What say you about this video: A woman has uploaded her video to the internet showing her getting punched by her husband, a disturbing case of domestic abuse.

hyp·o·crite noun \ˈhi-pə-ˌkrit\ Definition of HYPOCRITE 1: a person who puts on a false appearance of virtue or religion 2: a person who acts in contradiction to his or her stated beliefs or feelings

We don't know it's "their" house

And we don't know it's not their house. Yet while chiding him on making assumptions with a lack of knowledge you proceed to do the same. I think that falls pretty well under acting in contradiction to your belief. You seem to believe he should not do it, while it is ok for you to do it. So how exactly is that assessment incorrect?

I am making the assumption based on his reaction

Again if he was already planning on leaving, why would he react the way you suggest? He was clearly packing things up to leave, there is no reason for him to respond with "No, you get out", when it is clear it has already been arranged or agreed upon that he would be leaving. The information you are basing your assumption on appears to be faulty, within the context of the video.

We have no information on their marital status.

FTA (March 2nd, 2012) A woman has uploaded her video to the internet showing her getting punched by her husband,

You can assume he is not her husband and assume that the article is incorrect, but you have no basis for your assumption.

And him kicking throwing and then kicking and destroying things makes him the loser in court

Yes, it was a bad idea, and yes he was wrong to hit her as he did, he did not do so until she hit him. She escalated it to physical violence, he only responded. Now in court that might still make him the loser, but only because she has a vagina. If this were an altercation between two men, two women, or their genders reversed the initiator would bear the brunt of the blame. That is the reason this subreddit exists.

Yes he SHOULD have walked away, but that's only because she can use the vagina defense. It shouldn't be that way. And she and all other women SHOULD understand that if you hit, you should expect to be hit back.

[+]ryhntyntyn 1 point2 points3 points 14 years ago* (4 children) | Copy Link

I think that falls pretty well under acting in contradiction to your belief.

That's a stretch, but no, I chided him because he dodged the comment. And because he was a dick about it. My stated belief is that I think for reasons of experience, and based on how they were acting, that it isn't his place. There's not really a case for hypocrisy there.

why would he react the way you suggest?

Experience. Observation. If he had a right to be there, then he could have engaged that right, and I submit that he probably would have. In not doing so, he was either confirming her domicle right, or he didn't have a means of legal resistance, i.e. in either case, it's not his home, therefore he was obligated to leave.

The information you are basing your assumption on appears to be faulty

This is your opinion. I do not give that much weight. This is the first post you've made where you haven't been a flake.

I know what the Live Leak blurb said. I don't care. That wasn't the first place it appeared on the internet. I didn't see rings at the end when you can see their hands. I would not say the assumption is baseless. Simply unproven. Huge difference.

Yes he SHOULD have walked away, but that's only because she can use the vagina defense

Nope. He should have walked away because people shouldn't fight violently in front of their children. He should have walked away because it's the right thing to do, he's much bigger and he could easily beat her to death, so what does he have to prove? And lastly not walking aways was dumb and lost him any credibility he might have had in front of a judge and jury. So dumb.

People shouldn't hit each other. QED.

[–]spagma 0 points1 point2 points 14 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

he could have engaged that right,

Correct, he COULD have. Simply because he did not means nothing. Like I stated if he was already leaving, which it appears he was, there was no reason to do so. Therefore he probably would not have, debunking your entire argument.

It would make no sense if he were to say something to the effect of "Even though I was already planning to leave and packing my things, simply because you are commanding me to leave, I have now chosen not to leave and assert my right to reside in a house I partially own".

I didn't see rings at the end when you can see their hands.

I am married, have been for 12 years now, neither my wife or I wear rings. On top of which, they are obviously having marital problems and separating, I wouldn't expect them to still be wearing their rings. This is evidence of nothing, let alone the fact that because you did not see it, it must not exist. The video isn't even clear enough to know for sure. That reasoning is questionable at best.

He should have walked away because people shouldn't fight violently in front of their children. He should have walked away because it's the right thing to do

She should have walked away and not hit him. Imagine that, they are both at fault for their part in the situation.

And lastly not walking aways was dumb and lost him any credibility he might have had in front of a judge and jury. So dumb.

