What feminists get right about the men's rights "movement"

CleavyBeavy · 2020-12-27T22:18:40+00:00

I agree wholeheartedly but I for one think feminism actively discourages any sort of male advocacy, either passively or not. People are completely justified in being angry with feminism. From my personal experience, I fell for the "do you believe in equal rights? Then you are a feminist" marketing pitch and then became embittered when I saw exactly how (hateful) feminists set a pecking order of oppression and actively doscourage any sort of male advocacy, twist statistics to paint a false picture. You can see how such actions might inhibit the movement toward equality?

I do think we need to advocate for men's rights. Advocate completely independently from feminism. The way this looks from the outside, it pretty much looks like a bitter movement. Men have real problems, none of which are important to the mainstream and we need to air those problems out on their own.

mhandanna · 2020-12-28T00:33:14+00:00

I'm not saying it's easy but if men's rights advocates just create professional websites like intactamerica and yourwholebaby and distribute posters at high schools/colleges/political conventions on various men's rights issues without mention of feminism things will change very fast. because most people agree with us already. feminists are winning because they face no opposition.

Excellent post... this x 1000

I realised something from MRA reddit, when I put feminsim in the title and make it about feminsim it gets sometimes 10x the views, sometimes a 100x (which is why on those posts I put feminsim as the topic instead of jus talking about issue from mens POV)... which is not what we want.... this place is much better... higher quality posts actually get views.

This is next years resolution. Posting high quality content without discussing feminism.

This is one of the best mens rights, here health, websites around and it is actually made by prope MRAs

https://www.amhf.org.au/exactly_how_big_is_the_gender_health_gap

yet it doesn't mention feminism at all

There definitely needs to be much more of that

Above approach will appeal to public more, yes it will still get backlash from feminism, but that will make those feminist look very unreasonable even crazy.

As for anti feminism, I think that is best left to the anti feminists. MRA and anti feminism IMO should be very different.

This is where menslib NEARLY gets it right.... if men lib was NON feminist and also didn't criticise feminism a great deal, sure Im on board wit that.... but its feminist and then doing all its shit of censorship etc, not really getting to heart of issues.

Using Menslib is a goal for next year too.... as I think it would be more fruitful to push menslib into a more activist direction about real mens issues e.g. under achievement in education, mens health than it would to get MRA men reddit which is full of too many people who dont understand gender issues (fair enough, I dont expect your casual person to) and is too much UGHHHH wreck feminsim!! OK yeah Im guilty of that with my shit posts!!

Skirt_Douglas · 2020-12-27T22:54:36+00:00

Something I have been saying is that we need to "fight" feminists when and only when they present themselves as the opponents of our activism. Even then, we need to understand the difference between being against certain ideas that feminist institutions are currently holding on to 2020, such as the duluth model, and hyperbolic views of male privilege, verse fighting the entire fucking movement of feminism forever. Activism first, fighting feminists only when it is necessary to secure our goals.

A men's movement that cannot accept a woman's movement will never be accepted by the mainstream world, and I don't know about you guys but I really getting sick of feeling like I can't come out of the closet with advocating for men's issues without being ruined.

Vandechoz · 2020-12-28T06:18:37+00:00

The #1 thing I think the MRM really lacks is a megarich financial backer. Especially someone famous, so when they publicly give a donation to one of the few on-the-ground men's activist (not just advocacy) groups, they set a bar for others to meet.

It worked for women:

In 1917, Sarah Addington, a reporter for the New-York Tribune, described how women in the audience at an important suffrage meeting in Saratoga Springs, N.Y., swooned over the financier James Lees Laidlaw, the Men’s League [for Woman Suffrage]’s national president. They envied his wife, the New York suffrage leader Harriet Burton Laidlaw, as “the luckiest woman in the world.” Not only did her husband lead the League and help support the movement financially, but he rode horseback at the front of the men’s delegations in the suffrage parades, accompanied his wife on state and cross-country campaign road trips, and staged events with her across Long Island from their summer residence in Sands Point.

...[The League] had power, influence, and national prominence—status they had achieved as businessmen, financiers, attorneys, jurists, politicians, academics, scientists, writers, editors, and publishers.

... Big political backers of Woodrow Wilson who were members of the League did not hesitate to demand the president see them on short notice to talk suffrage.

Blauwpetje · 2020-12-28T10:55:16+00:00

No, they don't. First, because it is a lame argument: when criticized, saying: oooh, is that all you can do?, instead of looking at the big flaws in your movement. Criticizing feminism is one of the necessary functions of the MRM. Second, because feminism itself is a lot worse about this: shouting 'patriarchy hurts men too' and setting up or tolerating feminist men's groups that are all about learning to cry and... be good allies for women. Third, because men's initiatives get no support. I was trying to organize a single men's support group with help of the local social work, but their attitude was something between carelessness and outright sabotage. I read in the Dutch De Groene (left-wing and normally even rather woke) that these things happen all the time. And that's nothing compared to feminists attacking Men's Conferences etc., we all know the videos.

That said, I'm all for more subtle and indirect tactics. (My idea about that support group was one of them). I'm also for more discussion about complicated issues here (and often try to start them) and not just posts proving men get the short and of the stick again, but the second kind gets upvoted more and the weekly top ten only stimulates that kind of posts. I also proposed one or two times to pin a 'strategy' post on top of this sub, where people permanently can share practical ideas, but I just heard 'yeah, good idea', but there was no concrete action.

helloiseeyou2020 · 2020-12-27T22:29:25+00:00

Couldn't agree more. Ive never seen a single discussion of a male issue run course its course without feminism being dragged into it, not once. The Outrage-Industrial Complex hasn't helped with hundreds if YouTubers making a living off of positioning themselves as anti-feminists who then get shared in MRA circles

The reality is that:

Bitching is not activism - not even for trendy opinions & causespeople actually want to hear about i.e. BLM
Many men's issues have nothing to do with feminism at all, and some that intersect with it are nonetheless changeable by attacking an unrelated root cause
Whether feminism has ever intersected with an issue or not, attacking feminism accomplishes literally nothing except tying the problem you want to solve, falsely, with 'anti-feminism'.

