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How do you feel knowing that fathers can be barred from welcoming their child into the world if the mother wishes?

myalias1

March 12, 2014
14 upvotes
/r/MensRights

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/03/11/1283781/-No-right-for-Father-to-be-present-at-birth-over-Mother-s-objection-NJ-Court-gets-it-right

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Post Information
Title How do you feel knowing that fathers can be barred from welcoming their child into the world if the mother wishes?
Author

myalias1

Upvotes 14
Comments 41
Date March 12, 2014 6:19 AM UTC
(12 years ago)
Subreddit Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/207kml/how_do_you_feel_knowing_that_fathers_can_be/
Archive Link https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/how-do-you-feel-knowing-that-fathers-can-be-barred.1002851
https://theredarchive.com/post/1002851
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Comments

[–]Black_caped_man 16 points17 points18 points 12 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Being present in the room at the moment of delivery? You know I can understand that many fathers would want to be there, but I'd give the final say to the person actually pushing a child out of her body in this case.

Getting to see and meet the child after vitality and stuff like that has been checked by doctors? Both parents should have equal right to being in the presence of their child.

[–][deleted] 6 points7 points8 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

If the mother does not want the presumtive father in the delivery room fine, it's shitty(the relationship is estranged), but fine. The only thing about the the case I don't like is the father does not have to be informed of the birth or the location of his child per the ruling of the court. By not informing the presumtive father of the birth you end up with the situation we have in Utah. This limits the man's rights to assert paternity or challange paternity. Also the best interest of the child could be (it's unlikely) undermined by not having the father there in case of very rare medical condition of poor delivery.

[–]Ma99ie 6 points7 points8 points 12 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Sooooo, whose advocating that a woman, going through a highly vulnerable state of giving birth, with all the pain and her vagina exposed, should be required to have someone in the room? That's ridiculous

[–]tango646 -3 points-2 points-1 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I am sure he already saw her vagina exposed about 9 months before.

[+][deleted] 12 years ago* (14 children) | Copy Link

[permanently deleted]

[–]monkeyhousezen 8 points9 points10 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Considering it is a medical procedure on her, that is okay with me.

Came to say precisely this.

I do think that anyone who's name is affixed to the birth certificate as the father needs to notified immediately as that is a legal document with far reaching ramifications but there's no pressing need for a ring side seat for the birth.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points4 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Agreed. Just deal with her afterwards, but let her get through childbirth in "peace"

[–]Silentemus 1 point2 points3 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I agree. This is a medical procedure on her not him. I would be really angry at my SO if this happened to me however.

[+]nigglereddit -9 points-8 points-7 points 12 years ago (10 children) | Copy Link

It's also a medical procedure on his child, the most important procedure of the child's life in fact.

Why should the child not have the right to the love and support of its father, and the father have the right to give that love and support?

[–][deleted] 5 points6 points7 points 12 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link

I not 100% sure but if your kid is having surgery aren't you barred from the operating room?

[–]nigglereddit -1 points0 points1 point 12 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

Not for all medical procedures, no - only those where your presence would be a problem.

In childbirth that is clearly not the case, since many fathers are in fact present.

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points6 points 12 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

My point is, the presence of parents, during a medical procedure, is a privilege (and I hate using that word) and not a right.

I'm not sure if you have children or whether you were at the delivery room but getting the woman to relax is an important aspect of childbirth. My wife didn't want anyone besides myself and the medical staff in the room. She even didn't want her mom there even though her mom insisted. So, to me, it makes total sense to bar the father from the delivery room if the mother objects. Anything that prolongs and/or complicates the birth is dangerous for the child therefore if you are a parent that wants the best for the child, you'll respect the mother's wishes.

[–]nigglereddit -3 points-2 points-1 points 12 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

You're joining two separate things in an extremely dangerous way:

if the mother objects

anything that prolongs and/or complicates the birth

These are categorically not the same thing. So we cannot reasonably conclude that the mother's simple objection should overrule the father's right to be at the birth of his child. Creating a rule whereby one parent can just object, and by objecting remove the other parent's right to see their own child is totally unacceptable.

[–][deleted] 5 points6 points7 points 12 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

These are categorically not the same thing.