Again only because she has a vagina and he does not but yes, it would have been smarter for him to walk away.

People shouldn't hit each other.

This I completely agree with.

[+]ryhntyntyn 0 points1 point2 points 14 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Simply because he did not means nothing.

Actually it means he had no right of domicile, either because he didn't have it or he had given it up. Otherwise he would have said something, something besides, ok. To me, that’s sound. It’s arguable. You disagree. That’s ok. I am unmoved by your arguments.

It would make no sense if he were to say something to the effect of etc.

Actually, legally, if he wanted to take his TV and Playstation. It is the only thing he could have done without abrogating his right to stay and remove his property.

That reasoning is questionable at best.

Much like this whole speculative discussion. But that is, until we get more information, simply your opinion. I don't think they are acting like a married couple. There's simply not enough loathing there.

She should have walked away and not hit him.

He shouldn't have cornered her. By the time it reached critical mass, she couldn't get away. I do not think she should have hit him. People shouldn’t hit each other. I think the law will not fault her for it. A big difference that you and half this subreddit can’t recognize, but I am unmoved by that as well. He shouldn't have started kicking things. And when he said he was going to go, he should have left. Once she asked him to go. He should said no, or ok and then left.

Again only because she has a vagina and he does not

Nope. This is a cheap shot in comparison to the improved tone of your responses. It's better to not fight. Regardless of gender. If this was a gay couple splitting up, my opinion would be the same. They should not fight in front of the kids, they should not hit, corner assault, hit or needle each other and if one can't control themself it does not fall to the other to lower themselves to that level.

[–]alexunderwater 0 points1 point2 points 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] -4 points-3 points-2 points 14 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

I think this is something that is never mentioned in cases where you hear about a guy beating his wife or gf...how often does the woman keep pushing the guy's buttons until he just snaps? Probably more often than not. I'm sure there are some cases where the guy just beats the shit out of the wife/gf because she didn't cook his meatloaf the right way, but it does make more sense that a guy would do something like this after months or years of berrating, shaming, manipulation, etc. Not that I'm justifying it, it's wrong for anyone to hit their partner and responding to emotional and verbal abuse with more abuse is not the way to go. Guys need to let go of their pride or whatever and tell the bitch to pack up and leave.

This video should be used as a PSA to guys saying "If you're in this type of relationship, your wife/gf is abusing you. Leave her now before you snap and do something you'll regret.".

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[+]ryhntyntyn 0 points1 point2 points 14 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

this assumes it is not a shared home.

Yep. It does. If it were his house, I personally think he would have said something. In the same situation, I did.

the laws make no distinction when it comes to size differences

The Law actually does specifically state in sentencing guidelines that the circumstances count, and those factors are exactly what we are talking about. The laws give judges and juries leeway in sentencing based on factors exactly like height and weight advantage, and situational factors, such as cornering, or escalation, provocation.

Self Defense has to be proven. The video shows that even if she hit him first, which she did, we can see it, that

She could make a reasonable argument for having feared for her safety based on his destruction of their property, because he lost his temper and was being dumb and violent, and
He was not in any danger. He was just mad and reacting. That's natural, but not excusable in court. Big difference. Self Defense is not so simple. Just because someone hits you doesn't mean you get "Tagbacks", you have to be in danger to justify battering them, otherwise, you will also get done for assault. And that's where the factors of height, weight and position would come into play, and like so many men before him, he will wither and die in front of a jury.

[–]luciansolaris -4 points-3 points-2 points 14 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

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[+]ryhntyntyn 0 points1 point2 points 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Nope. That's pretty much how trespass laws work. There are some exceptions but they favor the person who has domicle rights even more. If you don't like them, lobby your congressperson.

Since we don't actually know whether it's his or her or their place, my assumption is unproven, not faulty. Huge difference. I have said it before that it's just a guess. But having lived this particular adventure, it's a damn fine guess at that. You don't like it, but considering your overall worth from the histrionic garbage you've posted, I could care less.

