I'm a high-net-worth divorce lawyer and civil litigator. AMA.

BreakEmUp · 2011-11-12T03:53:57+00:00

I work for a large law firm in the midwest handling complex litigation and high-net-worth divorces, often involving the division of large family businesses. I...

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In my state, you have to file a motion to modify support and show that you are earning less (which is presumptively the income that will be imputed) or that you're trying to get a job but can't.

The problems start when the payor can't pay but doesn't bother trying to modify support. He just stops paying. He has the responsibility to change support if he can't pay it. I've never seen a person who is working full time at near earning capacity not get a downward modification. In reality, it's much harder to convince a judge to change your support when you're horribly delinquent.

The reason a judge won't adjust support if someone isn't working is that the child still needs to be supported. If you had full placement, what would you do?

However, if you file a motion to modify support (in my state) and at the hearing present a list of 147 jobs you applied for and show that you're trying to become current, a judge will appreciate that. They won't accept "Nowhere's hiring, I can't get a job." A judge will rightfully expect that you do absolutely everything in your power to support your child, regardless of whether the mother has enough money to take care of the kid.

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AKA you represent rich people with money and time to buy good advocates. I think the biggest issue is with poor people and their interaction with the family court system. I find it strange that you make the statement:

I have NEVER seen unfair treatment when it comes to custody and placement.

and go on...

I've never seen a man who wants equal placement and is willing to stay in the same school district the children are currently in not get equal placement with the kids.

Do you understand what you are doing there? What if the man wants primary custody?

What is your gender?

What law school did you graduate from?

I think one of the biggest complaints the mensrights movement has is with DSOs, not with custody. I am a lawyer, but do not practice in family law. It doesn't pay well enough ;)

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IANAL but... HE IS WRITING CHECKS IN THE ABSENCE OF A SUPPORT ORDER? IS HE OUT OF HIS FUCKING MIND????

No, he is a father. He didn't plan on the kid but now he is a grown up so he owns it. He wants his child to be cared for. . .

Also, voluntary payments are tradable for parenting time. If she wants a check, he gets reasonable visitation on his terms.

Should be. . . but hes too nice for whatever reason or she manages to trick him.

but no, if he lives 2-3 hours away and lives with his parents, custody is a rapidly fading dream. As our lawyer friend says, act like a visitor and you'll be treated as one. If he can't afford to reside in the same town and can't afford to maintain an appropriate home for his child - then he's not in a position to parent.

His the son of wealthy business owners, who he lives with because he can and it saves money, he can afford whatever the child needs.

It has nothing to do with being able to afford to live there, its that he never wanted to live 2 hours away.

If he can't afford to reside in the same town and can't afford to maintain an appropriate home for his child - then he's not in a position to parent.

I'd safely say that his home, a 400k+ home w/built in babysitters is more satisfactory than her 2 BR condo.

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don't move away when you get a divorce

Umm, I've been thinking this a bit. I sometimes travel to US/Silicon Valley and have been thinking of moving my office there for a while. Supposedly I'll establish a nest there, fall in love, get kids and then blow it; would there be any odds of gaining custody in a case that I'd move back to Europe? Or how overseas alimony/child support work anyways?

Taking from what I've been talking with my US friends, I'd really doubt a kid would have a better future growing up in US than say, moving with me to Finland. We have great (and free) schools, safe neighborhood, very high standard of living, free daycare, free healthcare, standard 50/50 split of custody, no alimony etc. I definitely think that should make a decent case for sole custody by arguments. But then again, I doubt the legal system would side with immigrant and against the state that much.

Can one apply a foreign legislation to marriage, if the knot is tied elsewhere?

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but the prestige!!!

Prestige? A lot of people laugh at the poor suckers.

were you a NY biglawyer?

I was a summer associate at a top 100 firm on the east coast for a couple of summers. I was offered a position and turned it down.

i've heard biglaw is more tolerable in metropolitan areas outside of the NE. for example, Houston biglaw, at least the equivalent, is less pay but also less hours and, generally, less soul-sucking.

Perhaps, but they do not pay $150,000 starting. It's much closer to $100,000 unless it is in LA or Chicago.

were i ever to go down the law path, and earn a biglaw offer...if it wasn't in NYC, i'd be pretty tempted i must admit.

A lot of my friends went to biglaw. Most of them regretted it. It takes specific type of person to work, survive, and perform well in biglaw. I would discourage joining the profession to go to biglaw. It is very unlikely you will make it (I'm not saying this to be arrogant or anything). You must go to a decent law school (T14) and be in the top 10-15% of your class to get to REAL biglaw. It's a dangerous bet with many, many losers.

