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The circumcision “debate” is missing the point: adults can do whatever they want to their genitals. No one gets to carve up a baby’s hoochie!

actanonverba8

September 21, 2013

149 upvotes

http://judgybitch.com/2013/09/20/the-circumcision-debate-is-missing-the-point-adults-can-do-whatever-they-want-to-their-genitals-no-one-gets-to-carve-up-a-babys-hoochie/

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Post Information

Title	The circumcision “debate” is missing the point: adults can do whatever they want to their genitals. No one gets to carve up a baby’s hoochie!
Author	actanonverba8
Upvotes	149
Comments	140
Date	September 21, 2013 1:24 PM UTC (12 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/1mu48q/the_circumcision_debate_is_missing_the_point/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/the-circumcision-debate-is-missing-the-point.1163275 https://theredarchive.com/post/1163275

Comments

[–]5th_Law_of_Robotics 40 points41 points42 points 12 years ago (17 children) | Copy Link

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that's not what i asked you. i said is one in a million "quite a bit more" than zero?

keep in mind that your chances of getting polio from the polio vaccine are higher than your chances of losing your dick to circumcision. so are you going to forbid your children from getting immunized against polio too? a disease that only currently exists in 3 countries on earth? isn't that something that's pretty pointless to immunize against? why run the "quite a bit higher than zero" risk?

from speaking to men who have had sex both ways, there doesn't seem to be any reduced sensitivity during sex from what i hear. i think alot of the junk you're talking about there is so rare its basically non existant and you're using it to justify running from a common and safe surgery

30% of the world's men are circumcised, more or less, and there aren't millions of dick-crippled men crying their eyes out everywhere. i have nothing bad to say about uncircumcised men but this scare mongering against circumcisions only undermines the case you're trying to make

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I cannot understand how so many men can think it's no big deal that a doctor surgically sculpted their manhood before they were old enough to speak.

I think it is important but I'm not shocked or upset because, in my conscious memory, I've always been circumcised. I am also one of the men for whom my circumcision was performed competently and I have none of the obvious side effects. That doesn't for a moment mean I support circumcision or agree with it, but I have no experience to compare with. I think my view of my own circumcision would be very different if I had a memory of my uncircumcised state.

I oppose circumcision because surgical alteration of an infant, when no medical reason indicates it is necessary, is wrong; I believe in bodily integrity. I count myself lucky that, as a small mercy, my doctor at least did a good job and I have a healthy penis.

[–]Solesaver 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

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[–]Eryemil 1 point2 points3 points 12 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]Solesaver 1 point2 points3 points 12 years ago* (1 child) | Copy Link

That is not my intent, and I apologize. As I have mentioned, I do support the movement. It is just difficult to get enthused when this point is always floating around in the background, and I would be willing to bet that it is enough to turn some happily circumcised men off from the point entirely.

I'm no psychologist, but irrational defensiveness about a perceived insult sounds relevant. If more intactivists would phrase their arguments like OP and disown the elements trying to denigrate the circumcised penis, IMO they would attract a lot more support.

An anecdote to demonstrate where I am coming from. There was a thread that advocated calling intact men 'intact' rather than 'uncircumcised' to remove the negative connotation of 'un-' implying that they hadn't done something that they were supposed to. I have no problem with this. Then, in the same breath people were advocating calling circumcised men 'mutilated' or 'incomplete' instead of 'circumcised' to add a negative connotation to the act. Why did I have to actively defend my desire to not be called 'mutilated' against people who were explicitly saying I was less of a man (hurr, hurr, semantics) because I was circumcised?

This is the kind of thing I'm talking about. I stayed because I care enough about the goal that I don't want its activists to alienate the very men they are trying to reach by insulting their genitals and manhood. Most probably left the discussion even more determined to continue infant circumcision to spite wackos telling him that his penis is wrong.

[–]Eryemil 1 point2 points3 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

It is unfortunate that the truth in this case is a double-edged sword but it is one we must nonetheless wield. People must be informed of the damages of circumcision and that ultimately leads to circumcised men coming face to face with some ugly truths.

The argument presented by judgy bitch might seem fair to you, but as a long-term intactivist, it is obvious to me (and it will be to anyone that is familiar with the subject) that it is incomplete and vulnerable to attack.

Here's a secret for you: intactivists are aware of the emotional hurdles that circumcised men have to jump through in order to accept our message, and we are prepared for this. There is a reason most of the grass roots efforts are focused on mothers and not fathers. I would never say that we've abandoned men as a lost cause, I will talk to a man as readily as a woman, but we've certainly accepted that the easiest way to reach them is not through trying to change their minds but through their partners.

