Please hear me out..

[deleted] · 2013-05-29T20:37:28+00:00

I used to think I was a feminist but after discussing my gender views with my friend, he feels I am not a feminist, but for equal rights for all genders....

[–]oneiorosgrip 8 points9 points10 points 13 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

First, don't mistake the term "feminist" for being synonymous with "women." Not all women are feminists.
Feminism isn't synonymous with women's rights, either. The active, world-effecting feminist movement is a political movement that uses public support for women's rights as a PR tool.
You can support women's rights without calling yourself a feminist.

Second, the Not All Feminists Are Like That argument is old, outdated, and meaningless in the face of the reality of what feminism means to society.

The NAFALT argument looks entirely different from the perspective of a group whose rights have been attacked by feminist activism than it does to you.

The NAFALT argument has been debunked.

The NAFALT argument has been destroyed.

Frankly, if you really are for equal rights for all genders, your friend is right - you're not really a feminist. Identifying with the name is unwise, because it identifies you with a movement that from your own statements, seems like it really doesn't match up to the person who you are.

[–]indigotrip 0 points1 point2 points 13 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

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[–]Piroko 5 points6 points7 points 13 years ago* (31 children) | Copy Link

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[–]Piroko 1 point2 points3 points 13 years ago (29 children) | Copy Link

[–]indigotrip 0 points1 point2 points 13 years ago (28 children) | Copy Link

I just don't feel that each individual should be faced with predjudice because of what they fight for. I also don't really agree with the whole German thing. People get scared and they just try to live their lives. So I wouldn't say that all Germans at that time were to blame. but I know that's not really the point. In the UK there are man people who say they are feminist (and define this as the support of women's rights in social, economic and political aspects) but they do not agree with 'militant feminists' as they call them. And this isn't just day to day conversation, politicians and the media use this definition. So it is understandable if people would believe they are a feminist although they may not agree at all with 'militant feminists'. If I had said to someone I was a femninst and I was greeted with hate and blame from men then I would probably think less of men. I'm just saying that judging all people who call themselves feminists as militant crazy women, isn't helping the men's rights side either. We should all treat each other with respect unless someone has given us a reason not to.

[–]King_Turnip 2 points3 points4 points 13 years ago (17 children) | Copy Link

The German analogy is actually very apt. The German people did not, by and large, support the extermination of the Jews. They did, however, support a cadre of fanatics that do. The rank-and-file moderate feminist is providing cover, support and weight to the juicy fanatic core of radical feminists. Just like the average German voter enabled Hiler, Goebbels, et al. to commit horrible acts, the moderate NAFALT/ "I'm not like that!" feminist enables the fanatics like Andrea Dworkin and Valerie Solanis.

I just don't feel that each individual should be faced with predjudice because of what they fight for.

So you're against judging Nazis? We should certainly judge people by what they support and fight for. I can think of no better rubric to judge the character of an individual by.

In the UK there are man people who say they are feminist (and define this as the support of women's rights in social, economic and political aspects) but they do not agree with 'militant feminists' as they call them.

There were plenty of Jewish Fascists in Italy--a majority of Italian Jews were Fascists...right up until they started being loaded onto trains by their fellow Fascists. We should oppose Fascism--and by extention feminism--even if there are our fellows who support it.

[–]indigotrip -2 points-1 points0 points 13 years ago (16 children) | Copy Link

But then you are also saying that Muslim people are supporting their extremists just by having the same beliefs, or that all Christians are just supporting the Westboro Baptist Church because they have the same beliefs.

And I said I don't believe people should be faced with prejudice. I.e. they should not be judged on because of they name they use to describe themselves, but of course if their beliefs will harm others then their views should not be respected. ie. If someone said they were a feminist I wouldn't instantly think they were going to scream from the rooftops about how men are evil, just the same way as if I would meet a Muslim and not assume they hate the west.

And on the last point there, I was not suggesting that because they are politics that feminism is okay, what I was saying is that in the UK the definition of feminism seems to include those people just supporting women's rights, right up to those hating on men.

I am not supporting 'militant feminists' I'm simply suggesting that there may be people just trying to do good for women and these people shouldn't be judged because of the actions of others.

[–]Piroko 0 points1 point2 points 13 years ago* (15 children) | Copy Link

I am not supporting 'militant feminists'

As long as you call yourself a feminist you condone their actions.