When a mother gets upset at childbirth, she can slow down and even stop the process. The birthing rooms are setup to make the mother at most at ease so that this doesn't happen. At certain point of the delivery the process stopping is dangerous to the child. I'm sorry, this is nature, men and women are different. In this case the woman is delivering the baby and the man is not. In this case the feelings of the mother do carry weight and the feelings of the father do not.

[–]nigglereddit -4 points-3 points-2 points 12 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

When a mother gets upset at childbirth, she can slow down and even stop the process.

I really don't know where you got this idea. Childbirth is by nature stressful and difficult but women do not have conscious control over contractions, enabling them to somehow stop the birth.

In this case the feelings of the mother do carry weight and the feelings of the father do not.

We're not talking about the father's "feelings". We're talking about his rights. His right to be present at the birth of his child and his child's right to have him present.

You are arguing that a woman's feelings - subjective, temporary feelings - should be taken as absolute law and allowed to override the father and the child's RIGHT to be together.

That is not reasonable in any way.

If you feel this is reasonable then think about this: if we created a law saying that after the birth, the father could simply take the baby away and object to the mother seeing it, and that this should override any right she has to see her child for as long as he sees fit, would you support that law?

If you don't, you need to explain why you support an identical but opposite ruling which says that fathers can be kept from their child by the simple objection of the mother.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points4 points 12 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

I really don't know where you got this idea.

I should stop to convince you as you seem like pretty adamant in your views and this is starting to get boring but take a look here.

"In early labor, catecholamines (the stress hormones) have the potential to stop labor. When a woman is very frightened—of pain, of the hospital, of the unknown—labor fails to progress. Contractions can become very strong and difficult to handle or, more typically, they become weaker. In both instances, the contractions become ineffective. Why should this be so? For animals giving birth in the wild, fear of predators in early labor triggers catecholamine release and labor stops, giving the animal time to move out of danger before labor begins again. Catecholamine release and the temporary shutdown of labor protect the animal and her young. When birth is very close, a surge of catecholamine takes place and, now, the result is quite different. A fetal-ejection reflex appears to occur. In the wild, when birth is very close, getting the baby animal out quickly allows the mother to move to safety."

We're talking about his rights.

What rights? You already agreed that the parents doesn't have exclusive rights to be with his/her child at all times:

"Not for all medical procedures, no - only those where your presence would be a problem."

In this case the presence of the father is a problem. Reasonable enough for you?

[–]nigglereddit -3 points-2 points-1 points 12 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

If this was genuinely a widespread problem and not an opinion piece you dug up, fathers would be barred from the delivery room all the time - but as we have already established, they are not.

You are claiming that a woman objecting is the the same as a medical problem.

This is false.

What rights?

His right to be at the birth of his child and his child's right to have its father there.

And you did not answer my question: do you support the idea that a father could remove his child from the mother and object to her seeing it, and that this should override ANY right of access to her child she might claim?

[–]Juan_Golt 2 points3 points4 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Completely ok with this. I'm 100% pro-fathers rights, but I don't see possible justification to have it any other way. In any hospital/medical situation the patient should have complete control. Are there really MRAs out there who don't get this?

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points5 points 12 years ago* (5 children) | Copy Link

It feels morally improper ' alienation of the father ' but we're talking about estranged people here so it's not a legal issue. This isn't about fathers, this about a man who is no longer with a woman.

[–]nigglereddit 1 point2 points3 points 12 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

This isn't about fathers, this about a man who is no longer with a woman.

He didn't stop being the child's father when he stopped being the woman's partner.

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points6 points 12 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

OK but he lost the right to see her shit off the end of the bed (common occurrence) and her taint split open from pushing (also common). He doesn't have a right to be in there. He should be informed of birth and for signing the certificate though.

[–]nigglereddit -4 points-3 points-2 points 12 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

No, the mother lost the right not to shit and split when she chose to have the baby. Those are her responsibilities caused by her choices.

They are NOT caused by the father or any decision of his, and it is deeply irrational and bigoted to expect him to suffer for them. Yet again you are seeking to punish the father and child for the mother's decisions.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points4 points 12 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

why are you saying "yet again" that was my first comment. i didn't question her right not to "shit and split" i questioned whether someone else had a right to witness that; which they don't. parents don't get to be in operating rooms when their child is going under the knife, so a dude that hasn't seen a woman in 9months or so definitely has no rights in this regard. you sound like a feminist being controlled by emotions.

my last line clearly stated the father should definitely be informed of birth and be there for certificate signing, that ensures seeing the child; hospitals don't let you leave without signing the certificate.

