result, you've got Central Bankers who think they can control economies and Day Gamers who think normal people approach 100 random women searching for a single phone number.

whatsazipper · 2014-08-13T17:29:13+00:00

If your behavior is unattractive, you're going to eliminate your options quickly.

Game is not to fuck girls who are repulsed by you. It's not going to make you attractive to all women.

But it's going to ensure your options are maximized based on your present position in life. Women are highly optimized to analyze behavior.

BluepillProfessor · 2014-08-13T19:33:05+00:00

OK, so Game and Frame doesn't work?

What? Seriously? Yes a 5 still cannot 'game' a 10 into bed, usually. That means we throw out the baby and the bathwater? No thanks.

Game easily raises your SMV 2 points, probably more if you were a beta toe stub before TRP. Game teaches abundance, approach, and the rules of attraction. The authors of this piece are binary. Game is not the panacea. It doesn't magically make you HAAWWWT. But game sure as hell helps and it is way, way more than just confidence. the whole attitude is chick bait.

Did they seriously say that passing shit tests, holding a strong, dominant frame, and acting cocky/funny etc does not build attraction with women? The hell it doesn't!

bbidabbong · 2014-08-13T18:04:55+00:00

For me it was three factors, since always:

1: Looks. Groom yourself and train until you look like you can tear other men apart limb by limb. Feel comfortable in your clothes, and respect clothes etiquette if there is one.

2: Confidence. Do something with your life. Have goals, focus on achieving them, then repeat do the circle. Became what you want to be. You can be a lawyer, or janitor. But achieving your goals will give you confidence.

3: Social acceptance. Having looks and confidence could help. Other then that, this can not be covered in a few sentences.

That is it. There is no stupid game. No magic words or shit. Majority of this guys are good at talking to girls. Which is really not a big thing. Producing gina tingles is, but you are not going to do it by a few magic words ot ton of other things PUAs are advising.

You are going to by becoming a man.

TheWorldToCome · 2014-08-13T15:18:26+00:00

Summary: Looks are pretty much everything for attracting the other sex. Other than having confidence, "game" is pretty worthless. People want to sleep with who they find physically attractive.

2014-08-13T15:35:44+00:00

I am thankful for how reading PUA stuff about 15 years ago has helped me back then.

Looking back it was funny. It helped me to see some red pill truths. But I couldn't put the pieces together.

That was sometimes more frustrating than helping.

RebootedMale · 2014-08-13T22:02:01+00:00

The core of PUA is essentially faking The Red Pill in order to get short term results.

It works. It wont make you happy, and you won't keep the girls because you are faking it, but it works. If two guys have equal looks, the guy using PUA technique will have substantially higher success in bedding (not keeping) women.

Pretending PUA doesn't work is what third-wave feminists do. It is not what we do.

SkorchZang · 2014-08-13T17:45:26+00:00

There is no problem with PUA/Seduction and the idea that it's problematic is a feminist trope.

The article claims a woman will not give you the time of day unless you meet her looks criteria. Ever. Dunno about you, but I had plenty of experience where I would bust out the old "careless asshole game" and seduce women via pure text, deliberately with no picture whatsoever. Get naked photos, dates, the works that way.

When I first came in contact with seduction material, like many beta-role guys I also used to dress like absolute shit. At this stage I'd have lots of women tell me "you're, like, totally not my type, but there's just. something. about you..." I always took pride in that, thinking I must be spitting some good game now... when in actuality it was just time to pay attention and not dress shitty. Still, if that's not a complete contradiction of what this article claims, straight from the horsie's own mouth, then I dunno what is...

TLDR:

there is no "problem" with PUA/Seduction, if you're a RP man, stop looking for one and learn that shit.
women's attraction protocols are different and considerably more nuanced then men's. Men's are heavily based on looks, women's consider a large number of nameless variables and qualities instead. All of which can be gamed with good seduction skills.

circlhat · 2014-08-13T18:20:00+00:00

If all that matter was attraction we wouldn't need TRP.

2014-08-13T20:27:26+00:00

Anyone who grows up in the hood knows that sadist and psychopath behaviors attract women like honey, regardless of the man's appearance.

Middle class kids are so docile that only the best looking and tallest get women.

Occams_Shiv · 2014-08-13T23:54:19+00:00

There is significant projection here. Men primarily are attracted to a woman's appearance, so we project that value system onto them, then experience confirmation bias whenever a good looking guy has an easy time getting laid.

The article makes a passing reference to social status as the only thing that really makes up for a lack of physical attractiveness, but I think they have the emphasis reversed. Social status is much more important than physical attractiveness. It is the best modern proxy for dominance that women have to go on.

GLL is a for profit site seeking to help men increase their physical attractiveness. There is nothing wrong with this, as lot's of guys need help with it, and it's much easier to increase by spending time and money than status is. No website is going to turn you into Dane Cook, or the conductor of a symphony, or a fucking congressman. You have to do that yourself.

So naturally they are focused on what they can sell you. But don't succumb to the female frame. Men improve their appearance as a tool to raise their social status, in order to attract women. Women improve their appearance to attract men, in order to raise the social status.

