Feminism really the enemy?

tomek77 · 2010-05-30T19:09:12+00:00

Feminists in feminist organizations that shape public policy, are absolutely rabid man-haters! (The current legislative situation that men face can be directly attributed to them)

ON THE OTHER HAND: Feminists in your day-to-day life aren't necessarily man-haters (although some definitely are), but they are usually not involved in organized groups and therefore not influential.

If you are an equality feminist (as opposed to gender feminist), you should get involved in organized feminist groups, and influence their position on things like shared parenting, due process regarding false allegations, the f*cked up child-support system, men's lack of reproductive rights etc...

I am still waiting to see ONE major feminist group come forward in support of shared parenting. Until then, they have no sympathy from me..

nlakes · 2010-05-31T03:01:20+00:00

Hi Linnbe,

Thanks for this post. I'd like to tackle a few of your points now and see what you think.

Most feminists I know look at feminism as a equalist movement

Most feminists that I know also equate feminism to equality. However, I've recently had discussions with numerous feminists that went like this:

Many men do not like the gender-exclusive name *fem*inism, but strive toward equality also. We should start a new movement with the goal of equality and work together.

There response was along the lines of: feminism is by definition equality; all that is equality is feminism - this new movement would just be another feminist movement, ergo you should just join us.

These people were more interested in playing a semantics game with the dictionary, than working in good faith toward equality with men who didn't want to be labelled with a gender-offensive title feminist.

So I reject the notion that feminism is an equality movement. Many feminists seem more concerned with preserving their power and status; perhaps for nostalgic reasons, than equality.

And there are other reasons I do not consider them an equality movement which I mention later on.

They think that the only way to get rid of injustices is to encourage men to be nurturing as much as encourage women to be self reliable.

They view everything through the paradigm of 'patriarchy'. For example; if a women doesn't get promoted - it therefore must be due to a patriarchal boss that doesn't view her as a worthy candidate because she is a woman.

There are numerous studies that practically disprove the patriarchy-hypothesis; however most feminists I've encountered simply reject these studies out of hand because they do not confirm feminist beliefs.

Any group that would reject a study because it does not serve it's agenda is not a movement for equality; they're a movement who serve their own purposes.

There are countless other examples of this; but the main point I want to make is feminists blame patriarchy for everything and they generally aren't interested in having an honest discussion considering alternate causes of inequality. They're offended by the very notion that patriarchy isn't the root cause of most inequality.

Also, many feminists actually fail to fight for men's rights - this is the most important point I'd like to make and have it heard. Many men are asking for help and complaining about; unfair child custody arrangements, unfair treatment in accused rape-cases, and unfair treatment in accidental-pregnancy - and these so-called equality minded feminists are telling us that we've no reason to think these things are unfair. Which only goes to show they exist to preserve the privilege of women. They won't even listen to us guys on these matters, yet alone fight for our equal rights in them.

They already "know" what is affecting men and that's all they're prepared to fight for; they not listening to the real concerns that guys have.

Most feminists are your friends.

Most feminists advocate affirmative action i.e. easier entry for women into Uni. This is because, as they say, women have it harder in life (the pressures on women/societal expectations etc). Therefore men have privilege and get an easier lot in life.
Aside from this being BS, not corroborated by any facts, it actually costs men in life because men with better grades have to give way for women at Uni who very probably didn't have it any harder than the guys whose place she took did. (If you want to pursue this line of argument there is another post I made a while back that I can link to).

Affirmative action ≠ equality. Equality of outcome ≠ equality. Equality of opportunity = equality.

Then there is the matter of the non-existent pay-gap, where feminists want to pay women more than men.

So I reject your claim that feminists are our friends. In closing, may I ask you this?

If feminists are our friends, why do they ignore many men who say "we are concerned about x, please help us fight for this cause (see my examples mentioned earlier)"? Also, why do they fight to give women an easier lot in life; higher-pay and an easier path to uni?

kanuk876 · 2010-05-30T20:39:15+00:00

Most feminists I know look at feminism as a equalist movement

Actions speak louder than words. I'm tired of listening to feminist dogma.

They think that the only way to get rid of injustices is to encourage men to be nurturing as much as encourage women to be self reliable.