Fundamentally religions are different from sociopolitical lobby groups. Feminism and National Socialism are alike in the regard that they are seeking to affect political change to their advantage at the expense of another class.

You can be judged for being part of a sociopolitical lobby in ways you cannot be judged for being a member of a religion.

Why?

Because you, as a citizen, are entrusted with a share of the responsibility of the actions of the state. This is the case in the United States, and in Germany.

If the state does shitty things and you supported the people who called for doing those shitty things, YOUR HANDS ARE DIRTY. Because you are a citizen. That door swings both ways. Rights, and responsibilities. If you did nothing to oppose the shitty actions, your hands are dirty but less dirty.

The only citizens who are absolved are those who dissent.

That's why the German people were treated thusly by Roosevelt and then Truman... because the GOOD GERMANS WERE ALL DEAD. Everyone alive had blood on their hands.

[–]indigotrip 1 point2 points3 points 13 years ago* (14 children) | Copy Link

You are being prejudice towards me though. I'm not calling myself a feminist whatsoever. What I am saying is that many people don't agree that feminism is purely militant feminist and its actually more of a grey subject than black and white. All I wanted to say was not all women are like this, the majority of women you meet on a day to day basis will be level headed well rounded people who believe everyone in this world should be equal. Men/women/LGBT/religious/any race. It shouldn't matter. My friend says she's feminist but thinks that men should have the same rights as women, and she is met with plenty of hatred from men on the internet, saying that she is a bad person for thinking women are better than men, but she never says this, it is just these people making assumptions about her.

EDIT: to reply to your edit. I just don't feel the same about the citizen/state argument with Germany. For example there could be people living in Germany who wanted to leave but could not because of financial reasons and they had to stay and speak up and be killed, or just stay and live their lives. When its a question of life and death people want to survive, its instinct. Therefore people who stayed quiet so there families would live shouldn't have to have the blood of the Nazis on there hands. Also here in Scotland, we never vote for a Right Wing government, but here we are being governed by the Conservatives. I'd say this is a unique case, as even when our whole country votes left it doesn't make a dent in the polls. Therefore I would never want to be associated with the choices of the UK's government today because I nor my country voted them in.

EDIT2: I understand thats not really anything to do with gender issues :P but I just think that we should all treat each other with respect and hear people out before labelling them as a militant. But of course if after you've heard them out and they are being unfair or unequal then of course they should have their opinions challenged.

[–]Piroko 1 point2 points3 points 13 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

[–]indigotrip -1 points0 points1 point 13 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[–]Piroko1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]indigotrip1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Its all black and white when it comes to right and wrong but when you are actually in the position things will change. For example, in a logical state of mind I would personally get an abortion if I fell pregnant as a teenager because I would not be able to support the child etc. However, when I was 16 I was faced with the potential of being pregnant and my views completely changed because I thought I might actually be pregnant, the decision wasn't as easy. Luckily it was all a scare so it didn't come to anything anyway. What I'm trying to say is its human instinct to survive no matter what. Nobody can really argue that. So in the face of death everyone will try and live. Many people fleed the country and they were given respect, but those who could not afford to leave and were forced to stay are met with disgust? Doesn't really seem to be fair. I understand that being a bystander in certain situations makes you an accessory to the crime. For example, with bullying. Standing by and seeing someone be belittled and even physically hurt and not doing anything about it when you can is wrong. But not doing anything because that bully has a gun pointed at you and threatens you, thats a different story. I'm not saying its right, but I understand just standing by if you think you are going to die. If I was living there at the time I would like to think I would do something about it, but blaming people for the actions of evil men simply because they were too terrified to act doesn't seem fair.

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[–]indigotrip1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I'm really confused as to why I'm being disregarded here. I believe in gender equality for all and I came on here willing to have an open discussion and it has been very interesting. I just wanted to say that in the media over here that feminism is seen as a much bigger group of people, not simply 'militant feminists', and maybe don't judge a book by its cover. I do understand that you believe a 'feminist' is purely what I would describe as 'militant feminist' but not all people see it as black and white as this. I don't really think that there has been anything morally wrong in what I have said, but please correct me if you feel otherwise. I just believe that we (men and women who believe in gender equality) should be working together because he divide isn't really helping our issues at all.

