AVFM's Paul Elam on interfering with crimes, particularly rape. Not sure I agree with this either.

Leinadro · 2013-10-24T05:57:09+00:00

Those moms that are blamed when their children are abused, is their motherhood attacked or is their womanhood attacked? I recall a few years ago about a case where a girl was gang raped in front of multiple witnesses. For some odd reason the question was "why didn't anyone do anything?" but "why didn't the male bystandards do something?".

And for the rrecord I don't get into that "which gender is better " stuff either.

oneiorosgrip · 2013-10-23T17:50:19+00:00

As he said, you are not an unpaid bodyguard. Would a woman step in to protect you? Call the police and move on. Just like you would do if you saw two guys fighting.

And he's saying that they (female rape victims) have enough resources, therefore he does't need to care about them.

I think that you're either don't fully understand what he's saying, or you feel the need to protect women.

oneiorosgrip · 2013-10-23T18:47:25+00:00

It's sad that it's come to this.

That said, I'd like to encourage increased compassion for your fellow human beings than to decrease it. I don't care if it's a man or a woman, I'm stopping harm if I can.

Mitschu · 2013-10-24T00:43:32+00:00

So, when we tell women to consider taking action to prevent rape, it's rape apology and victim blaming, but when we tell men they don't have to take action to prevent rape, it's rape apology and perpetrator enabling.

And nobody sees the base implications of that, because of cognitive dissonance.

No. What some of you are arguing is that it is a man's responsibility, and a man's responsibility alone, to make sure that women are protected and safe.

Fine.

Get back in the kitchen (barefoot and pregnant), make me a damn sandwich, and I'll resume being your protector and provider.

That's the trade, no negotiation, take it or I walk. Maybe you can find someone else willing to undersell themselves, though. Good luck.

You want my security and resources? I want regular access to sex. I want three cooked meals a day. I want children that can never be taken away from me. I want unquestioned respect.

You want the benefits of traditionalism? Fine, that is a game humanity has played before, and well enough to get us here.

You don't want to give me any of the benefits of traditionalism? Fine, we can play that game, too. That's where society currently stands.

You want the benefits of traditionalism, but you don't want to give me any of the benefits of traditionalism?

No.

But don't worry, fight off your attacker with your own power. You know, grrrl power? The power you get from not needing a man like a fish doesn't need a bicycle?

I've gotta get home and make myself a sandwich.

Welcome to equality. Hurts, doesn't it?

tallwheel · 2013-10-23T21:13:49+00:00

[permanently deleted]

2013-10-23T19:46:24+00:00

This started off with the google transcript, but I have listened to it, and cleaned it up.

0:00 there's another side ?? that does need to be brought out here 0:04 that well I was surprised I didn't hear John ( the Other) cover 0:08 but I'm going to. You know the fact of the matter is 0:12 on this is a complex issue but one of the issues that we address 0:16 in this movement 0:19 is that a lot of men have begin to decide through some strange reasons that 0:23 we're not the world's unpaid bodyguards 0:25 uh that we don't owe it to anybody intervene 0:29 to a crime happening to a stranger 0:32 including a strange woman to us. I know that when I was in New York 0:37 Elizabeth Vargas really went for the jugular 0:40 on me regarding John's video. 0:43 And of course insinuating, no she did not insinuate, she said that she would 0:49 intervene 0:49 on a rape all 47 pounds of her 0:53 soaking wet she would get pounded like a 0:56 football ?? if she was lucky. 1:00 But of course she was talking from a chair in the studio 1:04 and not out on the streets in a real crime scene where her life and limb would be at risk if she did anything 1:09 so in other words she was just talking out of her ass 1:13 well but the fact of the matter is that 1:16 We have people, academicians like Mary Koss 1:20 University of Arizona professor who works heavily 1:24 in relation to use the CDC's, the Center for 1:27 Disease Control, her work has made it into the FBI 1:31 who has most actively made sure that male 1:34 rape victims don't exist in the eyes of the public don't exist 1:38 in the eyes of law enforcement or researchers. 1:42 Well I don't find it particularly hyperbolic 1:46 for a man to say I'm not gonna give a damn about female rape 1:49 victims anymore. They have tons of money, 1:52 of law enforcement, of special programs funded by government 1:57 of social consciousness. 2:00 The schools have take back the nights rallies 2:04 everything you can possibly think of and perhaps some of that 2:08 is possibly justified but they work actively to make sure that as 2:13 victims of sexual assault, that men are totally marginalized 2:17 and ignored. They infact don't give a damn 2:21 about male rape victims they in fact prove it 2:24 with their academic work and with their legal work. They prove it 2:28 with their political and gender activism all the time. And 2:32 again, what are these double standards? They do it in real life in real 2:37 practice 2:39 and nobody says a word. John the Other 2:42 makes a video because he's angry 2:46 at dealing with these clowns (?) doing this stuff that "I don't give a damn about 2:49 rape 2:50 victims" and it's something to terrorize his reputation with. 2:53 I stand behind John for making that video. It's a personal choice. 2:58 I don't know if I would take it down. 3:01 I don't blame him for doing it. I wouldn't blame him 3:04 if he didn't do it. But the bigger problem, the real problem here, well we 3:09 gotta be careful 3:10 to clean up our own porch and to correct our own mistakes 3:13 is that we better not ever forget that when it comes to really 3:15 marginalizing 3:17 rape victims to proving that you don't give a shit about what happens to 3:21 people 3:21 nobody has anything on feminists when it comes to subject to 3:25 the subject of rape. Nobody. And I don't wanna let that go without that being said.

mister_ghost · 2013-10-24T00:20:07+00:00

"I don't give a damn about female rape victims" is a terrifyingly callous way of putting it. Why not 'a woman is not inherently worth more than me, and I am under no obligation to risk my life protecting her'

There are some situations where you are, I believe, obliged to help someone. For example, if you see someone put something in someone's drink and the would be rapist leaves them alone, you should certainly tell the target.