There's a difference between:

1) reinforcing "stereotypical" biological predisposition, which few people support,

2) broadening acceptance of non-stereotype behavior, and

3) attempting to override/replace biological predisposition through social engineering.

I support #2 as do most men I converse with.

Feminism has actively pursued #3 for at least two decades, which I find downright evil. This is the whole "gender is a social construct" bullshit which neuroscience disproves on a regular basis.

Undaunted by science, feminists push their social engineering agenda into places like elementary school, where boys are now drugged in an "ADHD epidemic" and charged with sexual assault for hugging a female's classmate or teacher (to pull just two recent examples from the top of my head).

The feminist social engineering agenda encourages boys to become "nice guys" and we all know how that's turning out.

A lot of our behavior is founded in both genetic predisposition and our asymmetric roles in the male-female mating game.

encourage men to be nurturing

Except those "nurturing" guys cannot get dates. And you are partly to blame because you lied when you told them that "nurturing" was an appropriate way to accomplish his goals. You didn't tell him that 99% of women would put him firmly in the "friends" category... because you and feminism don't give a shit whether he can attract a mate or not. This is a very gynocentric view -- taking reproduction for granted because women's ability to reproduce is not normally at risk.

encourage women to be self reliable

This is just a power-play by feminists. I have two problems with this.

First, a woman living on welfare or receiving child support cheques is not self-reliable. She's fully supported by working men and women.

Second, dependence is only evil if you want your cake and eat it too. Feminism is about getting from men their reproductive advantage (ie: wealth) without having to give up women's reproductive advantage (ie: womb, childbirth).

This is a raw deal for men. And it will end. And the ending will be much uglier than the compromise which existed before and which feminists threw out the window decades ago.

Fathers should get legal support for parental leave for their baby.

Agreed. But women are not losing anything by this, so it's not surprising we agree.

Subsided daycare makes it possible for parents in low pay employment to work full time if they choose to.

And who do you think is providing the subsidy?! What happened to independence?

We're going in circles. And we'll continue to go in circles forever because feminists like yourself refuse to acknowledge that, in the real world, it is impossible to get your cake and eat it too. It's against the laws of physics. If a woman is not paying her way, someone else is, often a man. Alimony disguised as child support is the obvious contemporary example. On this point the MRA stance is simple: men demand recognition for our contribution. We're tired of being taken for granted, taken advantage of, lied to and stolen from via higher taxes.

What subsidized daycare really means to women is they can viably raise children without the father around, disregarding the social ramifications for the children and everyone else in society.

They don't think a man should just "man up" when he is victim of a crime, he should get help and justice.

No. You are a liar. Again, actions speak louder than words.

Look at the outcry from feminists over the attempt to give anonymity to men in the UK accused of sexual assault. If you and your ilk were for justice, you would not be lying about the incidence of false rape accusations. 2% my ass.

"Men who are falsely accused can learn from the experience". Justice, you say? Really?

They guys that comment female-on-male sexual coercion or rape as "she could do that to me!" It seems to be more men then feminists that laugh at male victims of DA.

I agree. And this is where men and women differ. Men's relationships are made tenuous from the strain of competition, more so than women's. Therefore we see a lot of issues where men are the predominant cause of male suffering. Two other examples:

most circumcisions are decided upon and performed by men and male doctors
male judges are more likely to hand out pussy passes

What we MRA's don't appreciate is feminists and women playing their "poor me I'm just a defenseless woman" card at every opportunity, pitting men against men in these situations.

For example...

"Circumcision may be bad, but FGM is much worse..." (ie: who gives a fuck about male circumcision, we need laws to ban FGM in our country despite the fact that nobody practices it here).
"I was afraid of my husband, he abused me, (therefore I chopped off his penis, shot him in the back with a shotgun, etc.)"
"More men die of suicide, but more women attempt it" (which is a mischaracterization of the situation, but I digress)

When feminists are willing to give up their stranglehold on "victim hood", maybe we can talk. Until then, piss off.

Most feminists are your friends.

To me, most feminists are irrelevant.

The Mens movement is not anti-feminism, it is pro-men. There's a difference. But 99% of feminists (and plenty of men) don't understand or acknowledge the difference.