Even once you get there, it is unlikely you will make partner. They generally work you to the bone for 5-6 years and then hint to you that you will not be making partner or will ask you to leave if you stick around much longer. Not that the exit options are bad.

[–]hardwarequestions 1 point2 points3 points 14 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

you're in the legal community in the NE and telling me prestige is not a major component of life up there?! i've got a few legal blogs who would disagree with that my friend...

i could be wrong. i have just heard numerous times that, expecially in NYC, prestige is a way of life. you are where you've gone type of mentality. no?

I would discourage joining the profession to go to biglaw. It is very unlikely you will make it (I'm not saying this to be arrogant or anything). You must go to a decent law school (T14) and be in the top 10-15% of your class to get to REAL biglaw. It's a dangerous bet with many, many losers.

Even once you get there, it is unlikely you will make partner. They generally work you to the bone for 5-6 years and then hint to you that you will not be making partner or will ask you to leave if you stick around much longer. Not that the exit options are bad.

agreed on all points.

[–]TheRealPariah 1 point2 points3 points 14 years ago* (3 children) | Copy Link

you're in the legal community in the NE and telling me prestige is not a major component of life up there?! i've got a few legal blogs who would disagree with that my friend...

I never said prestige wasn't a major component of life, I said that a few people laugh at the poor suckers (especially the kids currently getting hired) that work for biglaw.

you are where you've gone type of mentality. no?

This is true. I guess I was really trying to say that there are other ways to build prestige in the legal field without losing 10 years of your life at biglaw. And ones that don't end with you waking up when you are 35 and wondering where your youth went.

If you really want to be in biglaw, I would suggest you doing something else and laterally transferring down the line. It's easier, they pay more, and you can have your youth. It's what I did.

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That's one thing I've never understood with the men's rights movement (please take no offense) - I have NEVER seen unfair treatment when it comes to custody and placement. It's 50/50 unless there's some extremely good reason to deviate. I've never seen a man who wants equal placement and is willing to stay in the same school district the children are currently in not get equal placement with the kids. Never. However, my work is limited to one state. Other states are different. That said, every time a man has complained to me that he was treated unfairly regarding custody he's usually been full of shit.

However... when it comes to working, there's an absolute bias I've seen on a bunch of occasions. Judges often order unemployed men to find employment and impute their income at an unreasonable level. An unemployed woman is treated as a "stay-at-home mom". Also, it's much tougher to get maintenance/alimony for a man. There's an attitude that a divorcing man shouldn't have to rely on his high-earning wife.

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I've dealt with all sorts of clients, rich and poor. Here's the reality - statistically, poor fathers are less willing to be actively involved in the children's lives. If they want to be involved equally and make the effort, the GAL will recommend equal placement. What usually happens, however, is that the couple separates and the wife keeps the kids with her and the father willingly becomes a "visitor" because he doesn't want to go through the trouble of equal placement. When child support becomes an issue, his mind changes and courts see through it.

When it comes down to it, the fathers that complain about bias in custody and placement rarely fought tooth and nail to get their kids equally. They were usually pretty complacent and courts don't want to change the status quo. If the kids are doing well with 70% placement with their mother, the court is less likely to change it. Divorce is hard enough on kids.

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Money IS a zero-sum game. Take from one and give to the other and the giving parent can very well end up with a WORSE standard of living than the gaining parent. The only way child support works in a take from the rich, give to the poor sense, is when the parent being tapped for CS is in fact rich and the money they give up won't affect their lifestyle. For two parent's already living paycheck to paycheck, as is the case in middle America, most of your CS awards are far too much. There is no practical way to make both parents have the same standard of living post divorce. There are exceptions, but for most that's simply not going to be the case. What often happens is the custodial parent receives CS and gets or has a job, and combined it's pretty close to what they had going before divorce. However, the non-custodial parent ends up with a significantly lower standard of living because of the money they have to give up that would have given them their previous standard of living.

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Michigan.
Custody is based on the "best interests" doctrine:

"If a child custody dispute is between the parents, between agencies, or between third persons, the best interests of the child control." (From MCL 722.25)

Judges or referees are supposed to consider 12 factors (MCL 722.23) and award custody based on those factors.

Actually, non-lawyer FOC child custody evaluators and sometimes "conciliators" do this and judges or referees normally rubber stamp their decisions. Their lawyers are not allowed to speak at the conferences where child custody is determined, and those conferences are never recorded. See Ingham County Handbook Page 5 See also my document.

