A feminist definition of sexual assault

[–][deleted] 14 points15 points16 points 16 years ago (49 children) | Copy Link

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[–]PierceHarlan 13 points14 points15 points 16 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

I'm the author of this post. This quote is not anything approaching Dworkin; it is far more mainstream than any of us would like to imagine. I study false rape claims closely since my website is the leading intenet site for the falsely accused in the world and this attempt to tinker with consent is extremely widespread. You are familiar with Liz Kelly's government authorized study in the UK, are you not? Do you know her views on consent? http://falserapesociety.blogspot.com/2009/05/british-study-says-rape-is-rampant.html Radical, yes, but some of her views are shaping the reform of rape law in the UK. Are you familiar with the efforts of feminist legal scholars to shift the burden of proof for consent to the accused (intercourse becomes a presumed crime), or to lower the burden of proof to garner a conviction? You certainly know about rape continuums and the like? This quote is from that school of thought, which has a lot of supporters. The fact is, we see quotes like this one a lot, and some of it creeps into the mainstream. I focused on this one because it's from the leading feminist site on "rape."

[–][deleted] 7 points8 points9 points 16 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[–]PierceHarlan 9 points10 points11 points 16 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Yeah, the radicals have a strong voice in the sexual assault milieu. Liz Kelly, whose government sponsored study is forming the basis for proposed reform in the UK's rape laws, has said: "Sexual violence includes any physical, visual, verbal or sexual act that is experienced by the woman or girl, at the time or later, as a threat, invasion or assault that has the effect of hurting her or degrading her and/or taken away her ability to control intimate contact."

And: "(Hetero)sexual culture thus reproduces the conditions in which coercive sex is commonplace . . . ."

And: "There is no clear distinction . . . between consensual sex and rape, but a continuum of pressure, threat, coercion and force. The concept of a continuum validates the sense of abuse women feel when they do not freely consent to sex . . . ."

And: "The fact is, any man can be a rapist."

As I explained here http://falserapesociety.blogspot.com/2009/05/british-study-says-rape-is-rampant.html She seems to advocate changing the trial system for rape to an inquisitorial system whereby both the accuser and the accused would be forced to answer questions posed by the court on a charge of rape (-- yes, it really does sound like the Spanish Inquisition). She would not be alone in advocating this -- it's a position other extremists have adopted. In the U.S. and the UK, of course, a defendant currently has the cherished right not to testify and to question his accuser. But why should any fundamental rights apply to men accused of rape? The goal, after all, is to jack up rape conviction rates.

Scary, isn't it?

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so theres a LOT of difference branches of feminist philosophy. There is liberal feminism, cultural feminism, sex positive feminism, jewish feminisms, eco feminism, anarcho feminism etc... All these have their own ideas on what feminism is.

Now historically feminism split into two during what is called the "feminist sex wars". Cultural feminists were against pornography and sex positive feminists were okay with pornagraphy. In my opinion sex positive feminists have a much healthier view of sex.

Now feminist philosophy developed a cannon much like any other schools of thought. Simmone De Bu Voir, Judith Butler, Betty Friedan, Bell Hooks, focout would be considered part of this cannon.

But just like any cannon, certain members of the cannon disagree with each other. For example, Bell Hooks critisizes Betty Friedan.

I hope this clears it up for you.

[–]brunt2 5 points6 points7 points 16 years ago* (26 children) | Copy Link

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My take on this: I look forward to the day when history is taught sufficiently gender neutral that there is no need for a special "women's only" stream. It's not like a given history course couldn't use something besides "dead european males and the wars they fought in."

Not that I'm discounting the importance of the above: look at any map and you're looking at the history of the wars of that region. I just don't think it should be the sole focus.

However, by labeling it as "women's studies" or even, "wymen's studies," the message sent is not exactly inclusive. Maybe it's just the name, on some subconscious level, there's something about the possessive that says "this is a course FOR women" instead of "this is a course ABOUT women."

Huh... maybe that's a problem Men's Rights has...

