If you would please, explain like I'm five...

ullere · 2012-10-17T03:21:01+00:00

Why feminists believe there is a wage gap?

Either...

There is a raw gap in earning between men and women in full time pay. This is provable and undeniably true, what this doesn't mean is that there is any discrimination or that a women earns 72% of what a man does doing the exact same work. When you adjust for other factors the wage gap disappears or reverses, none of the raw wage gap is provably a result of discrimination against women.
That the reason the raw gap appears is due to an over arching culture that advantages men professionally, things like men being encouraged more as young boys, or the myth that women cannot do math, etc, impact the abilities and choices that people make in their life and we as a society have a responsibility to correct the areas where this culture has disadvantaged women and minorities. This one is harder to disprove, essentially they are accepting that if women made the same choices as men then there would be no raw wage gap. They then place the reasoning for these choices at the prevalent oppressive to women culture in society, sometimes called patriarchy, or kyriarchy. However as every choice has an advantage and a disadvantage it is hard to hold to this theory as being an acceptable reason to address the end result of the choices people make. Equality of result is not the same as equality of opportunity and freedom. If you don't accept this theory then the wage gap is the result of the choices due to inherent natural preferances and biological differences in society, therefore the wage gap does not need to be addressed. If you do accept this theory(most feminists who do in some form or another) then you need to accept that along with adressing the raw wage gap you need to address all areas women are advantaged due to choices people make, such as a higher life span, or simply working less hours a week allowing for more lesuire time on average. This theory is in no way empirically provable, at best you can make meandering observations like women are pressured to stay at home, or men are pressured to work longer.

MRAs (I hope) do not refute that there is a raw wage gap, we do not believe that the existence of a gap is any evidence of discrimination. Not to say that discrimination doesn't exist anywhere in the workplace, only that as we live in a generally free market economy, and all laws prohibit discrimination, that the raw wage gap is a result of other factors.

Evidence for this is contained in a post i wrote earlier.

Wage gap myth consad study

'The report demonstrates that it is not possible now, and doubtless will never be possible, to determine reliably whether any portion of the observed gender wage gap is not attributable to factors that compensate women and men differently on socially acceptable bases, and hence can confidently be attributed to overt discrimination against women.'

forbes article on the wage gap myth

'Academics can debate why men and women make these different choices. The important takeaway, however, is that there are many reasons that men and women on average earn different amounts. It’s a mistake to assume that “wage gap” statistics reflect on-the-job discrimination.' Government accountability office study

‘Of the many factors that account for differences in earnings between men and women, our model indicated that work patterns are key. Specifically, women have fewer years of work experience, work fewer hours per year, are less likely to work a full-time schedule, and leave the labor force for longer periods of time than men. Other factors that account for earnings differences include industry, occupation, race, marital status, and job tenure.’

If the gap is not entirely explainable through non-discriminatory differences then why do young women out earn young men? With the huge claim of sexism and discrimination through out the work place that is affecting every women throughout her working career why does the gap reverse when it comes to those women who are under 30?

http://www.time.com/time/business/article/0,8599,2015274,00.html

Now the majority of this gap can be measured by life choices, more young women go the college etc, however the gap that remains doesn't automatically get chalked up to discrimination and sexism against young men as that would be an outlandish and farcical claim.

Now if the claim is that a raw un adjusted gap definitely shows discrimination, or that the choices willingly made by men and women that account for the gap are over arching effects of a discriminatory culture or system that disadvantages women, then I retort that In fact men who work part time experience a far larger un-adjusted gap in their earnings than women who work full time.

Economix article on part time wage gap

Average earnings of part time men in graph form

Screen shots of steps for graph

Source of graph data BLS

ignatiusloyola · 2012-10-17T03:38:46+00:00

Like you are five, eh? Okay...

So a while back, a study was done that showed that women make 77% of what men make. However, the study was very poor at explaining what exactly that meant. Since then, further studies have found varying values, such as this one that says 82%, and this wikipedia entry that says 59%. The range of all of these different studies should cause some distrust in their results, by the way.

It is not clear that any of these studies account for socialized gender differences, or biologically influenced choices, or simple historical trends taking their time in working their way out of the system. And the media uses the values to suggest a strong level of overt, systematic discrimination against women - along the lines of, "the male managers devalue the work done by women and therefore pay them less."

A few years ago, an organization known as CONSAD was hired by the US government to perform a thorough study of the wage gap that can be explained by overt discrimination. The results from this study found, "The report demonstrates that it is not possible now, and doubtless will never be possible, to determine reliably whether any portion of the observed gender wage gap is not attributable to factors that compensate women and men differently on socially acceptable bases, and hence can confidently be attributed to overt discrimination against women.". In other words, the numerical data, after accounting for occupation choices, industry choices, work experience, career interruptions, etc, does not indicate that any existing wage gap can be attributed to purposeful discrimination against women.

Other studies, like the the one done by PayScale found similar numerical results, especially at the lower income regions. However, PayScale found a residual pay gap at the high income ranges - which can be criticized easily by showing the low statistics in this range (which means that the data has a much higher uncertainty, and thus is more indistinguishable from the neutral state of "no wage gap"), and the fact that high pressure careers are more influenced by career interruptions, which is difficult to account for.