But, the fact that he said ok, acknowledging that she asked and that he acquiesced, and then didn't leave and got violent and broke things and then they hit each other, not only puts him in jeopardy of having no rights of resistance because he's trespassing, but it shows him as the chief physical instigator of the confrontation. Because he was supposed to leave and said that he would and then did not.

It can't be said enough. The only right thing to have done in this situation is to have backed off and called the cops.

Thanks for playing though.

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Why would he need to remind her that it's his house?

That's what I did in the same situation. It's what my friends who actually owned their houses said as well. It's a natural reaction to "get out!" "Why the hell should I get out? You get out?"

Why can't you see that she hit him twice before he fought back in self defense?

I have said this before. You and the rest of this forum don't seem to understand the legal definition of self defense. Based on the video she can make the case that she was in danger. He was violent before she was cornered. He actually needs to be in danger. This is where consideration of height and weight and positioning comes in. He is not. He has the positioning advantage, the strength advantage and she is unarmed. No danger, no self defense.

Self defense does not mean, "She hit me, therefore I get a shot as well."

The correct action is to back away and call the police. Full stop.

[–]funnyfaceking -1 points0 points1 point 14 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[–]luciansolaris -2 points-1 points0 points 14 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

The law is wrong, and ought to be rejected and thrown out.

The law is a bludgeoning tool used these days to fuck men over. If men want a working family unit again, they need to repeal women's vote, exonerate men charged with DV (regardless of guilt), throw out 95% of the USC and state statutes, eliminate divorce except for the most extreme of causes, and make father custody and property ownership default.

Thus far women's lib has made everyone 'individuals' with dependency on the government, instead of self-sustaining family units that wouldn't need government. The more broken a society, the more governing it needs. Same with police: more crime, more cops. We're going through a pre-Brave New World scenario in slow motion.

ADDENDUM:

Trespass in is own home? Are you kidding me?

If she doesn't want to see him, she ought to have left him and the kids behind at the house and thought some shit over in some parking lot.

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Honestly, I am just confused here. What makes you think that 'come on' was my argument there? Do you think 'honestly' is my argument here?

you didn't have any other argument

Are you saying that I am using angry language here, or do you think I am trying to trap you into using angry language?

the former

it matters a lot whether it was in fact his TV.

It was her house. It was time for him to leave. He was kicking stuff and smashing stuff. There were little children and a dog playing with many things all over the room. It was a big TV. It was still plugged in and turned on? Do you seriously think he was going somewhere with it?

Not sure where you felt it was falling down.

He was reaching behind it. That's when she spread her arms over it. He wasn't going to let her go. Look at the way he grabbed her arms at the very end and pulled her all the way across the room to turn off the video camera. Why did he do that?

The woman tried to hit him in the face - it's not as if she was gently caressing it. What more harm are you looking for here?

she told him keep on breaking stuff and she'll have no choice but to call the cops, then he said it was his stuff (which was a threat to keep breaking it), then she swatted at him to get away and told him to get out at the exact same time. then he claimed ownership of the TV and grabbed behind it and her. she had every right to push him away again and again, then he punched her hard.

she may not have been gently caressing his face, but she was giving him many opportunities to leave the house and he kept at it

I hope you're being honest when you say you're just confused. I hope I can answer your questions. I reviewed the video several times while composing this comment. Once or twice I questioned what I originally thought, but now I still stand by what I have said.

thanks for the debate

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[–]The_Patriarchy 3 points4 points5 points 14 years ago* (3 children) | Copy Link

commenters were suggesting the woman instigated and elevated the situation.

How? By asking him to leave? No. He cornered her and started kicking shit. We see her put her hands up (which appeared defensive more than anything), then he starts swinging, she cries and he claims she punched him. It seems possible that, when she put her hands up, because he was so close to her, she touched him. But putting that aside for the moment, even if she did punch him, a reasonable person would feel they were in danger and that should be enough to classify it as self defense.

He clearly escalated the situation once she asked him to leave and told him not to steal her Playstation. He's an abuser and I would have no problem with his ass being thrown in jail.

EDIT: after watching it again, she definitely swung at him first. It wasn't to protect her face. Even still, he cornered her and threatened her. It's still clearly self-defense.

