Teach women not to throw their babies in the dumpster!

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I'm not sure what you're not getting here. The whole "teach not to " shit is deeply rooted in an infantalized view of people. We teach children morals by using specific instances, the moral principles they learn from specific instances can then be applied to a broad spectrum of situations.

They aren't programmed machines. Patents do not have to give them a rape=bad parameter. My parents never taught me "rape is bad, mmmmkay" because they were too busy teaching me broad principles and giving me a moral compass... all of which was (and should be) instilled before a child is even capable of any of this.

It starts out with "don't hit" and "share" at less than 2 years old then transitions into more abstract things such as "how would you feel if" and "do unto others as you would have them do unto you".

If you're at the point where you have to teach little Johnny that rape is bad, you've already failed as a parent and fucked up your child for life.

My parents didn't have to teach me that identity theft was bad, or not to blackmail people. Those are just things I know to be wrong because they did a decent job of raising me.

If you draw a vin diagram of people who can be taught that rape is bad, and people who rape, there won't be anyone in the overlap.

[–]UhOhPlzNo -5 points-4 points-3 points 8 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

If you draw a vin diagram of people who can be taught that rape is bad, and people who rape, there won't be anyone in the overlap.

This is the crux of the discussion here. I think there are plenty of people who believe that if someone says "no" but then doesn't physically resist further advances, it's not rape. Additionally, it is pretty consistent for people who say that they would never rape someone to also say that they would have sex with an unconscious person without explicit prior consent.

So while you and plenty of other people understand the basics, there are still plenty of people who don't. Whatever learning process is happening here isn't sufficient for a significant fraction of people. Maybe a more nuanced and widespread discussion of consent would help with this, maybe it wouldn't, but I do happen to think it's worth a look.

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They haven’t been raised that way, they are - to express it in a way they would think about - adults who have finished the learning.

Teens and preteens who have never had sex before don't think of themselves as adults who have finished learning. Seriously, did you think of yourself as a confident adult when you were 12? Puberty is widely understood as a time of deep uncertainty. The vast majority of kids need quite a bit of help transitioning into the many changes that puberty brings; that's why we educate kids about it in the first place.

The issue with your idea is, as the other dude already said, that these people who are capable of even saying they would have sex with an unconscious person, will not be in a mental state of being able to be taught about consent.

You say this, but how do you know? I don't think either of us has a deep enough understanding of psychology to definitively make a claim either way.

Not every possibility is worth a look, because some possibilities can backfire.

That's why I don't think we should jump into it by instituting a national program. I think we should randomly choose classrooms, teach them the basics of consent, and look at how their attitudes towards consent change compared to a control. That's what taking a look means.

[–]xNeshty 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Seriously, did you think of yourself as a confident adult when you were 12?

You don‘t get my point - I haven‘t thought about raping others at 12 as well. And at the age of 17, yes, I was thinking I‘m a grown ass adult knowing how life works. That is completly off my argument though. It is that you grow up with those moral valuing, which people around you value. It’s not a nuanced discussion you see once in TV that shapes your character, it’s your family you see every day, the way your parents handle their life and your life, your friends, your school. These things shape you as a child. But what I am talking about is an adult. Someone old enough to ‚do what he likes to‘ - if such a person grew up with the wrong values, he will not change them that easily by a nuanced discussion, that’s not how his life went. Many different feelings and experience this person has had that lead to his actions now - and a simple ‚no rape is reeeally bad‘ will not alter these feelings or experiences.

You say this, but how do you know? I don't think either of us has a deep enough understanding of psychology to definitively make a claim either way.

I don’t want to sound disrespectful, but how do you know, or why do you think, that I don’t have an understanding deep enough for the points I claim? Do you know which education I was gratefully able to enjoy?

I surely was exaggerating that all people who would have sex with an unconscious person are not capable to be taught about consent. But it is a simple concept in psychology - a persons actions shape their way to think. When you encounter an argument which indirectly attacks one of your previous life decisions, such as ‚sex with unconscious person is rape and rape has to be punished‘, you have three options: Defend yourself, mostlikely resulting in attacking the other persons point, a metaphorical runaway, or accept the other arguments and reshape your worldview. The first two will manifest in what you have already believed (solely by the fact that you have to think about it and ‚save‘ the current experience) and the ladder requires an incredible amount of mental effort. That is only possible if the person is open to changing his worldviews and encounters arguments he can agree with. Now that is a very rare(!) exception if you argument with people you don’t sympathize with. And this is the crucial part - someone who has never received love has a hard time to sympathize with others, which means, he will not as easily accept others points and change the way he thinks about things. That was what I initially meant with my exaggeration.