[–]indigotrip1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

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[–]OttifantSir 0 points1 point2 points 13 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

[–]indigotrip -1 points0 points1 point 13 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

Isn't it a known fact that men in general are better leaders? They are genetically programmed to lead and be stronger than women. Thats just how it is. Of course there are females who are great leaders, and great athletes, just as there are men who are not. People vary because they are people not because of gender. But when it comes down to genetics there are just things men are better at, just like there are things that women can do that men cant... like have children :P Its biology, of course we are different and better at some things than others, but as long as we can respect each other for our strengths and weaknesses then feminism and patriarchy shouldn't exist.

And all this 'men will become redundant as soon as we can have children on our own' is absolute bullshit. Some women just feel they need to take on the world because its out to get them when its not.

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[–][deleted] 5 points6 points7 points 13 years ago (54 children) | Copy Link

[–]indigotrip 1 point2 points3 points 13 years ago* (53 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points4 points 13 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

I'm fairly left leaning and for the longest time I identified as a feminist. I did this because I thought that simply being for equal rights was a minimalist position. I thought the moral position was to work with women to empower them to their fullest potential.

The thing is, even as an MRA, I still believe everything above. Except I no longer consider myself a feminist.

Why?

Two things (1) checking my privilege - I couldn't reconcile why in order to empower women I needed to disempower myself. Whenever I saw something I disagreed with, why I needed to shut up and be a "good ally". (2) demonizing men - I couldn't reconcile why the thought leaders in feminism always defaulted to seeing women as victims and implicitly (sometimes explicitly) men as oppressors. This wasn't the empowering movement I thought I belonged to.

As an example, see the demands of feminists on facebook regarding some truly misogynistic ads:

"Recognize speech that trivializes or glorifies violence against girls and women as hate speech and make a commitment that you will not tolerate this content.

"Effectively train moderators to recognize and remove gender-based hate speech.

"Effectively train moderators to understand how online harassment differently affects women and men, in part due to the real-world pandemic of violence against women."

These aren't the demands of an equality or empowerment or even justice movement. They're written with the exclusive purpose to further the narrative that "men oppress women".

Feminism is expressly divisive for the purpose of being misandric.

[–]indigotrip 2 points3 points4 points 13 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]oneiorosgrip 1 point2 points3 points 13 years ago (35 children) | Copy Link

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[–]oneiorosgrip 1 point2 points3 points 13 years ago (29 children) | Copy Link

The point of the riddle is that if you call a tail a leg, a dog still only has 4 legs.

Calling a tail a leg doesn't make it a leg.

The same thing is true with feminism. Calling advocacy for equal rights "feminism" does not change what feminism is. It doesn't go back and erase all of the movement's activism, and it doesn't negate the movement's current initiatives, nor does it change anything about how feminist advocates have responded to men's issues, and to men talking about those issues. Basically, being nice and calling oneself a feminist does not make feminism nice. Instead of associating the movement with the individual, the individual is associating herself with the movement.

This significantly affects the individual's ability to use that label without telling people "what you have seen of feminism is true about me." The situation is that if you do not want to be perceived as embracing that which feminist activist groups actually do, it is wiser to not use that term to describe yourself.

[–]indigotrip 0 points1 point2 points 13 years ago (28 children) | Copy Link

[–]oneiorosgrip3 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

You got the gem of the discussion - that many people who think they are feminists because they support women's rights are actually egalitarian with a focus on women. The thing is, it is important to get that across to people using that label for themselves, because when they do, they lend public credibility to the segments of the movement which actively and deliberately attack social and legal recognition of the rights of others. People think of feminism as benign because there are benevolent people who call themselves feminists without understanding the nature of the movement with which they're associating themselves.

At the same time, we in this sub get a few posts a week (sometimes one a day) from people writing to tell us why they think MRAs should get along with feminists.

Each post is written as if the individual thinks he or she is the first feminist to ever post a "can't we all just get along?" kind of topic in the sub. Other recurring themes of visiting feminist posts have been "not all feminists are like that" (which offers the logic that all of feminism is redeemed by the existence of fringe groups that proclaim peace, love, and understanding... but don't do anything) and "you don't understand feminism" which is basically "my feminism is the REAL feminism," used to counter the presentation of the history of feminist activism as evidence of the nature of feminism.

There's a lot more, which I could have you up all night talking about, but the gist is, we've seen so much of this that the natural reaction to anyone visiting the sub using the title "feminist" loses massive credibility points from the outset. In fact, some MRAs are understandably beginning to answer posts which extoll or even excuse feminism with "this thread again?"

