regarding your opinion and popular opinion: do you consider rape to be a worse offense than murder? just an observation from what i see in comments all around reddit

Eulabeia · 2013-11-21T01:54:48+00:00

Saying that rape is worse than murder is a very dangerous thing to do, and can be especially harmful to rape victims trying to cope with what happened to them. If we judge a crime by what is committed against the victim, then claiming that rape is worse than murder is literally saying, "It's better to get killed than to be raped."

This line of reasoning argues that rape victims might as well be dead because that would be a better fate than being a rape victim. How the hell is anybody supposed to deal with and move beyond being raped if people keep insisting that they are irreparably damaged and would be better off dead?

Bartab · 2013-11-21T00:51:58+00:00

By my morality and ethics, rape is not worse than murder. Not by a long shot.

In US law, rape is worse than murder. The penalty for both is potentially life imprisonment, but the accused has less legal protections in rape cases than in murders.

Artector42 · 2013-11-21T01:32:33+00:00

The weight of crimes becomes extremely complex, to say the least. You have factors involving harm done, emotional damage, actual damage, reputation, and victimization (Best way to phrase it off the top of my head)

However, if we wish to weigh the two crimes we need to have some objective view. The subjective will always be able to add immeasurable weight. And these are human events, so we will have to take perspective.

From the human view: Would I rather die or be raped? I would say be raped. Because when I die, I'm gone*. I can't have anymore happy moments, can't recover and can't reproduce.

From the societal view: Would you rather a citizen be raped or murdered? I would again say raped. Simple math here, if a person is murdered society will lose 2 productive members (the perp and the victim). If a person is raped then society more likely loses 1 member (the perp) and the victim could become productive again.

So from what I think is a reasonably unbiased viewpoint murder is worse.

I do note though from your conclusion that you get the consensus that rape is worse. I think there's several factors at play here. 1) Emotions, 2) Selection Bias

1) Emotions, people become blinded by them. Parents want pedophiles mutilated, rape victims want their agressors harmed, people want revenge. They have a great deal of anger.

2) There's no survivors of murder. So the wronged can never speak. But we do have plenty (sadly) survivors of rape, and we can hear their story we can know how they feel, how it affects their daily life, what it means to them to have been raped.

Both of these factors and more tie into this general consensus that rape is worse, IMHO.

And here's the last thing I have to say (for now), circumstances matter. Was a murder victim sadistically tortured? Or a victim of a stray bullet? Did the rapist beat their victim? Or did they slip them a roofie? There's a reason we have manslaughter, murder 1, and murder 2. We as a society acknowledge the severity of the crime (for murder) and punish accordingly. I don't know if rape should be similar, while breaking someones jaw is worse than a roofie should they be punished differently? That's a question I would need more study on I think.

*or for the theists out there "in heaven/hell/re-incarnated"

PS: I in no way condone rape. Or murder. Both are heinous.

2013-11-21T01:48:58+00:00

You have an opportunity to overcome rape and move on with your life...when you're dead, that's it. There's no seeing a therapist or getting over anything. You simply cease to exist. So yes, in my opinion, murder is worse than rape.

2013-11-21T04:02:16+00:00

Having known victims who are now living perfectly happy lives, I'm calling bullshit; after all, if death was better, we wouldn't have rape cases, just a lot more suicides, but those killing themselves are mostly men.

Historically, we didn't have safe abortions or child birth, we didn't have penicillin for syphilis, we didn't have government aid, we didn't have a lot of things, and so rape was likely a slow death-sentence for many; a slow death-sentence is arguably worse than a quick murder, so perhaps back then it was... but we don't live back then.

Additionally, back then rape was far closer to "attempting/forcing a pregnancy without consent", than to "sex without consent", thus why it was gender specific (men cannot get pregnant); and, this is also why spousal rape wasn't rape (consent to marriage was consent to children), and why when consent was withdrawn mid-coitus, it was only assault (she had already consented to the potential pregnancy).

The real problem comes when drunken mistakes, and other petty experiences, are added to the definition of rape; now choosing to have one more drink, then choosing to have sex, is worse than murder? Never mind that if the choice was to drive, one might end up actually killing people.