I think we should randomly choose classrooms, teach them the basics of consent, and look at how their attitudes towards consent change compared to a control.

I would want to agree with, because that would be the ideal world - but once again, these kids that such a discussion is directed to will need a different environment in first place. If they don’t experience love and failure, if they never learn that they cannot do whatever shit they want to do, consent will just be an abstract concept they’ve heard about but don’t care of.

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Sure, but now you're expecting people to be able to apply broad ethical principles to specific situations. A good fraction of people aren't able to do that or just won't. This is why we often talk about moral and ethical issues by using specific examples. Stuff like "If you found a wallet on the ground, what would you do? What would you want someone to do if they found your wallet on the ground?"

We talk through these things because a lot of people don't expend the mental effort to make these associations on their own. All I'm saying is that it might be useful if we do the same thing for situations involving consent. Give people an opportunity to make associations between the abstract ethical principles you mentioned, and the more concrete situations involving sexual situations. As it is, we never really give them the opportunity to do that.

Unlike pretty much every aspect of morality we teach, we kind of expect them to draw most of those associations on their own.

[–]Mahoney2 -4 points-3 points-2 points 8 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]corwin_amber 3 points4 points5 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

There’s a massive amount of distinctions that should be addressed with rape that don’t apply to other crimes.

Not really. As with every violent crime, and crime in general, there will always be people who - for one reason or another - are willing to commit that crime, despite the consequences. No matter how good our society becomes at socializing its citizens and providing opportunity, there will always be people who fall through the cracks and commit crime.

The example you gave about a man thinking a woman secretly likes to be raped; there are murderers who think God wants them to murder. There are all sorts of ways criminals justify their actions in their own minds.

In each case, there is a constant. At some point in that criminals life, something went wrong and they fell by the wayside.

[–]Mahoney2 -1 points0 points1 point 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

You’re making huge generalizations and equivalencies based on nothing but how you feel. Here’s one way rape is different: in every other type of crime, the victim loses something tangible, property or life. Rape has no immediate, obvious, external effect and so people find a ton of ways to minimize it. Furthermore, you may steal to eat or kill to protect yourself. Rape is never for anything except to satisfy yourself.

https://www.google.com/amp/amp.timeinc.net/time/4585942/europe-rape-survey-justifiable

One out of every four europeans polled here said that rape could be justified. That is insane.

https://www.bustle.com/articles/19540-majority-say-rape-is-justified-if-women-wear-revealing-clothes-according-to-brazilian-poll

Majority of brazilians polled here say that if a woman is wearing revealing clothing rape is justified.

And you’re against... saying that rape is bad? Because it might have some subconscious effect on some people to think that men can be rapists? That’s so silly to me. Your priorities are out of whack.

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This isn't equating any rape prevention efforts to a smear campaign against men.

My college orientation gathered all 2-3,000 of us freshman in the gymnasium and basically told everyone that 1/3 of all the women would be raped, and that all men become rapists after drinking alcohol. This feminist orientation speaker lied by saying 495 of the ladies in the room will be raped in college to intentionally smear men and fear monger. In reality the amount of people and not just women who were raped is much, much lower.

Now think about rape prevention that doesn't just point the finger at everyone with a penis and say "stay away they're all evil" but instead gives tools for prevention without absolving all responsiblity from someone just because she has a vagina and regrets her drunken decision. So the person who made the drunken decision with a penis is at fault and their lives deserve to be ruined because men are disposable.

To illustrate my point, look at this poster:

https://www.mencanstoprape.org/images/stories/Images__Logos/Strength_Media/BI1.jpg

Vs this poster:

https://www.dailydot.com/wp-content/uploads/f7f/2a/jakejosie.jpg

The former is constructive, shows men aren't all rapists, isn't making up things to irrationally demonize men or fear monger.

The later is some sexist bullshit. If both are drunk then both can't consent and they raped each other. Not both made a decision while drunk and the one with a vagina regretted it so the one with a penis is fucked for life.

Also, this is fear based prevention work. Which there are plenty of data around that proves fear based prevention doesn't work, and can actually do more harm than good.