Because of the factors involved, when a poster enters the sub with "I'm a feminist" as part of the introduction, MRAs are going to naturally be very skeptical of the individual at minimum.

[–]MEMEBOT_50001 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]indigotrip1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

This guy! Haha :P sorry you just got exactly what I wanted to get across while explaining to me MRAs point of view perfectly :) I totally agree with everything you have said here, and I do understand that it must be tiring having people come on here constantly arguing for feminism when it is quite clear what feminism has done through all the posts that are posted here. Although I really do wish 'we could all get along' in the sense that MRAs and WRAs could join forces to be a larger body that is for all gender equality. The rift between us is still obviously there and I feel that there are way more people for gender equality than there are for feminism. Maybe if MRAs worked with WRAs instead of against feminism then we could get more done. This goes the same for WRAs working with MRAs instead of against men who just accuse us of being militant feminists when we are not.

[–]oneiorosgrip0 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

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[–]oneiorosgrip1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Using suffragettes as an example is a double-edged sword. Suffragettes accomplished something necessary, but they didn't do it in a vacuum, and their behavior was not as everyone today thinks it was. They were violent and criminal in their actions. Further, the circumstances they were dealing with were not unique, or universal. In the U.S. in 1776, when the country was still under English Common Law, only landowners could vote. In 1787, when the constitution was adopted, states were given control over voting rights. When Washington was elected, only 6% of the U.S. population could vote. At the same time, in the colony of New Jersey, single women could vote.

What I would say is that feminism has taken all of the aspects of female activism that are hateful, angry, and resentful, and built on those, ignoring the good they could have done, had equality been and remained the main goal of the movement. I think a lot of women identify with feminism, not just because of the women's rights aspect, but because they've never gotten a full picture of the ideology or the activism. It's easy to like something when all you are told about it is the pretty parts.

[–]indigotrip1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Oh no, I definitely know all about that and about all the voting laws that came in place in the UK. It was the same here, only certain landowners, then men, then married women, etc etc. The Suffragettes were extremely militant, and could even be considered terrorists. While the Suffragists were more peaceful. Although they were violent they felt that they had to be. And for all the terrible things they did, they did a lot of good for women, and they did stop all militant activity during the war and they fully took a hold of their duties to work the factories at home while men were away. I personally feel that their actions were on the violent side and I don't think what they did was necessarily right, but it was needed, and it set the path for women to carry on doing good work for gender equality, unfortunately many women feel that these violent tactics are still needed and now we are pretty much generally equal they are fighting for stupid little arguments with the strength of the suffragettes and actually destroying the work they had done. Feminism was needed at a point in our history, but in today's world equality is what we need. Societies and people change and so should our actions.

[–]oneiorosgrip1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

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[–]Pornography_saves_li1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Not to put too fine a point on it, and Godwinning for fun and profit:

Do you think Jews were all that concerned as to whether or not the soldier herding them onto the rail cars bought the Nazi ideology wholesale? Or that they were 'misinformed'?

Yeah, me either.

Now, take that same idea, and apply it here - I'll use myself as example:

Do you think I, an MRA of many years who sees Feminism in literally exactly the same light as Nazism, give a rat's ass if the person claiming to be a Feminist actually isn't "like that"?

Because I don't. Not even a little bit. You can be the nicest, sweetest woman in the world. I can know you for months and never see a thing from you I object to. But if you were to tell me you were a Feminist, that would be the very last time you would see me.

I want to 'date' a Feminist (for example), about as much as a Black person wants to date a hardcore racist, or proud member of the KKK.

[–]indigotrip1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]Pornography_saves_li1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]indigotrip1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]Pornography_saves_li1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Wow, you really have a lot of anger in you. I really hope you can learn to let it go and fight for equal rights instead of against feminism.

Shove your passive aggressive bullshit up your ass.

Men against feminism only makes them angrier and stronger, and the media are going with them because they are scared not to.

The Media has been trying to shut us up for 20 years. We grew this movement in the face of media censorship and blackouts. Feminists have proven, over and over again for decades, they have no intention of EVER 'helping' men, and spend WAY more of their time fighting us than doing anything else.

Like I said previously, you're a feminist.

Scared to be called sexist.

Sounds like fucking near everyone in this sub, frankly. And a growing percentage of the MRM. It's also, 'curiously', the reason why you think I should 'learn to let it go'....now innit?

What feminists need is an opposition of egalitarians, both men and women.

