Maintainer of Linux told by female contributor his "violent" language is "not acceptable"; interesting discussion on "professional" versus "frank" communication

Stephen_Morgan · 2013-07-16T05:39:31+00:00

Because if you want me to 'act professional', I can tell you that I'm not interested. I'm sitting in my home office wearing a bathrobe. The same way I'm not going to start wearing ties, I'm also not going to buy into the fake politeness, the lying, the office politics and backstabbing, the passive aggressiveness, and the buzzwords. Because THAT is what 'acting professionally' results in: people resort to all kinds of really nasty things because they are forced to act out their normal urges in unnatural ways.' -- Linus Torvalds

nigglereddit · 2013-07-16T06:44:42+00:00

Her message:

Seriously, guys? Is this what we need in order to get improve -stable? Linus Torvalds is advocating for physical intimidation and violence. Ingo Molnar and Linus are advocating for verbal abuse.

Not fucking cool. Violence, whether it be physical intimidation, verbal threats or verbal abuse is not acceptable. Keep it professional on the mailing lists.

The message containing "physical intimidation and violence"

I tend to hold things off after -rc4 because you scare me more than Greg does ;-)

Have you guys seen Greg? The guy is a freakish giant. He should scare you. He might squish you without ever even noticing.

Greg might be a giant and he might squish people without ever even noticing, but that's just a grave, deadly physical threat no real kernel hacker ever feels threatened by. (Not much can hurt us deep in our dark basements after all, except maybe earthquakes, gamma ray eruptions and Mom trying to clean up around the computers.)

Are you fucking kidding me?

Thank fuck Linus didn't immediately bend the knee to this bullshit and stood his ground and called her out on her professional victimhood.

This video is worth watching:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PNzxdxTM5UI

jonnytechno · 2013-07-16T12:08:05+00:00

Linus Torvalds - CREATOR of Linux

ragingpineapple · 2013-07-16T07:44:20+00:00

She can fork her own kernel. Where Getting Shit Done, takes a backseat to the feels. Something tells me she won't, since there's obvious advantages of working with Linus of all people. Whether Linus can be an ass is largely irrelevant to what they're actually trying to accomplish. She's not conscripted (heh) to volunteer. The door is wide open for her to walk through it.

I know another guy, who's now dead, but who was attributed to another successful venture. And there had always been complaints about his attitude towards people as well. His results spoke louder than his faults, largely. Linus, like Jobs, is an asshole. But he's one effective asshole.

Eryemil · 2013-07-16T08:17:47+00:00

All I hear is "waaaaah, my feels!".

4man · 2013-07-16T05:06:34+00:00

If they don't like his language, work with someone else.

2013-07-16T06:20:30+00:00

http://marc.info/?l=linux-kernel&m=137390362508794&w=2

This is the message. Ah bloo bloo bloo. Sometimes people need a kick in the ass. Sometimes bosses swear, call you names, and tell you to get your shit together. Sometimes they're right, sometimes they're wrong.

And yes, many, many women in the business world are shielded from this, especially when said boss is male. The reasons why should be self-evident.

Here's a few more of Linus's:

http://marc.info/?l=linux-kernel&m=135628421403144&w=2

PlayMeWhile · 2013-07-16T05:48:57+00:00

She has a whole blog related to ~~hacking the kernel~~ bitching about women not being praised enough in tech:

http://sarah.thesharps.us/

nigglereddit · 2013-07-16T08:35:29+00:00

Left this comment:

Any adult could switch on their TV and hear language a hundred times as bad as any of the examples you posted.

I appreciate that you’re offended by this, but I think you should consider that this simply may not be the show for you. Sure, it’s R rated – and so are many movies, TV shows and stage shows. If they’re not to your taste, you switch off and go someplace else.

Getting out of your seat and telling the director he has to change the show – a show which thousands of other people are enjoying, people who revel in its frankness and bawdy language – isn’t a mature way to deal with being offended.

It'll be interesting to see if she allows it.

theAnalepticAlzabo · 2013-07-16T13:44:44+00:00

When the hell did people start calling words "violent?"

Whisper · 2013-07-16T05:58:27+00:00

Threat narrative.