E: here's more on how fear based prevention doesn't work-

Fear based substance abuse prevention doesn't work, and can actually do more harm than good.

https://teens.drugabuse.gov/blog/post/scare-tactics-does-fear-influence-your-opinion-about-drug-abuse

https://www.blvdcenters.org/blog/scaring-people-away-drugs-work

https://www.drugaddictiontreatment.com/addiction-in-the-news/addiction-news/drug-scare-tactics-backfire/

A strategy that does work is educating to misperceptions and showing that most people don't use. Research shows when someone uses they misperceive the amount of people who use too. If you ask a chronic marijuana smoker "what percentage of people would you say smoke weed?" Their percentage is likely to be way above the actual percentage, and their perception is that MOST people smoke weed. When in reality, the percentage is well below 50% and MOST people do not smoke weed. Educating to this misperception also takes peer pressure away, and focuses on positive, healthy choices. When someone sees billboards like these:

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_xA79WbuHKgU/TKAiuBIcnmI/AAAAAAAAAC8/Cd5fQTJg30A/s1600/methsex.jpg

https://gdb.voanews.com/DA6BC8B4-2995-4E11-B16F-EF98CEFBCE48_w1023_r1_s.jpg

https://brannray.files.wordpress.com/2009/07/beating1.jpg

https://bloximages.chicago2.vip.townnews.com/billingsgazette.com/content/tncms/assets/v3/editorial/e/ac/eac1fdd8-691a-11de-96f3-001cc4c002e0/eac1fdd8-691a-11de-96f3-001cc4c002e0.image.jpg

Their reaction is disgust, they blot it out and tray not to look at it or think about it because it's too much. So their message is lost, and it is only directed to a very small audience. Also, it normalizes substance use. They literally say things like "Losing your virginity in a dirty bathroom on meth is normal" or "beating up old people for meth money is normal" etc...

For effective substance abuse prevention you want to show the desired. Not the undesired. It's a balance of hope and concern. We're not forgetting about anyone, we're concerned about users, but our hope is to provide enough support and effective prevention strategies that the amount of users are reduced significantly.

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It's common knowledge that harming another person or their property is wrong. Only humans who haven't developed the ability to socialize don't have an impulse to avoid such behavior -- Sure, when we socialize children, we teach them not to harm others. And that lesson is broadly and intuitively applied to all manner of harm, to include rape.

The riveting question, and the subject of this entire discussion, is why certain people want to single out rape among all other violent criminal acts and social taboos as the one act which one sex in particular doesn't seem to intuitively understand is criminal and antisocial.

I mean, I don't remember being explicitly taught not to chuck babies into hot garbage. And yet, I somehow intuitively understand that it is wrong and illegal. But maybe I'm abnormal. When did your parents sit you down and give you the dumpster baby talk? Or maybe you've memorized volumes of legal text, for without it, your life would be like GTA5; non-stop random acts of crime.

[–]SoylentGreyGoo0 points 8 years ago [recovered] (1 child) | Copy Link

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It seems you want to argue about what constitutes rape, and use a carefully defined version of the term to make your case that men would avoid raping if they just knew what rape actually is, and not what everyone commonly understands it to be.

I won't have that argument, because I know that any definition of rape that depends on not knowing the unknowable state of another's mind classifies all sex as potential rape.

(i.e., You might say something with the effect of "Apparent consent is not sufficient, verbal consent is mandatory to establish that the sex act is not a rape." And when that condition is shown to be flimsy, you'll argue that "consent is ongoing" without stopping to consider that the "ongoing consent" is based on the same intuition which was found to be insufficient in the first place.)

No. I will only argue about rape when rape is defined as sex without the perceived consent of one or more unwilling participants, where consent is sufficient but not necessary. (If a man has sex with a woman who apparently acts as though she is consenting, while secretly in her mind she is not consenting, no rape has occurred.)

On that very solid definition, do you believe that people who brag about raping know that rape is wrong and illegal?

If not, doesn't that mean there is something abnormal about the rapists? Wouldn't you agree they exhibit antisocial behavior?

If so, you should re-read my last post. It answers your question as to why perfectly innocent men become upset when they are categorically lumped in with criminals.

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They are making a point that making a broad generalization is stupid. I've seen people told off because during a rant about how men are terrible, a Male reasonably said he didnt do the things they were basically yelling at him for.

That set them off more because instead of listening he said he didnt do those things. Reasonably so.

Then turned the #notallmen phrase into a joke. I understand it originally meant if a woman has a problem and shes sharing her situation, dont responded with " well I certainly dont do that " and flat out ignore her obvious cry for help or just wanting to talk to someone. There are some women who just use it as an excuse to yell at any men they see, not use it for support and when the confused part explains they dont do any of what they are suggesting they respond with a sarcastic

" yeah yeah not all men" type of phrase

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Title	Teach women not to throw their babies in the dumpster!
Author	swiet
Upvotes	4899
Comments	208
Date	May 8, 2018 12:14 PM UTC (8 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PussyPassDenied
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/pussypassdenied/comments/8hw79u/teach_women_not_to_throw_their_babies_in_the/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PussyPassDenied/teach-women-not-to-throw-their-babies-in-the.1177991 https://theredarchive.com/post/1177991

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notallmen