Of course, if that one more drink makes you unconscious, that's rape; if it makes you incoherent, it sort of depends on the state the other person is in, and their intent:

You are incoherent, they are sober, but arrangements were made earlier (think significant other).
You are incoherent, they are sober, but everything is consensual.
You are incoherent, they are sober, and they rape you.
You are incoherent, so are they, but arrangements were made earlier (think significant other).
You are incoherent, so are they, but everything is consensual.
You are incoherent, so are they, and they rape you.

TL;DR - Perhaps rape was worse than murder, but those reasons have all but been eliminated by "the evil patriarchy"; however, the definition of rape has become so wide that such a claim is tantamount to saying that a drunken mistake is worse than death, which is horse-shit.

PS. Sorry for the wandering train of thought, but by feminist definitions, if I were a woman, I'd be the victim of a lot of rapes; I mean, we're talking like 20-40 minimum, the number would be much higher if my female friends didn't respect my girlfriends more than me.

newmobsforall · 2013-11-21T04:10:55+00:00

No, because it is very hard to get over getting killed. Even with a great deal of therapy, time, understanding, and the support of good friends, bouncing back from being murdered and going on to enjoy a full, productive existence just doesn't seem to happen.

ibm2431 · 2013-11-21T04:55:17+00:00

No. And anyone who says otherwise is a fucking idiot.

I do not know of anyone who has experienced rape (myself included) that would have rather been killed than "have to live with the trauma".

Saying it's worse is ignorant, offensive, and dangerous (if a society treats rape as worse than murder, what does a rapist have to lose by killing thier victim?)

^{^{^Please}} ^{^{^do}} ^{^{^not}} ^{^{^try}} ^{^{^to}} ^{^{^console}} ^{^{^me.}}

Eulabeia · 2013-11-21T00:42:22+00:00

[permanently deleted]

levelate · 2013-11-21T02:04:34+00:00

i'm not sure why or even how this question crops up.

it is a no brainer, of course murder is worse than rape.

when you kill someone, you take away all they are and all they are ever going to be.

DaedeM · 2013-11-21T01:22:03+00:00

I can't really say. On one hand, a rape victim has to live through their experience, on the other hand they actually get to continue living and have a chance to deal with, and put behind them, the trauma they suffered.

I think if I were to consider the two long term, murder is worse because I do not believe in the after life so there are no second chances after being murdered.

2013-11-21T01:49:53+00:00

The relative 'badness' of the two crimes does come up often, so I have spent some time reading and thinking about it.

One thing to note is that if rape WERE worse, it would be because of having to live on afterwards, so in that case 'it would be better if he had killed me' becomes a thing you hear spoken aloud and or in the darker quiet moments of your introspection.

The harm done by a murder to his victim is partly very real and quantifiable, partly only to be imagined. The victim has lost her life, suffering in the process, and is robbed of potentially happy old age, dreams unfulfilled, children unborn, loved ones left in grief and loneliness.

But let us consider those loved ones, they have to live each day, live on, in the same sense as the rape victim must. If rape is worse than murder, could it be then that the surviving husband of a murdered wife has been done a greater injury than was his departed spouse?

Along the path of this kind of reasoning lies ideas like, 'women are the REAL victims of war, the men died, sure, but women had to live on.'

i mean, i don't have the answer to the relative weights question, but I think it's far to say that both rape and murder are very bad crimes which should be discouraged n any practical and just means.

those aspects of the harm done to a person which are in the nature of 'lost potentials, lost futures' are simply not able to be quantified and any act of comparing 2 sets of them will be a challenge when we can not see ether per se.

Ted8367 · 2013-11-21T02:45:14+00:00

First, you need to sort out whether rape is worse than rape. Then you can answer questions like "Is drunk sex worse than murder?" or maybe "Is sex with a 15-year-old worse than murder?".

Rape isn't what it used to be. Times past, there was a premium on virginity, sexual exclusivity, all centered around the ownership of and liabilities for children. Rape could severely reduce a woman's life chances, and there would be a hit on her husband too. Starting with the development of reliable contraception, that's much reduced these days; and changes continue.

