[–]emperorhirohito 10 points11 points12 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]qoppaphi 26 points27 points28 points 12 years ago* (46 children) | Copy Link

Apparently, the idea that you should not stick your penis into an unconscious woman is extremely offensive to these fellas. Why? Who knows.

Because there's no equal warning against sticking an unconscious man's penis in your vagina. These ads, like most public discourse, paint all rapists as male and all rape victims as female.

What is their point, exactly? That they don’t want women to report rape? That they think it’s somehow wrong to suggest that men not rape? That they think rape is OK? What are they getting at here?

The point is to demonstrate just how easy it is to accuse someone of rape, whether or not any sexual contact --- consensual or otherwise --- ever occurred. You don't like their methods, fine. But people were accusing Mickey Mouse and Bugs Bunny of rape to draw attention to the fact that false accusation against actual people does happen and results in convictions.

While there are certainly men’s issues that are important (fathers’ rights, the fact that men can also be victims of domestic violence and rape, etc.) these groups tend to concentrate their energy on things like filing false rape accusations to prove that false rape accusations exist, having a week devoted to fat shaming women and insisting that women are to blame for school shootings because they’re not showering nerds with sexual attention.

Return of Kings is not an MRA website.

[–]Number357 5 points6 points7 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]oneiorosgrip 9 points10 points11 points 12 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

It's the typical dishonest feminist approach - equating drawing attention to the existence of false rape accusations to objection to consideration of accusations of rape, and to treatment of rape as a crime. MRAs aren't offended that people consider raping women rape, even if we are offended that people don't consider raping men rape. We object as a group to treating accusation by a woman against a man as a reason to sacrifice the man. Neither the nature of the accusation, nor the sex of the accused, nor the sex of the accuser constitute a reasonable excuse for denying the accused the right to confront his accuser, and the right to contest the accusation.

This anonymous process violates those rights. The accused doesn't get a hearing before having the accusation permanently attached to his name. He's just labeled with one of the most life-impacting labels you can slap on a person. And feminists are fine with that, because it suits their agenda. They're only not fine with defamation when they think it's happening to one of them.

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You'd actually be closer to being correct (albeit still wrong) if you said that all Muslims are Jihadists or that there's some overlap there than to say that about the MHRM and various outside groups. Calling these outside groups MRA's is closer to saying that Hindus are really Christians since they all worship something and teach some variation of the Golden Rule. While there are undoubtedly a few theists who worship mutually exclusive and contradictory religions at the same time (just as there are Christians who practice Voodoo), their existence is really irrelevant because they never seem to understand what it is that they profess to believe.

The people who identify as both pick up artist and MHRA simply don't understand one or both. And the people who want to conflate these different groups together are no better. Yes, it's true that once in a while a pick up artist might be concerned with his rights as a father or be against circumcision, but he will never be a real MRA because he supports male disposability and traditional gender roles to their absurd logical conclusion. There's just a lack of consensus between these groups and their affiliation typically ends in irreconcilable disagreement.

Feminists, too, sometimes label themselves as MRA's or even support particular issues in an enlightened manner, but no one is running around accusing the MRM of being in bed with the feminist movement. To put this into some perspective, we must point out that Suffragist leaders had gone on to be KKK leaders, that Prohibitionists have worked hand in hand with social conservatives and religious extremists, as did anti-sex Feminists ever since the Second Wave. These feminists have better be careful not to throw too many bricks at the MRM.

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Interesting.

You argue that since the MHRM does not have a clear consensus, therefore it is defined by what kind of self-identifying people it is comprised of.

I disagree with you, but let us for the sake of argument presume you are correct and that your logic holds. If you apply this reasoning, then you cannot pick and choose the properties you want to apply to us and discard the ones you don't.

Some members of the MHRM are identify as Christians, and some as Atheists. Some identify as Democrats and some as Republics.

By your logic, you must accept that Mens Rights Activists are ALL of these things.

You must also accept that since some members of the MHRM are vegans, some are feminists, some are thieves, some are soldiers, some are fathers, some are virgins, some are men, some are women and some are Chinese, that Mens Rights Activists are ALL of these things as well.