[–]luciansolaris 0 points1 point2 points 14 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

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[–]blow_hard 0 points1 point2 points 14 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

She asked him to leave, and then he cornered her. He was the first to start acting violent, with all the kicking. He is in her face, shouting at her, and it looks like she can't get away. She hits him on the face, he blocks her a couple times, then punches her in the face. She's visibly hurt- she starts moaning, and he drags her away.

It was pretty horrific. I think he was the main contributor to the violence of the situation- he physically intimidates her by violently kicking things and backing her into a corner. She does hit him before trying to get away, however. I think his punch was disproportionate to the blows he received- he is not in any danger, and could easily restrain her if he was worried about her hitting him again- we know this because he does restrain her, and drag her away, after he has hit her.

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[–]td9red -1 points0 points1 point 14 years ago (14 children) | Copy Link

No, I wouldn't expect a guy in a bar to go easy on me. This was no guy in a bar. This was her husband. She's the mother of his kids. I would expect a whole lot more from my husband or my ex-husband. He should not have punched her like that. PERIOD. He was out of control. He didn't even stop his assault after he punched her. After the punch she is standing there with her hands to her face saying," I can't believe you hit me" or something like that. He proceeds to grab hold of her arms and drag her toward the video camera. What was he defending himself from then? The idea that he popped her in defense of himself is laughable. This guy actually lifts is leg and uses his body to put everything he could into his punch. There may be instances where a women has provoked a man into being violent with her. But, this is not the situation that MRAs should be holding up as demonstrating a lack of equality when viewing each party's actions. This guy is simply an abusive guy. He is very agressive with her from the start. He grabs a cord from her hands. He pins her in front of the TV. He kicks the TV. He keeps stepping into her personal space in an aggressive manner. Finally, after some pathetic swings which did not put him in fear of anything he popped her really hard and called her a bitch. This guy deserves no defense. He is just a jerk beating on a woman. I fault her for being there. She should have had her father, brother come over instead. Too bad they have kids, she is going to have to deal with this abusive guy for many years to come.

[–]spagma 0 points1 point2 points 14 years ago (13 children) | Copy Link

She should not have attacked him like that, PERIOD. That is unless you believe a woman should have special treatment?

I agree that his reaction was too much, but I do not go so far as to claim abuse.

I fault her for being there.

Fault her for hitting him, it is very likely he would not have hit her, had she not hit him. She should not get a pass for this simply because it wasn't as hard as he hit back. Would you still given her a pass for this if he didn't hit back? What if she just kept on hitting him until he left, should she still get a pass? At what point exactly would it be considered abuse on her part?

I will answer that for you. Her hitting him in any shape and form falls squarely under physical abuse. You say that he wasn't defending himself, but had he not hit back, she would have continued to hit him, which makes it clear by hitting her, he stopped her from hitting him, and therefore constitutes self defense.

His reaction should have been more measured, but it was a reaction nonetheless. She is not as blameless as you make her out to be.

[–]td9red 0 points1 point2 points 14 years ago (12 children) | Copy Link

You really think he wouldn't have hit if she didn't swing at him? This video, if nothing else, show that it is this guy's personality to be a hot head, to be out of control, and to be abusive. If the TV was his, than he almost broke his own property when he kicked the tv stand (is that a reasonable action?). He immediately got all up in her face. Note, if you pin a person into a corner and lean into them giving them no way to move away other than to push back at you or hit you that is a THREAT, it is especially so when you are twice their size and you are well aware of the fact that they can't hurt you. They have a right to defend themselves against your threat.

You fault her for hitting him, what should she have done when he pinned in front of the tv and wouldn't let her get by? Watch the video again, if you think she could have gotten by him.

Do you disagree that he was in complete control of her when he pinned her in front of the TV?

After he hit her, he grabbed hold of her arms and dragged her toward the camera. Was this a continuation of his self defense, in your view?

You ask a bunch of questions about would I give her a pass if... None of those things happened in the video. My evaluation of the video is from the actions I see there.

You don't know she would have continued to try to hit. I suspect that if he had backed off her instead of pinning her closer and closer to the TV she would have ran around him and called the cops.