I am offended by you and your feminist ilk who keep trying to frame mens' issues in feminist terms... thereby erasing many critical men's perspectives from the discussion.

For example, women and feminists have manufactured today's child sexual abuse paranoia. This draws attention away from the facts that (a) only 7% of child abuse is sexual, (b) male children are the predominant victim of other forms of child abuse, and (c) women are well-represented as perpetrator of other forms of child abuse.

Your obsession with child sexual abuse has left 93% of child abuse victims completely in the dark.

To which I say, with all due respect, please fuck off. We're here to talk about the other 93%. I know that bothers you. Too fucking bad.

In short, I'm done talking to you. I talk to the men in the room. In /r/MensRights we talk to each other about issues which affect us as men. I realize you might find the concept of men talking to men frightening; too fucking bad.

Extremists are a problem in any group

Another point we sadly agree on.

*TL;DR: *

I refuse to talk in feminist circles anymore, blithely ignoring issues critical to myself and other men.

Every time I see a feminist in here trying to make peace, they try to frame the discussion in feminist terms. Which just coincidentally neglects most of the issues we talk about here.

I'm here to talk with men about men's issues, not debate feminists about the legitimacy of men's issues.

AnnArchist · 2010-06-04T04:07:01+00:00

The problem is that feminists only advocate actively for women. They are not the only ones who need an advocate.

Thats why they are mostly not allies. That and they have worked to pass anti-male legislation consistently over the years.

hpm7022 · 2010-05-31T14:14:30+00:00

[permanently deleted]

cryptogirl · 2010-05-30T17:40:59+00:00

I agree. Although they're often conflated, men's rights ≠ anti-feminism. I'm a feminist and I support men's rights.

XFDRaven · 2010-06-04T08:54:49+00:00

There are no feminists who are friends. There are women who can be friends, but a person who groups them-self with Feminism is not someone that should be considered a friend.

The foundation of feminism is to gain political and social benefit through claims of "unfairness" by being a perpetual victim. Supporting anyone who enables this behavior is doing no less of a harm than someone who enables and feeds another person's drug addiction. Positive change in society cannot happen when the group in question is in the high of their addiction. Like a drug addict, it needs its perpetual fix to feel justified and that fix is victimhood. For that to happen, there must be someone around to blame and luckily enough for feminism (as it's loosely bases itself upon sex) it can blame men. It can only exist when there is separation between the two sexes. Libraries of Feminists works exist to support this, and small handfuls of feminists will come out to dispute this with token offerings of mostly unadopted written works.

The OP states that most feminists view it as an equality movement, but how much of the marketing promise is delivered? The basis thrives on either receiving a new member who has had a poor-to-bad experience already or someone with whom the group can twist and distort the situation into a black-and-white condition to upset them with sexist behavior. It isn't any different than TV stating that we're all going to be murdered horribly because serial murderers are around every corner, or like the Astrologers/life-coaches/psychics being so overly vague that everyone feels "yes! that's me!" They buy in because they instantly feel that they're a part of the group, but little if any positive equality comes from it. Instead what happens is the perpetuation of misandrist policy.

When I point the finger at the /2X crowd, I do so because even if many of those women are not explicitly anti-male, they're enabling the feminist addiction which uses all of us to sustain itself. It exists solely to maintain a divide, which is why as more information comes out about how closely things really are now, the less it seems to matter. I think it's safe to say that most people in the Men's Rights subreddit have seen this behavior from people who claim to be feminist. They point out the logical issues with the modern message of feminism and fall upon deaf ears and only become more frustrated.

If there is a person with the patience to try and work with a person with the feminist kind of addiction, then awesome they're a greater person than I. But I have seen addiction to drugs and alcohol and I do not associate with those people, I similarly choose not to associate with people of the feminist addiction either. Not because the person is inherently evil or bad, but because their addiction makes them bad while they're on it - they aren't friends unless you share their addiction.

2010-05-30T18:48:25+00:00

That's beautiful. However, most feminists are not the ones helping pass off sexist legislation and practices to please the mainstream public and electorate who doesn't know or care what this "real" feminism you're talking about looks like.

And when we – or more vocal free-thinking feminists, like Susan Pinker – criticize the ones who are actually having (harmful) impact on society, those "real" feminists often turn against us before turning against their misguided peers.