Women have proven themselves incapable of caring about men enough to set aside their own selfish desires. Plus, men SHOULD be speaking up for themselves. And 'egalitarians' won't accomplish a fucking thing, because nearly all of them are too wishy-washy to spark any kind of interest. 'Egalitarian' is a word for people too afraid to speak up against injustice.

Men and women are not equal, and they never will be. But they SHOULD have equal Human and Legal Rights. You want Harrison Bergeron, I'll fight you tooth and nail AS WELL.

That is more likely to have weight against them.

Yeah, because the 'egalitarian movement' is the one making the headway...not some 'Mens Rights Movement'. After all, no one would pay attention to a gendered movement...right?

All you are, is yet another false flag feminist trying to soften this movement into uselessness. You are poison, and should be avoided.

[–]indigotrip1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Wow, you really need to chill out. I am not going to sit here and be talked down to like I'm an idiot. This discussion was meant to be open and talk about different views, and everyone else on this thread has been really helpful and I have learned a lot, however although you can spout out names of people and certain examples of things in the media I may not have seen does not make you smarter or more worthy than I. We are all human and deserve the respect of each other. You are clearly a very angry person because I do not feel I have really given you a reason to be angry. I will believe what I believe and I will fight for things I believe are right. But I will not be called poison. You have no idea who I am or what I am like. I am not trying to 'soften this movement' I honestly feel everyone in this world has the right to all basic human rights and if that makes me a bad person then fine.

However I also understand that no matter how hard you try to have a reasonable debate on the internet, you will always meet people who are so set in their ways that they will just belittle you. But if thats the person you want to be then I hope you find happiness.

[–]Pornography_saves_li1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Wow, you really need to chill out.

Bite me.

I am not going to sit here and be talked down to like I'm an idiot.

Oh no, you're not just an idiot. You're a vile, bigoted sexist idiot.

This discussion was meant to be open and talk about different views, and everyone else on this thread has been really helpful and I have learned a lot, however although you can spout out names of people and certain examples of things in the media I may not have seen does not make you smarter or more worthy than I.

Sorry for being smarter than you, princess. It'll never happen again....(sigh)

We are all human and deserve the respect of each other.

Respect is EARNED, not 'deserved'. You haven't earned it. In fact, you started out as 'neutral' and went South from there awful fast. Don't blame me that you're such a fake, vile person.

I honestly feel everyone in this world has the right to all basic human rights and if that makes me a bad person then fine.

Yeah, and nearly everything you say shows you have internalized a narrative of man hate, you believe feminist propaganda, you're too fucking lazy to find out the truth on your own, and you're so narcissistic, you come on to a mens rights forum to crow about how great you are...and you KNOW NOT A FUCKING THING ABOUT WHAT WE FIGHT...yet you 'deserve respect'?

You and a coupl eother feminists come here to backslap each other on your 'mens advocacy', and talk about 'equality', and you DON'T EVEN KNOW WHAT EQUALITY MEANS TO A MAN.

Fuck you. Seriously, fuck you.

However I also understand that no matter how hard you try to have a reasonable debate on the internet, you will always meet people who are so set in their ways that they will just belittle you. But if thats the person you want to be then I hope you find happiness.

Again trotting out the Passive Agressive shit...

Go fuck yourself, sexist bitch.

[–]indigotrip2 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I'm sorry but where I'm from if you speak to someone that way you'll learn to keep your mouth shut pretty quick. Respect is something you should give all people until they give you a reason not to and you have definitely given me plenty of reasons not to respect you. I came on mensrights to see the other side of the story, not to 'crow about how great' I am. You have swore at me and called me vicious names because you believe I am a feminist. This is exactly the kind of thing I was trying to avoid. You have basically embodied my point perfectly. You can go about shouting about how feminists are vile and bigoted sexist idiots, but then you hit someone who isn't actually feminist at all and you lose an ally. I really don't know what I have done to deserve the things that you have said and I really hope the majority of people on this sub are not like this. I was about to leave and go to bed with a positive outlook on this sub but you have completely ruined that. I will take away all the things I have learned from everyone on here and how they helped me to see the flaws in my arguments. But you have not contributed anything except made me realise that there are some really angry hateful people out there.

EDIT: hear to here

[–]MEMEBOT_50001 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]Pornography_saves_li1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I'm sorry but where I'm from if you speak to someone that way you'll learn to keep your mouth shut pretty quick.