Rape is much more than it used to be. Or rather, there seems to be a lot more of it than there used to be.

So no, neither rape nor rape is worse than murder.

2013-11-21T02:48:35+00:00

Does it matter?

Eulabeia · 2013-11-21T04:26:09+00:00

the general consensus on reddit seems to be that rape is a much more serious crime than murder

I don't think most people actually think that, it just seems like a vocal minority of people who are obsessed with rape in the first place that think that. And of course those people are more likely to chime in with their opinions on the topic.

2013-11-21T06:03:26+00:00

If you got people under your control and gave them the option to either submit to sex with you or get killed, what would their answers be?
Obviously making such a study is not a possibility, but we can look at real attempted rape cases for answers.

Poisoninthewound · 2013-11-21T09:00:07+00:00

Rape is rarely a solitary crime. It is generally accompanied by other acts of violence or force that can vary across a tremendous spectrum of intensity.

At a certain point, the rape itself can become sexualized torture. Torture can easily be worse than murder in terms of personal and societal harm.

In the end, it's a somewhat subjective question with a fair few variables, but I would say that murder is worse as it tends to cause more long term and immediate suffering. It's also inevitably more permanent.

sre01 · 2013-11-21T06:45:36+00:00

I was molested by older boys when I was a kid, and raped at a party in my early 20s. No, no it is not. I don't really suffer many issues from it at all really. However if I was murdered, I wouldn't be here living this pretty awesome life I have now.

rightsbot · 2013-11-21T00:24:17+00:00

Post text automatically copied here. (Why?) (Report a problem.)

Collective82 · 2013-11-21T04:39:26+00:00

Rape as it used to be not what it has become in my mind is the worst. If your dead your dead heaven or hell, or nothing at all.

Rape however leaves you alive with A grievous injury you keep for life. It affects all aspects especially your most intimate parts. You can't undo rape or forget about it. You have to live with it or "opt out". But death is final and the end to your worldly suffering.

ShawnGH · 2013-11-21T08:50:59+00:00

What is happening is that rape culture propaganda is being pushed by the fascisti in order to continue their standard tactic of dividing and conquering the populace.

You will see article after article promoted showing rape in india, but never all the auto collisions that maim and kill people. We could build a guide rail system so that cars wouldn't collide, but the fascists don't want that, so it will not be reported.

But they do want people to argue about gay marriage, because while you do that, you aren't talking about nailing bankster whores to trees.

2013-11-21T08:54:04+00:00

No. The people who say that are histrionic children.

If death was better than being a rape victim, why don't they just kill themselves? And yet, even rape victims rarely commit suicide. So quite obviously, the people who claim otherwise are simply talking out of their ass.

rapiertwit · 2013-11-21T10:50:10+00:00

There are different kinds of rape and different kinds of murders. The most sadistic and brutal rape is more horrific and unthinkable to me than some unpremeditated crime of passion murders. Kidnapping and imprisoning multiple people for years of sexual slavery is definitely worse than giving someone a fatal brain hemmorhage in a bar fight. But murdering your parents for the inheritance money is worse than someone who's having consensual sex but doesn't stop when consent is retracted.

Pecanpig · 2013-11-21T02:35:36+00:00

I see it as a relatively minor crime, similar to assault in most ways (including a severe disparity in severity).

C0CKPUNCHER · 2013-11-21T07:47:21+00:00

Rape bad
Murder worse
Torture worst.

RBGolbat · 2013-11-21T00:52:28+00:00

Rape and Murder are equally horrific crimes. With both, the families and people who knew the person can be heavily effected by it. But the difference is that the person live through the rape and has to deal with consequences of it themselves afterwards.

Title	regarding your opinion and popular opinion: do you consider rape to be a worse offense than murder? just an observation from what i see in comments all around reddit
Author	[deleted]
Upvotes	10
Comments	41
Date	November 21, 2013 12:23 AM UTC (12 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/1r3n51/regarding_your_opinion_and_popular_opinion_do_you/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/regarding-your-opinion-and-popular-opinion-do-you.1158254 https://theredarchive.com/post/1158254

Comments