So I'm sorry, but as far as I'm concerned, in practical terms there's not really much of a difference.

yoosanaim · 2010-05-31T09:08:25+00:00

Do you know, I think that there is enough bullshit among some feminists to warrant harsh criticism. It's pretty ironic and tragic that those proponents of womens rights who get hold of power (in the UK at least) seem to be tossers (or maybe I'm biassed against them because they're politicians...).
What I find interesting in this subreddit though, is that where some cultures value criticism/undervaluing of women as a fundamentally masculine trait, some people here seem to value criticism/undervaluing of feminism as a fundamentally masculine trait. So it's hard to discuss with the majority of reasonable people on here (who are quite rationally criticising individuals/subgroups of feminism), because the "Feminism SUX" Troll Oil tends to float to the surface and kill all the Discussion Dolphins.

kloo2yoo · 2010-05-30T18:58:06+00:00

http://www.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/bh5pu/faq_13_why_cant_you_understand_that_its_it_just/

2010-05-30T19:00:32+00:00

They think that the only way to get rid of injustices is to encourage men to be nurturing as much as encourage women to be self reliable. Fathers should get legal support for parental leave for their baby. Subsided daycare makes it possible for parents in low pay employment to work full time if they choose to. They don't think a man should just "man up" when he is victim of a crime, he should get help and justice.

the only reason feminists support men in this area is because they want women to earn more then men.

When it come to other issues, issues that may in fact prove to be a disadvantage for women, any support goes out the window, along with any alleged values of fairness of opposition to sexism.

You are a supporter of a special interest group that perceives the welfare of women as being more important then anything else. To pretend otherwise is to be very dishonest.

kloo2yoo · 2010-05-31T11:58:10+00:00

[permanently deleted]

2010-05-31T15:23:47+00:00

Most feminists I know look at feminism as a equalist movement.

The moment an egalitarian movement focuses on the equality of a gender over another, it stops becoming an egalitarian movement. Feminism is not equality(the name itself is a pretty good indication of this). Not only that but the justification they use to legimitize their claims and actions are that women are oppressed, generally by men, which is very harmful to men in both that they are painted as the enemy(even if this completely false) and in that their issues(whether worse or the exact same) are overshadowed by those affecting women.

Also, more often than not, the attitude I get from feminists(second or third wave) about men's issues are "it's not our problem, men have to deal with their own issues"(all while expecting any issues that affect women to be considered as mens issues and human's rights issues and benefiting from a lot of male support). As long as feminism considers men as a "them" instead of an "us", they are not about equality.

They think that the only way to get rid of injustices is to encourage men to be nurturing as much as encourage women to be self reliable.

Where? As a nurturing man myself, I have not seen this. Ever. In fact, the most active proponents of the anti-nice guy misnomers I have seen on TwoX/feminisms were self-proclaimed "equality feminist"(some of which were actually quite hateful and biased against men).

I also see a lot of women willing to accept all the good that feminism has provided them with but I see very little willing to take on the bad that comes from it too(which creates a pretty big imbalance against men), yet I see so little effort actually ever being done by feminism towards this. I would say about 90% of all feminist activism being done(at least from what I have seen) is just "men are broken/misogynistic/etc, this is what we need to do to fix men". Where is the activism directed at women? Where are the feminists fighting for men?

Like, for example, it's one thing to support stay-at-home dads(well, for whatever little support there is, it's not too uncommon to see those nurturing men be labeled as losers/doormats/co-dependent/etc even in feminist circles) but where are the feminists supporting female sole-earners to support those stay at home dads(If anything, what I have seen is that quite a bit more feminists support women of high income in their greater sense of entitlement and then label it empowerment)? One cannot exist without the other, to ignore this is simply hypocritical.

Or, another example, how often do you see feminists criticize the gaming/movie industries for misogynistic games/movies(even when they really aren't) or games/movies that aren't designed with the female interest in mind first. Those games/movies are made by men(who put in a lot of time, effort and hardships to get where they are), with male interests and fantasies; it is a form of expression, of-course they are going to reflect that in their content. So, instead of just attacking movies, games or the entire industry for not catering to their particular feminine taste(which, honestly, just seems like quite a sense of entitlement), where is the effort to respect the gaming/movie industry, to recognize games as a legitimate medium/form of expression and to engage more women to put in real effort/devotion/hard-work into the field?