FYI, I ran a simple statistical analysis based on the limited available data, and African American fathers are no more than 3/5ths as likely as White Non-Hispanic fathers to get significant time with their children during a child custody dispute. This is based on an indirect, county by county comparison, and I believe a direct comparison would show a much worse racially based bias.

Naturally, your experiences would make you skeptical of my statements.

Attorney Brian Downs stated the following (and gave me permission to quote him):

"I am an attorney and I think it is unconstitutional to have the FOC as a part of the Judiciary. It is a classic bias. For example, imagine if you were in court and the Judge's clerk got up and started arguing for one side or the other. No one would stand for such blatant bias. But the FOC is in the same position. FOC employees are merely employees of the judges. It is a big charade that the Courts and FOC try to hide from the public. The FOC puts on the facade that it is an independent government agency that merely wants to do what is "in the best interests of the children". But it isn't true. Or, as another example, what if the Court system would get a big "donation" if the judge ruled one way, and no "donation" if the judge ruled another way. No one would stand for such obvious bias. But that is what the Courts are doing. It is simply wrong. In a related matter, the FOC essentially is acting as a prosecuting attorney, a position that is Constitutionally required to be part of the Executive Branch of government. Finally, there is an ethical violation when there is merely the "appearance" of impropriety or bias. (***see references below) The amount of Title IV funds that the Judicial system receives is dependent on the judges decisions (if they grant joint custody, they get less Title IV funds). This is a clear "appearance" of impropriety."

Please also note the evidence of illicit and potentially criminal behavior.

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DON'T AGREE TO LEAVE THE HOUSE. DON'T AGREE TO LEAVE THE HOUSE. DON'T AGREE TO LEAVE THE HOUSE! Once you leave, a court is much more likely to let the wife stay there and it's (objectively) better for the children to stay in the marital home.

Women tend to act much more erratic during a divorce, so I always recommend that we immediately get a temporary order requiring each party to be responsible for paying their own debts. Remember, even if a joint debt is assigned to one party in a divorce, a creditor isn't bound by the assignment and can go after either party. So this is what we see:

Wife racks up $25,000 in debt on a joint credit card (or individual credit card in community property states) immediately before and during divorce proceedings.
The judge refuses to make the husband pay for it and assigns it to the wife.
The wife doesn't pay or discharges it in bankruptcy.
Creditor goes after husband and husband can't do a thing about it.

In my state, we "hold open" maintenance/alimony in situations like this so that if the creditor goes after the husband four years later, the husband can ask for alimony equal to the creditor amount or can access the wife's retirement account to pay the creditor. Because alimony can't be discharged in bankruptcy, it gives some protection to the husband.

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It depends on your definition of a prenup. I've seen a few tossed out when the parties wrote the prenups themselves. Well drafted prenups are generally solid unless one party becomes disabled or the prenup was patently unfair at the time of drafting. In one case (not mine), a prenup was tossed when the husband's lawyer included provisions giving him the house, his entire retirement, personal property equal to income contributions, etc... and the wife (unrepresented) stayed home and raised their 6 children. After 15 years, he wants a divorce and wants to leave the wife with literally NOTHING. No way a court would enforce that. They rarely tinker with the provisions, though. All in or all out.

If the prenup is fair when drafted it will be enforced, even if it appears unfair at the time of divorce.

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After 15 years, he wants a divorce and wants to leave the wife with literally NOTHING. No way a court would enforce that.

Why? She agreed to it, it's on her to own up to her end of the bargain.

If the prenup is fair when drafted it will be enforced

Why should it be fair? If they agreed to it and understood the risks then so be it. So long as they weren't coerced then they should have to live with the consequences of their choice/decision. Sounds like the judges throwing those prenups are patting the women on the head and saying "oh it's okay, I'll be your white knight and see to it you get your "fair share"". In the context of this thread it removes agency from women and quite frankly it's patronizing as hell. I'm a firm believer people should be held accountable for their decisions, yes, even those that put them into an unfair position. Their choice, their responsibility.

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Title	I'm a high-net-worth divorce lawyer and civil litigator. AMA.
Author	BreakEmUp
Upvotes	16
Comments	184
Date	November 12, 2011 3:53 AM UTC (14 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/m9gz2/im_a_highnetworth_divorce_lawyer_and_civil/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/im-a-high-net-worth-divorce-lawyer-and-civil.1031806 https://theredarchive.com/post/1031806

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