2013-07-16T11:04:52+00:00

Obligatory Stephen Fry quote

“It's now very common to hear people say, 'I'm rather offended by that.' As if that gives them certain rights. It's actually nothing more... than a whine. 'I find that offensive.' It has no meaning; it has no purpose; it has no reason to be respected as a phrase. 'I am offended by that.' Well, so fucking what.”

2013-07-16T14:40:35+00:00

Linus' response was really good. He did a better job than me, I would have told her to fuck off.

jhihoihiohohoi · 2013-07-16T16:13:18+00:00

http://theredpillroom.blogspot.com/2012/08/the-male-social-matrix-back-to-sandbox.html

Male social dynamics have two major parts: the first in which men are tested for their fitness for membership, and the second in which having passed the test they are accepted into the group almost wholesale. I don’t see this in female social groups (in fact I see the opposite – immediate superficial acceptance, followed by an undercurrent of obfuscated and passive-aggressive challenges from the inside).

...

And then there's this other thing: the tendency of those first "female pioneers" in the Sandbox to attempt to re-write the social rules after they were grudgingly included. In most Sandboxes that means dialing down the achievement bar to make the initiatory challenge easier . . . for other girls. That's because they're playing by Swingset rules, which mandate that everyone strive for consensus and equality, and not by Sandbox rules that mandate that everyone be judged by their individual achievements and their individual contributions to the group. So when that first girl comes in, after she's been around for a while and you just start to forget she's there, she'll often suggest that next time you change the challenge criteria to make it "easier", "simpler", and "more fun and fair for everyone".

...

... the leadership was developed under the Sandbox rules with a mission in mind, and the Swingset isn't mission-driven -- it's process driven. When you start trying to promote the process over the mission, you dilute the commitment and the determination of the entire group to achieve. The point isn't to make sure everyone has a good time or has a fair chance -- the point is to build the bridge, win the war, get to the top of the mountain, beat the record, win the championship, that is, to actually achieve something.

Making the entry challenge and conditions easier might actually be "more fun and more fair", even for the boys -- but you don't get the bridge built. With two or more girls in the mix, you can bet that they will make a scene about how the bridge is getting built and not let anyone get anything done until their concerns are met, they've been listened to, their opinions have been debated and discussed, and a decision that they approve of has been made.

That's also why men, when confronted with the invasion of all-male space by women, often retreat and re-form their group instead of trying to contend with "equalizing" the Sandbox. They want a group dynamic where achievement, not consensus and affiliation, are important. They want to get the bridge built, not have fun -- building the bridge IS the fun.

phukka · 2013-07-17T00:16:04+00:00

Sounds like she should find a new project to work on. Like growing the fuck up.

Mr_Rivers · 2013-07-16T10:13:34+00:00

I used to play all the time in a game where racist, bigoted, violent threats were commonplace (like literally every post)

We won tournaments year after year. Being good has nothing to do with how nice you are to others.

rottingchrist · 2013-07-16T11:27:05+00:00

How long before she starts claiming to be the recipient of "rape and death threats"?

2013-07-16T15:42:10+00:00

How do I then justify this threatening language on her blog under the heading of "No more verbal abuse" ?

If you dare, you can also reply to my LKML email.

Muffinizer1 · 2013-07-17T01:50:19+00:00

My good friends dad is a head guy working on the Linux kernel, (basically he approves and disapproves code) so this is kinda interesting. I always thought his line of work was above this stuff.

Perpetual_dissident · 2013-07-16T05:14:48+00:00

I think that guy is way off. I have known other episodes in the past where he goes unnecessarily vitriolic about non issues. I think the guy has issues too.

btw, linux sucks.

Title	Maintainer of Linux told by female contributor his "violent" language is "not acceptable"; interesting discussion on "professional" versus "frank" communication
Author	hierophage
Upvotes	49
Comments	36
Date	July 16, 2013 2:41 AM UTC (13 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/1idwkw/maintainer_of_linux_told_by_female_contributor/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/maintainer-of-linux-told-by-female-contributor-his.1168662 https://theredarchive.com/post/1168662

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