Ooooh, scary.

You have swore at me and called me vicious names because you believe I am a feminist. This is exactly the kind of thing I was trying to avoid.

Of course you were trying to avoid it. But you deserve it.

You can go about shouting about how feminists are vile and bigoted sexist idiots, but then you hit someone who isn't actually feminist at all and you lose an ally.

You don't know a fucking thing about any of this, and want to 'get along', thereby freezing the status quo. With 'allies' like you, who needs enemies?

As I said before, you are poison, and we are FAR better off with people like you as far away as possible.

I really don't know what I have done to deserve the things that you have said and I really hope the majority of people on this sub are not like this.

You continued down the path of bigotry in the face of someone trying to show you hjow offensive you were being. You insisted that men 'were' inherently evil...basically, you quoted nearly every Feminist Shibboleth, and then declared yourself 'egalitarian'. You are just another lying fucking Feminist trying to control the narrative. I hope to God you go the fuck away. Like, right now. People like you are a DRAG on this movement, not a help.

I was about to leave and go to bed with a positive outlook on this sub but you have completely ruined that.

Awwww...muffin....

But you have not contributed anything except made me realise that there are some really angry hateful people out there.

Yeah, better to do that, than actually think about anything I said. That way, you can sleep better.

I always wondered how you Feminists could sleep at night.

Now I know.

[–]Pornography_saves_li 0 points1 point2 points 13 years ago (13 children) | Copy Link

But my point is that many people believe they are feminist because of their fight for women's rights, which has nothing to do with how they view men as a whole.

Do they believe in Patriarchy Theory? Do they believe men have it better, and that it's because men want it that way?

Well, then your friends most definitely are man haters. Patriarchy Theory requires you to believe men as a sex are all sociopaths, inherently evil....but can be 'trained' to be sort of good.

Anyone who believes that tripe, be they 'MRA' or Feminist, is a man hater. Frankly, the notion that 'men had/have it better - AT ALL, EVER - basically requires the same feelings racism does to support them. Aside from a petulant whine or two as a child, I mean.

That's the litmus test I use these days. "Do you believe men oppress women?" If anyone, anyone at all answers 'yes' to that question, I refuse to associate with them.

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I get followed by drunk guys, get spoken down to quite often because I study a prodimently male subject, and I can hear people talking about my body etc. Like just the other day these guys were talking right behind me and shoving into me (we were in a crowd at a concert so it was expected) but they were talking about me and saying I 'wasn't bad' the other guy was like 'who the one you're raping??' he just laughed and carried on rubbing up against me. I tried to move but it was impossible. I just felt totally belittled. I left the crowd not long after and was getting a drink at a bar then this guy just came up to me grabbed me and tried to pull me but I just pushed him away. I definitely understand not all men are like this but it makes me want to stand up for women's rights more just because I have to deal with stuff like this.

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You're twisting my words here. I said I lean more towards helping women's rights because I am a women and have to deal with it on a day to day basis. You asked for an example and I gave one. Not at any point did I say that men do not have problems or their problems are not as bad as ours or that I only have problems because I am a woman. I believe both men and women should have equal rights and should respect each other equally. So please don't twist my words because it makes you seem angry at women.

EDIT: Also want to add that of course both genders have equality issues, otherwise we would not be fighting for them. It is disgraceful how some women feel they 'have the right' to treat men, how they cast them aside and feel that just because men before our time oppressed women that we can do the same. That is not acceptable at all, but it is just as unacceptable for a man to joke that he is 'raping' me or for a man to think he can grab and kiss me without my permission.

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[–]levelate 1 point2 points3 points 13 years ago* (10 children) | Copy Link

Women died so we could vote and have the same rights as men.

uh, in england women got suffrage about 10 years after men that didn't own land got suffrage.

the men got that as a 'reward' for the horrors of ww1, where millions of men died, an entire generation of men.

not to belittle the few women that did die to get the vote, but it is a drop in the ocean compared to the vast numbers of men slaughtered.

and they weren't fighting for the vote, they were fighting because it was that or be killed by your own side (even fighting in the trenches you may be killed by your own side, they would rake the trenches with gunfire, to ensure that everyone went over the top). and who was shaming these men and boys to go fight in the trenches? the suffragettes, with their damned white feather campaign.

do your research!

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It is fact that women have not been treated equally to men.