There may be a lot of feminists who say or believe that they are helping men(I see a lot of feminists use this "I don't have anything against men. Look! My best friend is a man!" approach) but, whether they realize it or not their actions really aren't helping men, let alone actually egalitarian. Feminists may not be the enemy but they aren't really part of the solution either(don't get me wrong, I do think mens rights could use all the help it can get, whether from feminists or otherwise, but I also want those people to help because they genuinely care about men, not because it will benefit them in some other way). If it was ever truly egalitarianism, it wouldn't be called feminism and there would be no need for men's rights movements(When I came here, I was above all else an egalitarian and could not have cared less about the men's rights subreddit but, after spending some time reading, observing and arguing on the twoXC and feminisms subreddits, I see a need for a men's rights movement now more than ever).

2010-06-10T17:28:59+00:00

If Feminists are our friends, how come they have, almost to a person, absolutely NO idea what we find important.

You people ROUTINELY take Feminist goals, and try to characterize them as MRA goals.

They are not.

We want equal LEGAL rights to women in every regard. We want an end to AA programs for women, because they are increasingly not only unnecessary, but detrimental to men and society.

Your PHMT argument is as old as the hills, and STILL has zero relevance to the Mens Movement.

If you were REALLy a 'friend', you would be focussing on what WE want, not what you think we should be striving for, or what YOU think is a relevant issue to fight for/against.

As a group, your arrogance is astounding.

ristin · 2010-06-01T02:47:48+00:00

That's what feminists say but not what they do in practice. Same goes for MRA's. Why?

Because both are operating from a world-view that their gender is always the persecuted one and the other is always privelaged. So even if provided clear and obvious proof that their preferred gender is not the victim...they won't start supporting the other they will shift attention to something else.

For example where are the feminsts who support fathers having custody rights or even child visitation privelages?

The "our movement is about gender equality" line is a complete and utter lie. Feminists or MRA's who say so should be called out for it unless they actually practice what they preach.

So Linnbe, can you point to even a single example of a feminist championing men's rights? No? well until you can please stop perpetuating the lie that feminism is about gender equality and that feminists support men's rights not only women's rights.

AmazingMaze · 2010-05-30T20:45:22+00:00

Short answer: yes.

2010-05-30T23:56:05+00:00

a few feminists may be thsi way but most are man-haters especially the ones with power

mangina7 · 2010-05-30T23:38:13+00:00

though i am a troll i do feel strongly about these issues. i am a misogynist-feminist, that is a vagina-lover who also fears vaginas. the fear I think comes from a recognition that humans with vaginas are naturally more powerful/magical.

As men we begin by suckin' on the tit of the female. we are immediately mindcontrolled by the female. yeah, i hate chicks for that, but c'mon boys, ain't nothin' we can do but love those vaginas as they're served to us.yes, my ex-wife left me to become a whore. for a long time i considered all women to be gold-diggers, but the 4 vaginas i've serviced this year have taught me differently.

yes boys, mangina7 has had a 4-vagina year, and since I ain't got no cash they don't love me for the cash. they love me because they see the feminine in me, the little girl inside as you will. boys! we all got little girlies in our deepest selves. what's most deep and ancient in us is the feminine. when we recognize this we know the truth: we're all feminists now!

that said, a word about men's rights. we have the right to say no to the open vagina. we have the right to not get our dicks cut off unless we want them cut off or turned inside out. Of course we're all trannies deep down. reconcile the opposites, boys! let the little girl within kiss the little boy within. remember jack and Jill? that hill is in your head/heart/genitalia. let's play doctor right! let's not spill the water! let's make lover's of enemies! let's embrace the ineluctable thrust of the feminist revolution which will save us all.

ps: feminists have the tightest pussies. and they'll let you fuck them in the ass unlike other girls. peace

Title	Feminism really the enemy?
Author	[deleted]
Upvotes	17
Comments	129
Date	May 30, 2010 5:19 PM UTC (16 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/c9nqs/feminism_really_the_enemy/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/feminism-really-the-enemy.1049304 https://theredarchive.com/post/1049304

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