So, who is more homophobic? Men or women? I have been saying this for awhile now and I think this comment illustrates the roots of homophobia perfectly.

fondueguy · 2011-02-20T15:46:57+00:00

I agree that women use homophobia as a way to enforce behavior in men that they deem acceptable. But this works both ways. The caricature of the feminist as a hairy legged lesbian still has a lot of sting, which is why some men continue to use it.

I have never read about a civilization that wasn't structued in a hierarchy where women controlled the societal(status) elements. Whether caste systems or socio-economic systems, there is always a man on top with undesirables on the bottom.

The unstated assumption is that women have all the power of sexual selection, but I don't think that's true. Men also have this power, but it is less evenly distributed among them. The hypergamous hierarchy you describe concentrates a lot of sexual selection power in the alpha males, and removes it from the beta males. This leaves the majority of men more susceptible to influence by female sexual manipulation, like being called gay. Those at the top of the hierarchy couldn't care less, because they are the ones with the selection power. So homophobic shaming language from women is primarily a tool to keep the betas in line.

DDayDawg · 2011-02-20T15:25:25+00:00

Sure women do this, and it's wrong, but they aren't the problem. The problem is a culture dominated by people telling us homosexuals are doing something wrong. Be it religion, don't ask don't tell, the ban on gay marriage, or any number of social morays we are bombarded by messages that say homosexuality is wrong and it's not something you want to be associated with. It's sadly ingrained.

I have many gay friends, I fight for gay rights, I believe wholeheartedly that homosexuals should be treated like everyone else. And yet I still feel the need to tell people, "I'm not gay or anything..." when discussing the topic. So I'm as much the problem as I am the solution.

barbadosslim · 2011-02-21T01:37:31+00:00

I love mensrights like I love Keeping Up with the Kardashians or something.

goldgecko4 · 2011-02-20T19:37:47+00:00

As a gay man, I've seen maybe one or two men who have threatened me or people I know with violence, or even just shouted slurs; never any women.

That being said, I've run into many, many more women who will talk about you behind your back, spread rumors, shield their children, and support legislation against gay men (always just the gay men, lesbians tend to be invisible to these people).

I can't say all men are allies and all women are homophobes, but I have had my life effected more by homophobic females than their male counterparts. I've never once been beaten up for being gay, but I have had my job jeopardized because of how rumor spreads. God help me if I ever had kids.

2011-02-20T19:59:22+00:00

WOMEN have used the ‘threat’ of homosexuality to control male behaviour

No, women do not do this. Bitches do this, and are not worthy of anyone's time.

menareangrynow · 2011-02-21T02:06:15+00:00

Hey thetrollking. I have the answer, actually. According to Gallup polling women used to be more accepting; but, in the last few years there was an unprecedented shift in men's attitudes towards gays causing the acceptance of gays to skyrocket among men. Right now men are more accepting, and from what I've been reading this is a trend that is expected to continue and widen across men of every age and class. Right now men are 2% more accepting than women. From 2006 to 2010 women gained +2% acceptance of gays, while men gained +14% acceptance of gays. When the new polls come out for 2011, the gap is expected to widen. At current trends, if they persist, a 2 to 1 ratio of acceptance could develop very soon, although the current trend for men could slow down at any time. This could just be an anomaly.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/135764/Americans-Acceptance-Gay-Relations-Crosses-Threshold.aspx

2011-02-20T14:59:38+00:00

So, we're comparing the worst traits of both sexes to one another? This seems playground-ish. How bouts we just cut this bullshit out? Can't we just say that some people are bigots?

Chowley_1 · 2011-02-20T18:18:22+00:00

While I'm a very straight guy, I'm also extremely comfortable in my sexuality so I have no problem pretending to be gay, or acting gay if it gets a laugh out of people. I know a few gay guys, and I have no problem being around them. To me, being gay is nothing to be ashamed of.

I don't really care what other people say about me, I know I"m straight, and I'll do whatever I want if it makes me happy. Also, I know most of my friends are this way. So if someone (man or woman) calls us "gay" as a derogatory term, we'll probably just laugh in their face and tell them to fuck off.

2011-02-21T03:02:44+00:00

Really? I've never thought of the term "bromance" as insinuating something gay. I've always figured it to be just a good friendship between two guys. But its good to know that people take it differently.

That's an interesting assumption. I've personally seen more men call other men gay than women call men gay. I've just met more men that are put off to the idea of a homosexual man than women. I'm not saying there aren't women who maybe do this but I think its a larger sociocultural value than just a male-female dynamic.

2011-02-21T06:02:13+00:00

I love how in the original post you insinuate that women (and what you refer to as their 'nature') are the root cause of all problems for men. This argument is out dated and absurd.