Too much of this bullshit and we'll all be wearing makeup.

squarehead93 · 2014-08-13T18:04:04+00:00

I completely agree with this article. Most of the guys I've ever seen who are truly successful with women are very good looking. Now perhaps this gives them extra confidence and an abundance mentality, which helps, but it's those things on top of their looks that get them through the door.

My only beef with this article was that it could be boiled down to just "TL;DR: looks matter a LOT." Sure, there are plenty of low-SMV guys who focus too much on game, and this is a good wake up call. But I think this article offered little help or encouragement to guys who don't already look like Brad Pitt, which would only encourage guys aware of their low SMV to be complacent. Discovering the truth needs to be coupled with action.

Fat? Exercise and eat better. Short? Lift and wear clothes that make you look taller and flatter you. Ugly? Exercise and wear flattering clothes. Try to find interesting hobbies and develop a good career.

These articles are only so useful if they're not giving low SMV guys advice and solutions to make themselves more attractive to women.

AngraMainyuu · 2014-08-13T19:32:46+00:00

At best, this whole article seems greatly oversimplified. Seen too many fucking ugly ass dudes score with decent looking women, to know better.

GayLubeOil · 2014-08-13T21:08:27+00:00

Attractive foreign men have no priblem fucking women despite their limited language proficiency.

sir_wankalot_here · 2014-08-13T21:40:09+00:00

[permanently deleted]

Entrefut · 2014-08-13T17:16:50+00:00

Conclusion... Go to the gym

Blaw40 · 2014-08-13T21:14:49+00:00

Ahhh glad you guys found goodlookingloser. I actually haven't been on TRP in awhile because GLL was so good. While you all are at it, check out Danger & play and Bold & Determined.

PlusGoody · 2014-08-13T23:28:07+00:00

Status is everything, game is very little, and what little it is simply leaning on how women otherwise would perceive your status. How important looks are to status varies tremendously. In an environment where power / wealth or wealth potential doesn't matter (high school, ONS scene at Club Med), looks are pretty much everything. In a situation where power and wealth matter tremendously, looks hardly matter at all.

Doomsday_ · 2014-08-14T01:10:16+00:00

The author has a very limited definition of "game" as a series of lines or techniques.

Bloggers like Roissy and Roosh embrace a concept of "game" which includes aspects like style, social skills, and swag factor.

LastRevision · 2014-08-14T05:35:23+00:00

1) look good

2) be fun

3) hold frame

A lot of blue pill guys manage to get laid by unwittingly combining the above three but then fall to shit once the ~~long-con~~ long-term relationship begins.

cooltrip · 2014-08-14T13:16:09+00:00

I agree in the following terms: the greatest sexual success a man can aspire to, the perfect ideal, is getting sex without need of game; that is, the very lack itself of game is a necessary and definitional part of sexual success. So, not only is game wrong, but the very nonexistence of game is required, even if game itself could render some positive outcomes sometimes. The perfect sexual success is the one based on a man's handsomeness and on all that man's good qualities that stimulate women's sexual desire without that man performing any game. The perfect sexual success is the sexual success a man gets because he's so attractive to women that women themselves are the ones attempting to have sex with him and running "game" as an attempt to have sex with him.

Obviously, if the perfect male sexual success requires no male "game" by definition, then no man can achieve that perfect sexual success by way of "game", since the lack of game itself is definitionally required.

Furthermore, this means that even if a man could get to have sex with a woman by way of "game", he doesn't want to get sex this way, since it is not the "alpha way" (and the red pill revolves around becoming an alpha, doesn't it?). In other words, even if you can get sex by choosing among either a) only gym, b) only game or c) gym + game, if you want a perfect, alpha sexual success, then, by definition, you have to choose a) only gym (without game).

The lack of male game is not just something that could be present within the male perfect sexual success; male game needs to lack in order to make the male sexual success perfect, alpha-type.

However, lack of male game is necessary, but not sufficient. For a perfect sexual success, a man needs to be additionally handsome and attractive-without-game.

You have the right to try to get sex by way of sole game without handsomeness; but this is not "alpha", you will be getting sex as a beta (which we dismiss on the red pill).

If you don't simply want to get sex, but you want to get it as an alpha as well, then you have to be handsome and you can't perform game; that is, you have to get sex by way of "attractiveness-without-game".

So sometimes I find r/trp forgets this simple principle: you don't want to have sex as a beta, you want to have sex as an alpha.

circlhat · 2014-08-13T15:28:51+00:00

the problem with PUA , low smv guys are incentivised to do it women hate low smv guys, no matter how tight is his game and how high did he build himself at the moment association is made, people adapt.

soon enough guys will learn to do handstands and talk from the other opening for openers, thats jsut the way things are.

DistanceSkater · 2014-08-13T19:51:36+00:00

Money > Social Status > Face > Body > Personality

The soon guys accept this, the better.

Title	The Problem With PUA/Seduction Explained Pretty Well
Author	thispickle
Upvotes	51
Comments	57
Date	August 13, 2014 3:01 PM UTC (11 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/TheRedPill
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/TheRedPill/comments/2dfxdh/the_problem_with_puaseduction_explained_pretty/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/TheRedPill/the-problem-with-puaseduction-explained-pretty.228706 https://theredarchive.com/post/228706

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