EDIT: I'll go one further:

You admitted some (not all) Mens Rights Activists are NOT pick-up artists. Therefore you must agree that Mens Rights Activists are NOT pick-up artists as well.

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[–]shady8x 7 points8 points9 points 12 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

Most male sex offenders are actually former rape victims of women. I guess boys being raped, telling raped boys that it was no big deal, that they were lucky and should be happy about their rapes, doesn't make the most well adjusted individuals...

sources:

"Male penitentiary inmates(56.92% of rapists) reported higher heterosexual contact as children than did college men(15.88%)." (Parameters of sexual contact of boys with women, 1987)

"59% of the rapists had been heterosexually molested." (Petrovich and Templer, 1984)

Other studies showed: 66% (Groth, 1979) and 80% (Briere and Smiljanich, 1993).

The last 3 of these studies are cited and discussed in: Matthews, Frederick. The Invisible Boy: Revisioning the Victimization of Male Children and Teens. National Clearinghouse on Family Violence, Health Promotion and Programs Branch, Health Canada (1996)

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[+]Meistermalkav -7 points-6 points-5 points 12 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

Oh, tl;dr:

"1. Women who drink themself stupid get raped. 2. Only men can rape. 3. don't be a rapist.

Feminists view: if you have a drunken woman on your couch, don't rape her. What is so hard to understand about that?

Male rights view: Not every man is a rapist. I get offended by the narrative that every man is a potential rapist.

my opinion: between the views.

On the one hand, I agree. If you have to fill up a woman to the brim, maybe not have sex with her, and leave her drunk ass at the bar. Not wife material anyway.

On the other hand, lets try something:

I have heard a rise in women mutilatring grown mens genitals. That is sexual abuse. Don't be the woman that sexually abuses men!

I have also heard that most women in diovorces are humongous gold digging whores who only want to clean the man out. marry a man because you love him, not because you love his money. Don't be a gold digging whore!

Or, even more to the pint: Thousands of guys get accused of rape, because feminists shame women into not liking sex. The men go to prison, the women slur the reputation of real rape victims and get nothing. Don't be a false rape accusing women.

Just as offensive, while the message can be interpreted in both a positive way and a negative way. No argument can be made against my "views", that cannot also be made, with a switched operator, against the feminist view. real problems, problematic phrasing.

priviledged.

[–]oneiorosgrip 4 points5 points6 points 12 years ago* (2 children) | Copy Link

Feminists view: if you have a drunken woman on your couch, don't rape her. What is so hard to understand about that?

Male rights view: Not every man is a rapist. I get offended by the narrative that every man is a potential rapist.

my opinion: between the views.

This is an incomplete description.

The feminist view treats that rape as something that happens because men don't know any better. It doesn't. It happens because criminals, those who actually commit the crime, don't care. Rape isn't an accident; it's the deliberate contravention of a person's right or ability to refuse sex.

The treatment of rape as an accident that happens because men don't know better rides on the treatment of men as amoral, insensitive clods who can't tell the difference between mutually interacting with someone and abusing someone. It's a false portrayal of male behavior. If someone lies about you by lying about why something happens, and blaming it on a characteristic or characteristics they falsely attribute to your segment of the population, being offended is the smallest response they should expect to face. Don't pretend it's necessary for feminists to dehumanize men in order to support women, because they don't have to do that.

[–]Meistermalkav 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

I fully agree. Not nice, not neccesary, and only part of a solution.

I mean, take it as it is: white radical feminists are one of the most universally hated chapters there is, even among feminists. If you have any qualms, just go to a PoC ( person of color) who is self identifying as a feminist and who is actvely trying to get heard, and ask her what she thinks of white radical feminists.

One of the unifying theories about white feminism is that they are habitual line stepping, in an effort to "raise awareness".

Let's raise awareness by comitting slander. Lets raise awareness by actually threatening violence. Lets raise awareness by raising awareness. Lets raoise awareness by shaming people about shaming us. lets raise awareness by screwing with facts.

Any critique of those methods, and you are automatically hating women.