Just as MEN were (and are) not treated equally to WOMEN. I do not have the right to Reproductive Self Determination, for example, which people like you seem to think is OK for men, but the greatest Sin in the World for women.

Women died so we could vote and have the same rights as men.

That's a crock of horseshit.

But now feminism is unravelling that work and we all need to work together for a common goal of gender equality.

Lady, I don't give a fuck, at all, if women regress in legal rights to the point of virtual slavery. Know why? Because women haven't given a fuck - at all - that it happened to men. In fact, women DEMANDED it. You reap what you sow.

You should really be careful about the anger you put out across the internet, you may hurt someone without realising it.

Is that a threat? Lil miss Totalitarian?

I am in no way a man hating person

You're so fucking bigoted you don't even see your sexism when it's thrust in your face.

and there is nothing I can, or women can, or men can do about the past.

Except alter society completely to placate women's need for 'feeling secure' (familiar?), or to 'make up for men's oppression'? We can do PLENTY about the past. We can prosecute the fuckers that did this to us.

We should learn from our past and grow from it.

I have, hence my eternal enmity to Feminism. Again, spare me your passive aggressive Feminism Defending....I've seen it for years, you're like a broken record.

[–]indigotrip 0 points1 point2 points 13 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

I don't fully understand your first statement. Women's legal right to abortion is a grey area. Personally I think both partners should have an equal decision to make, unless it is a medical issue in which the woman is at risk. However I don't believe a man should chose to abort a child without the mother's consent, the same as I don't believe women should have the right to abort the child without the fathers consent.

2nd statement isn't horseshit. Emily Davidson died as a martyr of women for the vote in the UK.

I'm also confused about your next statement, virtual slavery?

Of course it is not a threat. I am actually warning you, some people may get hurt by the things you say. Words are powerful, use them wisely.

I dont see how I am being sexist.

And there isn't anything you can do to change the past. 'prosecute the fuckers' what the people who lived 200 years ago? You are clearly a very angry person and you really aren't helping your arguments by swearing and being disrespectful. It doesn't make you look big.

And if what I am saying is so offensive to you then you should just let it go and not get so angry over it. I simply think all people should have basic human rights and we should learn from our history and not blame todays people for yesterdays problems. It's pretty common and peaceful viewpoint and I don'y see how it warrants your aggression. History is just stuff that happened a long time ago. But it is fact, it happened and theres nothing we can do but learn and grow.

[–]Pornography_saves_li1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I don't fully understand your first statement. Women's legal right to abortion is a grey area.

Grey or not, women HAVE that choice, men do not. At the behest of Feminists, and supported by women in general...all without a single thought to actual equality which would extend choice to both sexes. Again, the fact I have to point this out is yet another demonstration of your bigoted worldview.

Emily Davidson died as a martyr of women for the vote in the UK.

Hundreds of thousands of British men died without the vote. When they returned from WW1, they demanded suffrage. And women got the vote, because men did. Not because of one tart died a 'martyr'.

(Jesus you Feminists are Religious).

I'm also confused about your next statement, virtual slavery?

Confused huh? There's that amazing belief in equality coming through again, your utter ignorance of the issues men face is a glowing endorsement of your 'really caring about men' ness....

Of course it is not a threat. I am actually warning you, some people may get hurt by the things you say. Words are powerful, use them wisely.

I don't fucking care if people cry for days after reading my posts. If you're that much of a pussy, grow the fuck up.

You are clearly a very angry person and you really aren't helping your arguments by swearing and being disrespectful. It doesn't make you look big.

Why do all of you Leftist pussies make this argument? Indoctrinated much? Anger is a LEGITIMATE emotion, and if it's unexpressible in the face of massive social injustice, just when the fuck IS it 'ok' by you feminist types to get mad? When you're getting mad on behalf of women, I suppose.

Fucking hypocritical snob.

And if what I am saying is so offensive to you then you should just let it go and not get so angry over it.

You give yourself too much credit. I'm not angry personally, but I love insulting and swearing at false flag feminists like yourself.

I find it soothing. Because you are NEVER going to actually give a shit about this stuff. You're here for preening, not activism.

I simply think all people should have basic human rights and we should learn from our history and not blame todays people for yesterdays problems.

Liar, you want people to stop blaming your Religion (feminism) for all the things Feminism has wrought. You want to 'escape punishment'...Hell, you don't have a fucking clue about the most basic of mens issues, but you declare yourself egalitarian, and deem me...a guy who DOES know about this stuff...'irrational'.