A minority of circumcised men will be self-aware enough to understand the truth in what we speak regardless of how unpalatable; you seem to be one of these. But it is not our efforts or tone that has achieved that but your own superior nature that sets you apart from the overwhelming majority of circumcised men out there.

[+]HoChiMiner -26 points-25 points-24 points 12 years ago (20 children) | Copy Link

[–]JimmyTheIntern 27 points28 points29 points 12 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]Bhorzo 24 points25 points26 points 12 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]intoto 12 points13 points14 points 12 years ago* (1 child) | Copy Link

I am circumcised and I KNOW I am missing out on sexual pleasure. While many men have issues with premature ejaculation, a significant percentage of circumcised men have the opposite problem. While that means that I can have sex for hours, it also means that it is very difficult for me to have a quickie. Even if I don't have an orgasm for a week, it is still difficult. I have to focus and my partner has to touch me in just the right way to achieve orgasm.

While many men probably wish they had this problem, I can attest that it is not positive. Women often take the difficulty I have in having an orgasm personally ... that I must not think they are pretty enough, or when they see me "focusing" ... they think I must be thinking about someone else. All the explanations and assurances in the world can't whitewash the feelings in the moment.

Personally, I think that circumcision has broad psychological implications. I think it affects the bonding of newborn circumcised boys with their parents in those first few weeks of life when the baby is suffering from a surgical operation that ripped away a sheath that protects a mucus membrane. The baby is in pain and cries more.

That lack of bonding manifests itself throughout life. In general, I think circumcised boys have more difficulty with relationships as a child, then when they get older, with their significant others. I think that such people are more likely to be cold-hearted, paranoid, and bellicose.

The physiological effects are for life. 80% of the nerve endings of the penis are removed. The lubrication from the pores that were removed is gone. The glans, which is normally a mucus membrane, is transformed into just another piece of skin, with nerve endings buried under layers of cells that would not normally be there.

I have known women who have had many partners. While they like that I can have sex for a long time, they don't like the friction, and how much lubrication is required, and they often grow tired of the effort required for me to have an orgasm. What seems like a treat for them at first ... over time ... they appreciate less ... and less.

I've also had sex with women who have had multiple partners who were intact and few who were circumcised. They sometimes appreciate the novelty of the circumcision, but are honest in their evaluation that the penis was damaged by the circumcision ... and that intercourse and even touching is not the same. It is interesting that they are very gentle with the penis, very lightly touching it ... until I explain that it is pretty much numb and that light touching has little effect. But that is what they are used to, and then they realize that I don't feel the same sensations that intact men feel.

In a perfect world, circumcision of anyone for anything other than medical necessity would be illegal, for any child.

Routine circumcision has far-reaching, long term effects ... physical, psychological and social. Almost all of those effects are negative.

[–]jmg83 6 points7 points8 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

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Braces are usually put on older children that are capable of voicing their concerns. They also do not involve loss of functional tissues or structures.

Really? You should educate yourself

"Both intra-oral and extra-oral tissues are at risk of damage during orthodontic treatment."

"Reports of the prevalence of enamel damage after orthodontic treatment have varied. In one cross-sectional study, 50% of individuals undergoing orthodontics had a non-developmental enamel opacity... Another study found that, even 5 years after treatment, orthodontic patients had a significantly higher incidence of enamel opacities than untreated controls."

As well as Enamal Fractures, Periodontium, Pulp Damage, Root damage, Nickel Sensitivity issues among others

http://eprints.whiterose.ac.uk/401/1/bensonpe6.pdf

[–]Eryemil 4 points5 points6 points 12 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[+]SwordfshII -7 points-6 points-5 points 12 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

it degrades the penis.

I have never seen this proven anywhere.

Secondly, it doesn't say exactly what damage is incurred here and whether it is permanent.

Enamal and roots dont grow back... Neither do cracked teeth or most damage with the exception of gingivitus

Circumcision involves the irreversible reduction of penile volume, cutting your gums does not.

Damage to permanent teeth does not reverse itself, and gum issues were only one of many

As for the rest, these are all risks that must be taken into account when a cost-benefit analysis is conducted on a case by case basis

This is done by parents for their kids

undergo these treatments should be informed of—and which they should be able to understand before they are subjected to them.

Why would this matter? A minor cant consent.

[–]Eryemil 2 points3 points4 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I have never seen this proven anywhere.

It destroys almost all of the penis' fine-touch sensitivity. It destroys one of the two most erogenous parts of the penis. It exposes fragile mucous membranes to friction and dehydration which buries surface-nerve endings under layers of cornified skin cells. It radically reduces the distance the penis can displace its length without friction. It reduces the size of the penis.