If it's the fairy tale rape at knifepoint, You should probably call the cops.

Suggesting that people should help each other when they can is a testament to empathy and kindness. Saying that men are obliged to put themselves at risk in defense of women is a testament to just who our society empathizes with.

Vtwinman · 2013-10-24T06:45:59+00:00

You know, I've watched a few of the threads, and I have to say that I really don't know if this is the libertarian wing speaking, or what. No, I am not a paid security guard. I am a member of a society. Humans formed societies for mutual benefit, and just because one part won't hold up their end, that doesn't mean that I drop mine. I would never walk past violence occurring without at least calling the police.

mister_ghost · 2013-10-23T20:53:35+00:00

So what you're saying, Paul, is that since feminists don't care about male victims of rape and you think that's wrong you plan to disregard female victims of rape because two wrongs make a right? This is really putting the MRM in a good light and showing we're capable of taking the high road, thanks so much eye roll.

MRMRising · 2013-10-23T17:05:41+00:00

Everything that comes out of those guys is pure genius if you ask me and I'd advocate the same myself. I'd walk the longest detour around if I heard something suspect up ahead because otherwise you'd just get pointed out on the lineup and even dunked in gunk from the real rapist it's just going to be cased closed or something similarly ridiculous. Also by not doing anything about it you really stick it to the feminists and show that their shaming tactics don't work. I say hightail it out of there. It's much like with ransoms and terrorists. If you do what the terrorists want you to you're not ever going to solve the problem. Then there's just going to be more terrorists. Same with shaming and feminists. If you intervene that's just a ramp up in male bashing "anti-rape" posters and all of these awful male bashing campaigns. I'm going to have to throw that one woman under the bus rather than all men everywhere.

MRMRising · 2013-10-23T23:46:52+00:00

I will start caring about woman's protection when I see woman caring about men's protection. I'm not holding my breath. Now that MHRM issue's are comming to light, woman who have never before even thought about these issue's, now become all humanitarian.

typhonblue · 2013-10-23T20:12:45+00:00

I think Paul's statement is self-serving bullshit and I think John the Other's statement he would walk around a rape in progress knowing it was a horrible crime out of his anger at feminists is despicable and shameful.

Here is what Tod Kelly says, and it matches my beliefs and fears to a tee.

the MRM might just have the single worst political instincts of any civil rights groups I have ever encountered. In fact, as you will see if you read the Beast article, the movement’s insistence on pushing aside its more moderate leaders in favor of its most comically vitriolic makes it untenable for a mainstream politician or policy maker to align themselves with MRM causes. (Imagine if you will the effectiveness of the 1970s feminist movement if it had publically rallied around its Andrea Dworkins and marginalized its Gloria Steinems. Or if the Civil RIghts Movement had bet all of its chips on Stokley Carmichael and left Martin Luther King, Jr. as an unknown without a flock.)

Many of the MRM’s critics (and believe me, there are a hell of a lot of them) worry that having the MRM in the public spotlight might be damaging to women. I highly doubt this, if only because I question the movement’s ability to persuade anyone outside of its own sphere. Which isn’t to say I don’t worry that the movement might be damaging; I do. I worry that the MRM might be doing the most damage to the very people it sets out to help. Public policy changes need either mainstream public support or heavy political clout. As it stands, the MRM has neither, and, worse, does not appear have any interest in taking even the smallest steps to change that fact.

You'd have to be a total dumbass and possible sociopath to make John's statement as he made them and believe that somehow this was some form of affirmation of men and rejection of feminism that would move men's issues forward by one iota.

You'd have to be a total dumbass and possible basement dweller to make John's statement and not realize that feminists and mainstream media would use it against you, 110% of the time.

As my old pappy used to say

You deserve this frame. It was built for a dummy and it looks good on you.

It's the continual statements like John's and still so many others at A Voice For Men that tell me there is no way to send links to avfm around facebook to families and friends, and that includes my very close family that totally understands the hell I live through.

It scares me that AVFM is up and coming because it tells me nothing is going to happen this go around and I'll have to wait some more to find leaders that don't have their heads wedged up their ass.

My suggestion for John the Other who is so angry with feminists or so fearful he might be charged as a rapist is the next time he encounters a rape to call 911, to take photos on his cell phone, and then to bravely run away.

But to claim your act of anger and cowardice is noble, brave, or payback?? Thanks for nothing friendo. Next life, consider joining the human race.

Ivan_Fackoff · 2013-10-23T19:50:11+00:00

Not many blue pillers would agree with this without being labeled a coward. This is the white night's primary sticking point. HOWEVER from equality perspective bilateral concepts of chivalry have been destroyed and no longer valid. Just like man cannot exist without a woman traditional masculinity cannot survive without traditional femininity. Feminists eradicated all or almost all concepts of traditional femininity.

vaselinepete · 2013-10-23T22:43:26+00:00

While Elam and AVfM get coverage, the MRM is never going to be given respect by the mainstream.

Title	AVFM's Paul Elam on interfering with crimes, particularly rape. Not sure I agree with this either.
Author	Vtwinman
Upvotes	21
Comments	162
Date	October 23, 2013 4:35 PM UTC (12 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/1p258b/avfms_paul_elam_on_interfering_with_crimes/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/avfms-paul-elam-on-interfering-with-crimes.1160591 https://theredarchive.com/post/1160591

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