[–]nigglereddit -4 points-3 points-2 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

i didn't question her right not to "shit and split" i questioned whether someone else had a right to witness that; which they don't.

Yes, they do. The father, the medical staff and the baby all have the right to "witness it". Because that is the result of her choice to have the baby: she created the situation in which the will be a baby, medical staff and a father.

Anyone not comfortable with those things should not be having a baby because they are the near-inevitable consequences of that choice. And accepting consequences is part of the balance of rights and responsibilities.

you sound like a feminist being controlled by emotions.

Well you sound like you have no real arguments and can't answer any of the points I raise, resorting instead to ad hominem attacks.

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points6 points 12 years ago* (9 children) | Copy Link

How does it feel knowing that girlfriends can be barred from watching your urologist tear into your sack during that vasectomy?

It's almost as if patients have rights that trump your feels.

Is this SRS and r/againstmensrights brigading this sub with idiots and retards, or are you actually all idiots and retards?

[–]unbannable9412 -1 points0 points1 point 12 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

How does it feel knowing that girlfriends can be barred from watching your urologist tear into your sack during that vasectomy?

That's a shitty comparison and you know it.

[–][deleted] 5 points6 points7 points 12 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Patient rights is not fucking complex or complicated, despite me being unable to dumb it down to your level of understanding.

It's an issue between the patient and the doctor. It doesn't matter the procedure. Fuck off into the waiting room and post angrily on your blog about it.

[–]unbannable9412 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Births are for women and women only, that crying thing that comes out of strong independent womyn is just an afterthought, like everything else.

[–]myalias1[S] -2 points-1 points0 points 12 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

Your sack is yours and only yours. The kid isnt just hers.

[–]Tusse 1 point2 points3 points 12 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Why should she let a man who no longer is her partner ogle her vagina?

And, requesting to be present at the vasectomy is reasonable by your logic --- after all, in many jurisdictions the wife needs to give written consent (since she is deemed to have a stake in his fertility) and she may want to verify that it really happened.

[–]myalias1[S] -2 points-1 points0 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

No one's there to ogle the vagina, believe me.

And no, no jurisdiction requires that, only some screwball doctors.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

If you're planning on sticking your dick in her vagoo she's just as much right to watch and verify your surgery as you do watching to verify her shitting out a small human. Those sperms, after all, are going to be entering her body. That makes your sack shared ownership.

So once again... fuck off into the waiting room and post angrily on your blog about it. Patient rights trump your feels. Even children have been given the right to keep their parents out during procedures if they express such a desire.

[–]myalias1[S] 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

You really are a twisted person. Glad we have you around :)

[–]govt_took_my_baby[🍰] 1 point2 points3 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

So? It's only a recent thing that fathers are in the room - they used to be outside waiting to hear.

Personally, I'm not sure how 'magical' childbirth, the blood, shit, pain, and screaming really is does father even have a place or role during childbirth? surely, the father is just getting in the way? Also, you'd never want to go goal-side anyway

[–]rightsbot 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Post text automatically copied here. (Why?) (Report a problem.)

[–]Tusse 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

More than one man found that that certain things are very difficult to unsee and a lot of women prefer them not to be there for that very reason.

[–]ILoveHate -2 points-1 points0 points 12 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

It's one of those things that is probably too complicated to answer in a thread posted a few hours prior. Honestly, I feel bad for the father, but I also don't think a mother should be forced to have the kid just because the dad wants to.

Nature has made this specific problem more complex by only having the mother bear the child. So only one person is involved in actually making the kid (fuck our laws and everything else for a moment).

[–]nigglereddit 2 points3 points4 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I also don't think a mother should be forced to have the kid just because the dad wants to.

What?

This case is about a father's right to be present at the birth of his child, not to force a mother to carry a child.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Please read article.

[–]unbannable9412 -1 points0 points1 point 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

but I also don't think a mother should be forced to have the kid just because the dad wants to.

If we're at the point where it's being decided whether the father should be present during the birth, no one made her carry the child to term, she chose to.

I don't even know where that came from or what it's relevance is.

So only one person is involved in actually making the kid

Gestating and reproducing are two different things.

[–]AnnArchist -1 points0 points1 point 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I dont have a problem with it.

I would not be opposed to allowing cameras in the delivery room though.

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