I think what you might be getting at (with a problematic argument) is that women re-enforce negative stereotypes about gay men...and use societal homo phobia as a way to weild power over men through fear. I'm not sure I buy that men are truly afraid of being seen as gay...but i'll go with you on this under the pretense that we are not speaking widely for any group (ie: all men, all women, all gay men etc)

If a woman is using homo phobia as a leverage tool in relationship dynamics she as an individual is propelling hetero-normative social structures but in no way is any individual woman (or group of women...in this case I'm assuming we are speaking about american women) responsible for a societal issue such as homo phobia.

The effective and helpful way to view complex situations where one group of oppressed people are using oppressive power structures to gain perceived power over another group is:

We are all oppressed under our current society...albeit in different ways and to different levels but we are all negatively affected by current social structures

Attacking groups or individuals only continues to separate us from one another...

If individuals are using oppressive language we need to address that in an honest and straight forward way...and not view individuals as representative of an entire group.

Then we should look at how our society has established oppression and work towards dissolving those systems of power.

As a woman I am sad to think that you believe all women use fear tactics to control men...and that we are responsible for oppressing men.

I do not want to oppress you, or anyone else.

2011-02-21T14:45:52+00:00

When a woman accuses me of homosexuality, I offer to prove my heterosexuality to them personally (depending on attractiveness.) While I'm sure women have there share of homophones I still think conservative men take the cake. It's more of a passive aggressive tactic than a belief.

ShakeyBobWillis · 2011-02-21T21:44:28+00:00

Oh god, now homophobia is women's fault too? Mensrights needs a fucking chill pill.

BolshevikMuppet · 2011-02-21T22:47:13+00:00

Basically, women accuse men of being gay, than (most importantly) they assert even the perception of being gay will effect his mating chances negatively. This results in men wanting to avoid even the perception that they’re gay (because they’re not, and they want to have sex).

I dunno, I see a hell of a lot more of that from other guys than from girls. Perhaps there's a bit of competitiveness in there (guys call other guys gay in order to reduce their competitiveness). I guess ones conclusion here could depend on personal experience, though.

trollkingsdrunkagain · 2011-02-20T17:30:24+00:00

[permanently deleted]

plumeria · 2011-02-20T21:43:05+00:00

Seems a bit like grasping at straws here. I call my bf gay all the time, but at no point am I questioning his masculinity. It's just a tired joke.

notacrackheadofficer · 2011-02-20T22:57:02+00:00

Somewhat related.
I am in my 40s. Most of my life I have worn long hair, as I am not into coming up with a hairstyle. Comb out knots once a day, and keep it tied in ponytail. Easy. No statement being made.
Women are very often prone to giving me looks of horror, or slamming their car door locks down, or gripping their children in dread fear as I pass.
When walking with my daughter, at all different ages, I would be subjected to looks of sheer terror, and audible gasps, et cetera, at an alarming rate.
It only got worse as she got older. I thought it was bad when she was a toddler, but it went absolutely nuts when she was a teen.
It was a 50% or higher rate of looks of obvious extreme horror, as if I were a creep with a teenager.
Long hair on men is absolutely terrifying to New York women.

mean0dean0 · 2011-02-22T01:09:10+00:00

In the twelfth century, Marie de France (a well-known writer in her time) critiqued gender roles in her lais. In Lanval, she goes so far as to have Queen Guinevere call the knight Lanval a homosexual when he spurns her advances. So I'd say that particular insult has been around for a while...

windynights · 2011-02-20T15:23:36+00:00

Feminism and the gay movement have been bosom buddies from the get go. In concert, they both have profited from each other in being able to keep any mainstream resistance off-balance.

2011-02-20T17:02:46+00:00

I agree 100%.

but then, I would...

menareangrynow · 2011-02-21T02:07:38+00:00

I love gays (yes homo) ^{^}

TerribleAtPuns · 2011-02-20T15:13:22+00:00

Homonegative

Homophobic is not PC.

trackerbishop · 2011-02-20T21:06:34+00:00

So what. Everytime I'm nice to a gay guy they take it the wrong way and think I'm hitting on them. It's best for straight men to not give an inch to gays, or they'll take a mile. Pardon the pun.

Title	So, who is more homophobic? Men or women? I have been saying this for awhile now and I think this comment illustrates the roots of homophobia perfectly.
Author	thetrollking
Upvotes	26
Comments	74
Date	February 20, 2011 2:40 PM UTC (15 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/fozcg/so_who_is_more_homophobic_men_or_women_i_have/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/so-who-is-more-homophobic-men-or-women-i-have-been.1042922 https://theredarchive.com/post/1042922

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