I certainly hope anyone reading this is paying attention both to your argument, and how many other 5th column feminists pose the exact same ones regularly. Oh, and your shaming is quite sub-par. You're in the Big Leagues of Trolling now cupcake. YOu better up your game.

It's pretty common and peaceful viewpoint and I don'y see how it warrants your aggression.

Of course you don't. Because you don't know a damned thing about men or their issues, so you see no reason why we can't let bygones be bygones and all get along.

If you had any idea how much shit Feminism put men through, you would realize just how fucking repulsive you are.

History is just stuff that happened a long time ago.

There's a Post Modern insight. Shall we call you Aristotle from now on?

But it is fact, it happened and theres nothing we can do but learn and grow.

We can do PLENTY. We can dismantle the entire edifice. We can remove corrupt officials and 'public servants' from office who espouse and further these injustices. We can blacklist every Acvademic who wrote advocacy research for these aims, and we can prosecute every Judge, Social Worker, Court Employee, or otherwise, who has ever violated mens Human Rights...REGARDLESS of whether they were 'just doing their job' or not.

They deserve to have that excuse work just as well for them, as it did for Concentration Camp guards.

Then, we can replace all the guys in Prison for Drug War offenses, and Feminist victim industry offenses, with the assholes that wrecked society....namely, Feminist politicians, academics, and civil servants.

That would make a good START.

[–]indigotrip1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

You are telling me I am a liar for telling you what I believe in? That makes absolutely no sense. I came on here to learn more about MensRights and just say that not all women are the same. Also it is definitely an arguable point on weather women got the vote because of their work in the war, or the activists but thats a whole other debate. Not a debate I would have with you because you are clearly incapable of listening to other peoples opinions and then forming a critical argument. You turn to aggression and swearing to hide behind. You call me repulsive because you think I am a feminist because I am a women? Your logic really doesn't make any sense to me whatsoever. I can discuss any topic with anyone but narrow-minded people are all the same no matter what their argument is, and it is just impossible to debate with them or have a real conversation. And because of that, I'm out. I really don't want to waste any more of my time being called vile names because of a movement I don't even agree with.

[–]Pornography_saves_li1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I came on here to learn more about MensRights and just say that not all women are the same.

And yet you learned nothing, and provided another example of typical female solipsism.

Also it is definitely an arguable point on weather women got the vote because of their work in the war, or the activists but thats a whole other debate.

Yeah, and a debate that only Feminists give a shit about. It's the basis of your victim narrative, isn't it? Or one of?

you are clearly incapable of listening to other peoples opinions and then forming a critical argument. You turn to aggression and swearing to hide behind.

Then you can't read. Go try it again and you will see that, in and among those swear words your thin-skinned self can't see past, is a whole slew of debate points and positions. Just because you're a Church Lady Busybody doesn't mean I have to dance to your tune.

BY the way, that's Lesson One in the Manosphere....your discomfort as a woman means precisely fuck all here.

You call me repulsive because you think I am a feminist because I am a women?

No, I KNOW you are a Feminist, because you quote all their talking points nearly verbatim, you know NOTHING about men except Feminist agitprop, and you have literally said NOTHING to make me believe you were anything BUT a Feminist.

GWW, Typhonblue and others are women. You? You're a female.

I can discuss any topic with anyone but narrow-minded people are all the same no matter what their argument is, and it is just impossible to debate with them or have a real conversation.

Speaking for yourself? All you've done is make ridiculous claims and half-formed arguments constructed of shards of Feminist victim-narrative.

And because of that, I'm out.

Aww c'mon liar...that's not why you're 'out'...

I really don't want to waste any more of my time being called vile names because of a movement I don't even agree with.

You haven't said a single word to show you actually disagreed with Feminism. Your beliefs and view of History is entirely, 100% consistent to Feminist doctrine. You are indistinguishable in every way from any other Feminist in your beliefs.

You not only agree with Feminism, you do so in the face of knowing just how hateful and totalitarian it really is. You aren't disavowing anything except the consequences of being what you are. A feminist hate monger.

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Title	Please hear me out..
Author	[deleted]
Upvotes	4
Comments	176
Date	May 29, 2013 8:37 PM UTC (13 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/1fai57/please_hear_me_out/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/please-hear-me-out.1172586 https://theredarchive.com/post/1172586

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