On a final note, thanks for noticing the fact that men and women are oppressed in different ways. For 90% of the males, it sucks being in a society dominated by the top 10% of men just as much in different ways. And that's the kind of thing that, when said, sounds much more reasonable than the "men oppress women" dialogue that makes a lot of men feel feminism is about academically validating a victim complex.

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[–]PierceHarlan -1 points0 points1 point 16 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Oh, my, oh, my. What a lousy judge, and lawyer, you'd make. Absolutely lousy. You would have us believe that the author of this inane quote "misspoke," I suppose, so her post needs to be reformed (a legal concept) to reflect her true intention. Funny, there is no indication that the author did not mean exactly what she said. The words are clear and unambiguous on their face, and there is no need to read them out of the post, or to give them a different meaning based on other portions of the post. You would have us ascribe an entirely different meaning -- a meaning that happens to match what you want the words to say -- to words that admit of no parol evidence to "explain" them.

Your post violates every established canon of construction -- every single one -- because you don't happen to like what the plain words mean. Well, despite all your twisting and pounding, you just can't rewrite these awful, awful words under the guise of "interpreting" them. Sorry. Nice try.

[–]aardvarkious -1 points0 points1 point 16 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

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[–]PierceHarlan -2 points-1 points0 points 16 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Oh, my, oh, my. What a lousy judge, and lawyer, you'd make. Absolutely lousy. You would have us believe that the author of this inane quote "misspoke," I suppose, so her post needs to be reformed (a legal concept) to reflect her true intention. Funny, there is no indication that the author did not mean exactly what she said. The words are clear and unambiguous on their face, and there is no need to read them out of the post, or to give them a different meaning based on other portions of the post. You would have us ascribe an entirely different meaning -- a meaning that happens to match what you want the words to say -- to words that admit of no parol evidence to "explain" them.

Your post violates every established canon of construction -- every single one -- because you don't happen to like what the plain words mean. Well, despite all your twisting and pounding, you just can't rewrite these awful, awful words under the guise of "interpreting" them. Sorry. Nice try.

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[–]ladyskins 2 points3 points4 points 16 years ago* (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]BestServedCold 1 point2 points3 points 16 years ago* (2 children) | Copy Link

Wow.

Well, let me say that I kind of agree with his "clincher". I see what he was going for about the disparity between female rights and female responsibility. I'm not sure how well he expressed it but I THINK I see where he was going.

It becomes tougher to give him the benefit of the doubt about his racism when he called Nigeria "Niggeria".

Full disclosure - I got called out once for calling someone a "faggot" on these boards. I don't consider myself a homophobe but I can't guarantee I'll never use that word again (but I'm trying).

I believe this subreddit has its hands full with gender issues. We don't have room to take on race as well. But I personally welcome men of all races, religions, and nationalities, as well as women who aren't hostile to our interests.

I hope other MRAs besides soapergem call you out for this, Oliveretto.

[–]ladyskins 1 point2 points3 points 16 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

I kind of agree with his "clincher". I see what he was going for about the disparity between female rights and female responsibility. I'm not sure how well he expressed it but I THINK I see where he was going.

Damn. That spelling error bothers me, but I'll leave it so you don't sound retarded by putting it in quotes.

More seriously, I can kind of understand his thought process, but it doesn't add up logically or practically. It starts with the assumption that women are children, which directly leads to the justification of women being punished with a far lighter hand than men. That would mean that men deserve to be punished far more than women for the same crimes. It also leads to the conclusion that all intercourse is rape, because women don't have the capacity to consent.

All of that is total bullshit. No one should be held to a higher or lesser standard because of their gender.

I hope other MRAs besides soapergem call you out for this.

That confused me at first. Did you mean that others call Oliverotto out for this or me?

[–]BestServedCold 2 points3 points4 points 16 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Title	A feminist definition of sexual assault
Author	[deleted]
Upvotes	30
Comments	75
Date	August 19, 2009 12:25 PM UTC (16 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/9c28y/a_feminist_definition_of_sexual_assault/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/a-feminist-definition-of-sexual-assault.1053258 https://theredarchive.com/post/1053258

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