You keep calling what he did self-defense, I don't think so. Note, after he hit her and grabbed her he started with the line, "No I didn't punch you, you punched me in the face 3 times... Just like an abusive guy to try to convince you that he didn't hit you. Further, I saw her swing and miss and I saw her swinging toward the side of his head, where are the 3 punches to his face? Not only is he abusive, he's a liar. Why is anyone defending this guy. He doesn't deserve it.

[–]spagma 1 point2 points3 points 14 years ago (11 children) | Copy Link

You really think he wouldn't have hit if she didn't swing at him

We have no evidence suggesting he would. It's one thing to get and be angry, it is quite another to hit. He did not hit her until she hit him. Unless you have some evidence of past abuse, or where he initiated harm, your assumption is unfounded. Simply because he hit her back, does not mean he is an abuser. If anything we have evidence she assaulted him without physical provocation, which could go to show that she may have done so in the past. I am not going to go so far to say that, but there is more proof of that than there is of what you are asserting.

They have a right to defend themselves against your threat.

If she deemed him a threat, a pre-emptive attack is not the best option, because she believes there was the possibility in which he was going to hurt her, attacking him would only make that happen.

Do you disagree that he was in complete control of her when he pinned her in front of the TV?

He did not pin her to the TV until after she hit him, she backed up and covered the TV to keep him from getting at it, he was not physically restraining her there until she attacked him. She could have moved away, she chose not to. She did not want him taking what appears to be his TV, even after she told him to take whatever he wants.

You don't know she would have continued to try to hit.

She hit once, he backed away, then attempted to gain access to his TV again, she hit again. That's pretty clear evidence that if he continued to try to get his property she was going to continue to hit him for doing so.

Just like an abusive guy to try to convince you that he didn't hit you.

To me its clear he was referring to not punching her first, not claiming he never hit her at all. He was questioning why she hit him, he hadn't punched her when she did, but you are so bent on blaming him you are seeing what you want to see.

Both parties are to blame, both parties engaged in physical violence, both parties were abusive. Though even if he had he not hit her back, I do not believe you would see that she was being abusive, and controlling. Would you? If so, why is that negated by him hitting back?

My wife hits me usually in the shoulders or chest, while not all the time, and not on a regular basis, it happens a couple times a year. I have never hit my wife, however if she were to ever swing at my head or face, out of anger I am pretty sure I would reciprocate. Hitting in the head or face for me is a big no no. She was going for his head and face. Again I am not saying she deserved exactly what she got, but she deserved something.

Why is anyone defending this guy.

Because without any sort of defense he gets written off as an abuser and her role in it gets whitewashed. After all she is just a poor innocent woman, she can't be held responsible for her actions.

[–][deleted] -1 points0 points1 point 14 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link

[–]td9red 1 point2 points3 points 14 years ago* (5 children) | Copy Link

No - I would fully expect anyone to defend themselves against an attack by some stranger who he knows nothing about, doesn't know if he is caring a weapon. This women was his wife. He could see both of her hands, he knows she is not carrying a weapon, also he knows her strengths (rather weakness). He was in no danger and he knew that. I agree that women should expect men to defend themselves when in an altercation with their domestic partner. This is far beyond defense. There are times when couples can get past an incident where both of their behavior was uncontroled and it went too far to minor violence. He tagged her! I have never been hit like that and I could never stay with a guy who hit me like that.

What he did was like when your 15yr-old, punches his 8 yr-old brother in the face b/c the 8yr-old was kicking him. What would a parent do? Grab the 15yr-old b/c the 8 yr-old is no match for him and he should have simply pushed the 8 yr-old away.

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Hitting him in the head is an escalation.

I'm a little guy, and I've had much bigger guys try to intimidate me like that, and it never once led to a fight. I held my ground, looked them in the eye, spoke in measured tones, and KEPT MY HANDS DOWN. That put the ball back in their court, and they had to decide whether to negotiate or start a fight.

If you raise your hands, you're asking for a fight. If you swing, you've started a fight. She started the fight.

My point is not to defend the guy in the video. I totally agree with what you said he should have done. My point is to hold the woman accountable for her part in escalating the situation, including the inexcusable act of punching when it was clearly not necessary. You are illustrating the societal bias of not holding women accountable for violent actions.