Enamal and roots dont grow back... Neither do cracked teeth or most damage with the exception of gingivitus

Once again, we're talking about risk vs. certainty and the extent of damage. It gives us the risk of enamel damage but not the extent and doesn't say provide any stats on the other issues.

Circumcision on the other hand is a guaranteed loss of about two thirds of total penile surface area, half of the penis' mucousa, a section of the dartos muscle etc.

It also depends on what is gained; not all orthodontic procedures are purely cosmetic in nature, which your stats do not take into account.

Why would this matter? A minor cant consent.

Consent to what? Children are not the property of their parents. It obviously varies from country to country but that's more of an indication of which countries respect the human rights of children and those that do not. In some places parents can marry off their 8 year old daughters.

For the most part, parents cannot force their older kids to undergo invasive procedures unless their lives are at risk.

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So you would be okay with parents tatooing their babies, or getting eyelid removal surgeries, toenail removal surgeries, things of that nature? If not then you're a hypocrite.

The baby's consent is only relevant when the surgery is completely unnecessary (and damaging).

It's incredible you see no difference from a parent getting a necessary or medically viable/helpful surgery or procedure for a child, and them mutilating that child with a completely unnecessary nonmedical archaic surgery.

Imagine trying to force a circumcision at any age except for then the baby or child is absolutely helpless or defenseless. Imagine trying to force a 7 year old to strip for a doctor, take an anesthetic or a pain number, and then have his penis disfigured and mutilated. Imagine it with a 10 year old. Or a 15 year old. It's absurdity.

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i was disagreeing that its damaging, in any real way

and for some people its necessary religiously

and i honestly dont give 2 shits if a parent wants to remove their kids toenails. i mean you know some people put those big plates in their kids lips, right? or those rings around their neck to stretch their necks out? people do all kinds of weird shit to their kids, depending on their cultures. and i don't care. The right to raise your kids as you see best is just as much of a right as life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness

if you think your kid needs a stretchy lip, or no toenails, or purple hair, or a iphone, that's on you. doesn't mean that's what i want for my kids, but unlike some people here i'm not a giant fucking hypocrite about it and say "oh sure those people in africa can stretchy-neck the shit out of their kids, that's fine, but circumcision is EVIL!"

people all over this world are doing as they see fit, just because circumcision is a trendy thing to object to at this moment in Western society doesn't mean its materially different than a hundred other things that parents do to their kids every day

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The foreskin is supposed to be there

so's your appendix. and tonsils. and wisdom teeth. i had 8 teeth pulled when i was a kid, adult teeth i mean, and they were all "supposed" to be there

i'm circumcised and i dont resent being that way at all. i agree not doing it is better than having a kid who can't shut up about how they've been mutilated but i would hope the level of hysteria about it on this board is pretty rare

i couldn't care less if you are or aren't circumcised, or what you want to do with your kids, i'm just pointing out that "well its not necessary" isn't stopping us from doing dozens of other medical things to our kids every day so i dont see that as a valid justification. its a bad argument because you're appealing to emotion instead of fact

"well i just dont want to" is totally valid, as far as i'm concerned, if it matters to you

[–]jmg83 4 points5 points6 points 12 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]jsh1138 -5 points-4 points-3 points 12 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

they said as i got older and my 12 yr molars and wisdom teeth came in that i wouldn't have room for all of them

that's assuming that i didn't lose any teeth in an accident or anything. my parents didn't bother to wait and see, they just had them pulled, which is fine

as it turns out, i didn't get all my 12 year molars or wisdom teeth because of a genetic trait that runs in my family, so now i only have 3 teeth on my bottom right side. so, as it turns out, pulling all my teeth was a bad thing to do probably

but it was done in good faith and with the best info available at the time and i'm fine with it. but my dentist pulled my teeth, healthy teeth, based on an expectation of what might happen that proved to be wrong. and society, and you, and me, is fine with that, and there is no difference between that and circumcision really

people do what they think is best for their kids. for some people that includes circumcision. its nothing to launch a holy war over

[–]jmg83 2 points3 points4 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

No one's starting a holy war over anything. If this debate gets more and more people to question what they would otherwise take for granted, then I say that can only be a good thing. I've read a lot of stuff in which people say they regret having their son cut if they knew then what they know now, then they would never have done it. Parents don't always circumcise their kid with his best interests at heart. Sometimes it's done out of pure selfishness.

We all have stuff about ourselves we'd change if we could. Some people wish they were taller, some people wish they were thinner, some people wish they were better looking, etc. What would you change? There's no to tell me, just think about the question. If I could change anything about myself, one of them would be circumcision. Even from a purely aesthetic perspective, I don't like it, especially when I get women asking me questions about it, as though I chose to be this way. I used to put condoms on quickly just to avoid all that shit.

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