Write letters, write emails, share portals through which we can do so here so othera can alsonwrote in on an issue when within the appropriate jurisdiction. Do any kind of REAL advocacy. Leave feminism out of it.

2020-12-29T17:39:41+00:00

[permanently deleted]

theromanshcheezit · 2020-12-29T18:13:15+00:00

I have to disagree with your post because, while I think Men's advocacy could be doing more to help men, Reddit is not real life and there are plenty of Men's Rights/Male advocacy centered organizations that do real research and participate in real advocacy for men.

Here's a short list of some of the accomplishments of Men's Rights movements.

But to expand upon it, places like the National Coalition for Men have achieved a lot of victories when it came to assuring father's rights. Men's Legal Center headed by Marc E. Angelucci literally fought and won in Woods vs Horton for overturning sex-based discrimination in domestic violence aid. Parity, a UK-based organization, worked with the BBC to cover and bring awareness to boys' educational underachievement (look at page 5/12). The Mankind Initiative (who makes ads), the University of Cumbria (which made this eye-opening video), and the Male Psychology Network are all examples of researchers and research institutions that bring awareness to and catalog issues that men face.

When I hear arguments like "All Men's Rights groups do is shit on feminism. They never try to help men. They're just a reaction to feminism. That's why feminism is 'winning'" I cringe immensely because usually the person with that opinion has one of a couple of biases:

They never really tried looking into male advocacy and men's rights organizations. This is the most common in my experience. Many people think that Men's Rights is only on the internet and has no grounding in real life. As I've shown above, this is false.
They don't consider the organizations that I listed above as being pro-men's rights. This typically happens over at r/MensLib. The reason why Men's Rights are categorized differently than all these organizations is because the definition they have of men's rights excludes male advocacy as if they aren't one and the same (or at least fighting for the same issues). In that sense, their construction of Men's Rights is self-fulfilling. i.e.. If I think Men's Rights are people who are simply anti-feminist and don't help men, then any organization that does help men is not part of Men's Rights. This is by far the most annoying one.
They are comparing feminism to Men's Rights as if they are comparable. Feminism is a movement that started in 1848 with the Declaration of Sentiments and the Seneca Falls Convention. It has almost 200 years of existence. It took 72 years from then to get women the right to vote. 110 years for the movement to be popular enough to get women to vote in the same force as men and 130 years to get the Equal Rights Amendment through the House/Senate and 35 state legislatures. In contrast the modern Men's Rights Movement (if we start with Warren Farrell) didn't exist until the 1970s. It been in existence for just under 50 years. Why the fuck would anyone compare the two?!

And to your last point about feminists "winning", they aren't winning because male advocates aren't "doing enough", they're winning because they are quite literally in the positions of institutional power simply because they are older. Why does everyone just ignore this blatantly obvious fact. They're older, more well established, and have millions of dollars more than any Men's Rights organization. In fact, amongst American women a majority do not not identify as feminists (posed as a straight-forward question) because feminism has a polarizing and negative connotation even if most people do agree with gender equality.

gurthanix · 2020-12-28T06:30:10+00:00

feminists are winning because they face no opposition.

This is a very good point. While there's a lot of pushback from MRM entities against feminist rhetoric, thinking and policy, there's very little those entities do to offer competition to feminist activism. Analysis is all well and good, but at the end of the day you need boots-on-the-ground activism to actually translate all that theory into real world change. It's not enough just to convince people that feminism has bad theoretical models or bad practical policies, you have to offer them an alternative. You need to formulate specific policies, draft arguments for those policies designed to convince the general public, promulgate those policies and arguments, and ultimately pressure decision-makers to implement those policies.

rodrigohernandez4477 · 2020-12-29T10:26:20+00:00

Yeah, we can organise protest marches, distribute flyers everywhere, create graphitis, make advertisements, workshops, youtube channels, etc. and all those things with the issues boys and men have as topic to raise awareness about them which is the first step to tackle them by society and institutions and to get more support by the mainstream. Now there's opposition due to the illusion feminist propaganda created that males are the "priviledged". We can debunk this illusion by spreading everywhere the issues boys and men have, on the other hand, apart from the advantages.

Most people can't name a single issue of boys and men. Most boys and men don't even are aware that they get abused, when its the case.

rodrigohernandez4477 · 2020-12-29T10:40:27+00:00

If you don't want your identity to get screwed by with feminism sympathizing MSM, feminists or ignorant and biased persons (falsely portraying you as fascists, far right, misogynist, etc. to undermine the fight against boys and mens discriminations and problems), I recommend to wear masks during protests, e.g. those from money heist.

This way you can carry out protests anonymously or wear those corona-masks that cover the big majority of your face, also to distribute flyers, create graphitis, etc. This way you're protected professionally, socially, etc. from negative repercussions.

Title	What feminists get right about the men's rights "movement"
Author	OkLetterhead10
Upvotes	28
Comments	32
Date	December 27, 2020 8:37 PM UTC (5 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates/comments/klaz0i/what_feminists_get_right_about_the_mens_rights/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates/what-feminists-get-right-about-the-mens-rights.1062242 https://theredarchive.com/post/1062242

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