[+]ryhntyntyn 0 points1 point2 points 14 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

So Him staying despite the fact that she asked then told him to leave is ok?

I disagree.

If you raise your hands

Unless you are afraid. It's natural to be afraid when you are backed in a corner by someone larger than you.

You are illustrating the societal bias of not holding women accountable for violent actions.

No. I think that he should have left when she said leave. He shouldn't have kicked the furniture or whatever. I think that he shouldn't have backed her into a corner, or tried to take the TV without the police present. If they were having an argument and she slapped him out of the blue, I would call it battery. But this is not the case. There is possible trespass, destruction of property, physical intimidation, and then she hits him. He was dumb. So dumb. I do not think the law will be on his side. As for her hitting him. The law will recognize her argument that she was being cornered.

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He came at her, kicked the games, and stood over her before she did anything physical.

Yes, he escalated the situation with his body posture, but didn't hit her.

so she tried to push him away with her hands.

She pushed him, and swung at his head twice. She escalated with physical violence. She could have walked away, but chose to hit instead.

Then he punched her hard in the face. He could have walked away too, but chose to escalate the physical violence further.

He was waiting for her to make contact first.

And she obliged, didn't she? She did so knowing that she could hit back harder. Not physically, but with a call to the police. And a video posted on the internet.

According to the many studies of domestic violence, this is a fairly typical pattern of mutually escalating violence, with physical contact often initiated by the woman, and ending with the man doing the most physical damage.

My point is that this was not a one-sided event, with a passive, cowering female getting pummeled. She was an active participant. She initiated and escalated.

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Yes, he escalated the situation with his body posture, but didn't hit her.

she was criminally restrained. she could not walk away. he stunned her with the kick and the threatening posture. that's criminal restraint. in my state, it is slightly lesser offense to false imprisonment. she can't escape.

He was waiting for her to make contact first. And she obliged, didn't she? She did so knowing that she could hit back harder. Not physically, but with a call to the police. And a video posted on the internet.

She made contact, but she did not commit assault with intent to do harm.

She got evidence of serious and real domestic violence on tape. She is as blameless as any store that sets up a security camera to catch shoplifters.

My point is that this was not a one-sided event, with a passive, cowering female getting pummeled. She was an active participant.

Did you see the end? After she got punched? Seems pretty passive and cowering to me. It's horrifying to imagine what happened after he turned the camera off. Wait a minute, he knew there was a camera there? Did he set himself up? Give me a break.

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points5 points 14 years ago (25 children) | Copy Link

Before I respond to your nonsense, I want to make it clear I am in no way defending the man's actions. He chose to escalate by his intimidation display, and he chose to respond to violence with greater violence. I abhor his behavior. But I am claiming that this is an example of mutual escalation and mutual violence where the woman was an active participant, not a one-sided beating.

Now for your nonsense:

she was criminally restrained.

Ridiculous. She could just say "screw this", go around him, and disengage. He was not holding her or restraining her in any way.

If this were two male housemates fighting over a playstation, and the big one postures up, the little one punches him, the big one punches back, the little one cries like a bitch, no one would be saying the little one was blameless.

I'm a little guy and I've had big guys posture up on me like this several times. It's an intimidation display. Most of the time they're bluffing. I take a defiant but non-confrontational posture and hold my ground. This has never once led to a fight. A few times I could tell they were psychos looking for a fight, and I disengaged and left. This has never led to a fight either. Never once did I think it a good idea to take a swing at a guy a lot bigger than me. I'm not stupid, and I don't like getting hit. And starting a fight and then then crying about it isn't going to get me any sympathy, because I'm not female.

You are a typical example of pro-female bias. You are distorting facts and inventing nonsense like "criminally restrained". You are attributing a blameless intent to her, even though you have no means of knowing her intent. You are excusing or ignoring her clear provocation, escalation, and initiation of violence.

Did you see the end? After she got punched? Seems pretty passive and cowering to me.

Well of course. That's common behavior for women who participate in mutual domestic violence. Initiate violence, then play the victim. Because violence doesn't count when women do it, but it's just about the worst thing ever when men do it.

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