None-the-less, it is clear now that any existing wage gap is not due to employers specifically devaluing women over men. But the media, government and feminist organizations continue to tote the raw data values to try to make the point that discrimination does exist.

What such numbers cannot account for are socialized and biological differences. Socialized differences include such things as girls being told in school that they shouldn't go into math, or that girl role models tend not to be in business/science/technology. Socialized differences also include the possibility that males are raised to be valued for their ability to solve problems/provide for others, which pushes them to seek raises and promotions at a greater rate than women. Biological differences include the fact that women, being the gender that bears children, may have hormonal influences that sway their opinions regarding non-monetary issues in job choice. These include distance to travel to work, occupational hazards, vacation and flexibility options, maternity leave benefits, etc.

If people wish to include these differences in the "wage gap", then it is clear that women - being more than half of society - have to accept at least half of the responsibility for the situation. In which case, none of them are due to sexist discrimination. And perhaps we should accept that, knowing the reasons behind this, it may be possible that some women are okay with the residual wage gap since it a consequence of a system that allows them to have and raise children - an activity that many, many women express happiness and life-satisfaction from.

But no one seems to focus on the actual issues of social discrimination that exists against both genders - overt cases of actual discrimination. People are too caught up in numbers, and misinterpreting them to believe to be the issue. What I mean is the continued pressures and harassment of people who choose differently from the norm. Males who choose to be stay at home fathers, or who are denigrated (sometimes by their partners) for not making as much money as their partners, etc. Women in high positions, surrounded by people who focus on the statistical oddity of the position due to gender rather than the personal success of the individual independent of gender. Women who are denied jobs (I will not claim how often it happens) or advancements due to the perception that the woman will "mommy track". Etc.

There are solutions to the real problems in society, but these are ignored in order that certain organizations can push the idea that men are still dominating women in a patriarchal fashion. Politicians use this idea in order to try to swing more of the female vote. Feminist organizations use this to push for donations and lobby power. But none of them are really doing them to help women, and no one is considering the men who are also discriminated against in this system. And that is really unfortunate.

blackstonesinger · 2012-10-17T02:35:18+00:00

From the sidebar... http://www.reddit.com/r/MensRights/faq

sibqm_lmvm · 2012-10-17T02:37:43+00:00

The study that said women make 77¢ per dollar did not include variables. Women, on average, do not work as many hours or years, and often take time off for children and other things. There are many factors that lead to the average woman making 77¢ on the dollar. However, if men and women did the exact same work for the same amount of time with almost equal effort, then the woman would make about 96¢ on the dollar. The remaining few pennies? I chalk that up to biology.

oneiorosgrip · 2012-10-17T03:26:19+00:00

My thoughts on the existence or nonexistence of a wage gap are here

The image at the top was created to communicate the main body of my point, but there is clarification below it, along with a few more points.

Feminists like to talk about a wage gap like it exists in the amount they state, and as if there were no other differences between men and women in the workplace. They use the phrase "equal work" as if performance, attendance, dedication, and risk are equal between men and women in every position in every profession. They're not, and they're not going to be. They'll talk about the pay gap, but they won't mention the risk/death gap, the leave gap, or the work-life-balance gap. It's disingenuous to bring up one and not all of those factors. Proponents of pay adjustment legislation can not discuss the issue with honesty, or there wouldn't be an issue to discuss.

demiurgency · 2012-10-17T03:56:53+00:00

If you would truly like to understand the issue fully, I highly recommend this presentation from former feminist and acclaimed author Warren Farrel from his book, Why Men Earn More.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cb_6v-JQ13Q&feature=relmfu

It's an hour long, but you'll well understand by about 10 minutes in. He demonstrates before you exactly the cause of the statistics you see and why they make sense.

Edit: Feel free to skip the 4 minute preamble.

The best part, far from putting women down, it explains the choices the women can make to empower themselves and earn as much or more as a man.

2012-10-17T04:40:24+00:00

here's the aussie stats

and here's the stats on paid vs unpaid work done...

So yeah, women are earning 17.4% less... and only doing 66% of the paid work!*

-The stats in the ABS study does take into account those not working at all, so it's a little skewed...

rightsbot · 2012-10-17T02:24:19+00:00

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Demonspawn · 2012-10-17T13:10:52+00:00

The "wage gap" is so misunderstood because far to many people are math illiterate.

The wage gap is calculated off of an average. The average full time working woman's income is 72% of the average full time working man's income. That's the beginning and end of what the wage gap says. That's it, that's all.

If women really wanted to complain, they could start talking about the cosmetics gap. Did you know that the average man only spends 10% of what the average woman does on cosmetics? I mean it must be obvious that the stores are offering men lower prices, right?

frederickharttt · 2012-10-17T02:53:30+00:00

No need to explain anything. It is a non issue. Most won't understand this with many men in the same boat. Time to move ahead and LEAVE those behind who become clouded in thought. Feminism is a social disease and will keep followers from ever making constructive accomplishment in their lives.

Title	If you would please, explain like I'm five...
Author	blackstonesinger
Upvotes	6
Comments	25
Date	October 17, 2012 2:23 AM UTC (13 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/11lvic/if_you_would_please_explain_like_im_five/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/if-you-would-please-explain-like-im-five.1011177 https://theredarchive.com/post/1011177

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