I mean, it really is simple. Rape is horrible, and it seeds to stop, yes. We as men are found wanting to talk with other men, and if an other men mentions that he fancies raping somebody, it would be the decent thing to just go and stop him.

But does it need to target all the men, just to raise awareness?

How about, we target the females who buy other females booze? Sororities that fill "prudes" up to have them chill out? How about we talk about the femalers who allow other females to go to bars?

By the same token that men are guilty of other men raping, women are guilty of other women being gold diggers, man haters, penis mutilators and closet lesbians. After all, who brought the woman to the bar where she decided to get herself full of alcohol?

[–]oneiorosgrip 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Found wanting. Feminists are a trip.

The idea that men sit around talking about raping women is just as ridiculous as white radical feminists' methods. The idea that a campaign to tell people rape is bad is going to stop people who already know that and don't care is even more ludicrous. It's so ridiculous, in fact, that it indicates to me as a woman who has spent her whole life observing men, women, and feminist promulgation on both that the goal is not about preventing rape, but about spreading a deliberate imputation of malice against men - the combined ideas that rape is a standard, naturally occurring male behavior; that rapist is a guy's default state until someone tells him that's bad.

This is why, when I see the various responses to those campaigns, I really, really have to wonder about male feminists who support them. Looking at those posters, the first thing I thought was that anyone who is not rapey should feel lied about, and should be offended by the insinuation.

You have a good point about the guilt factor - that approach has been taken by Men's Rights Edmonton, who produced parodies of a local "don't rape" campaign called "don't be that guy" which insinuated the same things that the "teach men not to rape" campaign did. The parodies carried the theme "don't make false accusations," and used the same images. It was during the controversy that created that Karen Smith made her ridiculous claim that false accusations never happen, the reason behind the accuse-a-thon.

And honestly, she (and feminists) can't claim to be justified complaining about this, because 1) she argued that false accusations never happen, so these aren't real and shouldn't concern her, 2) feminists have consistently argued that false accusations are basically harmless unless the accused is guilty, so unless she actually raped someone, she's got nothing to worry about, 3) false accusations are far more rare than sex crimes, so the few who are falsely accused should just suck it up and take one for the (feminist) team, and 4) being falsely accused can have the benefit of teaching the accused valuable lessons... so she should just sit back and learn those like the rest of the falsely accused, and show some gratitude.
After all... feminists strive for equality, right? So false accusations against a female shouldn't have any different results than false accusations against a guy, right? And the fact that she's a victim's advocate shouldn't make any difference save that she should better understand the need for her own sacrifice, because feminism.
Otherwise, it's rather hypocritical for feminists to condemn criticism of false accusers or the system's vulnerability to and facilitation of false accusations.

[–]circuitology 1 point2 points3 points 12 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[+]Meistermalkav -6 points-5 points-4 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

You wanna know my own thoughts?

MRM, you are idiots. Not Idiots idiots, not retard idiots, but idiots in the sense that you did not see that coming from a mile away.

My suggestion on arguing in that case?

The MRM would like to cofund the poster campaign, if you would like to cofound our own poster campaign against genital mutrilation:

It reads: "Yearly, men and boys get horrifically disfigured, loose sensitivity in their most private places, and get sexual disfunctions for life as a result of accidents during male genital mutilation, aka circumsicion, just because they suffer from mothers unfit for raising a male child to the point where they can tell him to wash his privates without feeling ashamed, or that masturbation is natural. Don't be a sexually opressed unfit and "bad " mother and circumsice your child, no matter if it is a girl or a boy. "

Let them argue against this.

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Men’s Rights Activists target sexual assault victim advocate with false rape ‘accuse-a-thon’

Comments

priviledged.

Title	Men’s Rights Activists target sexual assault victim advocate with false rape ‘accuse-a-thon’
Author	roharareddit
Upvotes	46
Comments	75
Date	January 3, 2014 9:46 AM UTC (12 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/1uawe7/mens_rights_activists_target_sexual_assault/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/mens-rights-activists-target-sexual-assault-victim.1005264 https://theredarchive.com/post/1005264