Queensland to decriminalise sex work as review recommends new advertising rules | The 4th Australian state to make a rational, evidence-based decision and go full decrim rather than still criminalising male clients (i.e. Nordic model) as feminists want.

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I find that paper non-credible because its claims are contradicted by evidence that I am directly familiar with.

The first problem is that the paper refers only to "legalisation", which is an inferior approach to "decriminalisation", the model supported by everyone using a rational, evidence-based approach to setting policy:

https://decriminalizesex.work/why-decriminalization/organizations-endorsing-decriminalization/

The second problem is that the core claims of the paper:

The scale effect of legalized prostitution leads to an expansion of the prostitution market, increasing human trafficking, while the substitution effect reduces demand for trafficked women as legal prostitutes are favored over trafficked ones. Our empirical analysis for a cross-section of up to 150 countries shows that the scale effect dominates the substitution effect. On average, countries where prostitution is legal experience larger reported human trafficking inflows.

are simply false.

Multiple studies and public government inquiries held in Australia and New Zealand all confirmed that:

1) 10+ years after decriminalisation, the market for sex work had NOT expanded. In fact the number of active sex workers had fallen by 5% to 10% in each study.

2) The number of human trafficking victims in the sex work industry fell to zero. Which makes sense when you think about it: in a decriminalised industry, any client who suspects that a sex worker may be a trafficking victim can freely report that fact to police with no fear of legal consequences for themselves.

3) Go ahead and try to find a single sex worker in Australia or New Zealand who has a pimp. They'll just laugh at you.

That paper is just nonsense. Probably made up by feminists to push their agenda with people who won't do any real investigation into the facts.

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[–]Minute_Ad_1494 -2 points-1 points0 points 3 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

This was peer reviewed study by Harvard University that took government data from multiple European countries. Not sure why you think that's "non credible".

"the model supported by everyone using a rational, evidence-based approach to setting policy"

The evidence from my study shows that Sweden has the lowest rate of sex trafficking in Europe. Germany, a country with legal prostitution, has the highest.

The UN doesn't currently have an exact number/rate for trafficking In New Zealand, so I'm not sure where you're getting this from. https://www.unodc.org/unodc/en/human-trafficking/global-report-on-trafficking-in-persons.html
"The number of human trafficking victims in the sex work industry fell to zero"

I have no idea where you read this, there have been tons of reported cases of sex trafficking in New Zealand. https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://redyellowblue.org/data/nz/trafficking/&ved=2ahUKEwjtvqTujsT-AhUKnGoFHddID5A4ChAWegQICxAB&usg=AOvVaw2sCfI7VqHeXvOiS-FtEJfT

And that's despite the fact that the government does not meet basic requirements to prevent it, even when there's proof that its happening. https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.state.gov/reports/2022-trafficking-in-persons-report/new-zealand/%23:~:text%3DThe%2520government%2520has%2520never%2520certified,a%2520victim%2520of%2520sex%2520trafficking.&ved=2ahUKEwjv3NnQjsT-AhWrlmoFHSxQAVoQFnoECA8QBQ&usg=AOvVaw3Nl9hmJkWDZzmqBxRdbOIA

"Go ahead and try to find a single sex worker in Australia or New Zealand who has a pimp"

Ok, here you go. https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/kiwi-fugitive-pornographer-on-fbis-most-wanted-list-arrested-in-spain/PFMKVRXMNBA2VHAM42T7R36UCQ/

"That paper is just nonsense. Probably made up by feminists to push their agenda with people who won't do any real investigation into the facts."

Yes, I'm sure Harvard University is made up by feminists.

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"There are former sex workers who say they loved there job as a sex worker"

Good for them, but those women make up a VERY small percentage of people.

The majority of Sw are victims to violent assault, kidnapping, rape, and homelessness. Very few people actually consent to that job. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/9698636/

"orrelation doesn't necessarily equal causation"

Well, funny enough, countries that's enacted the Swedish model saw a reduction in sex trafficking. https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.catwa.org.au/the-nordic-model/&ved=2ahUKEwjantKKpsX-AhWXlWoFHRZaBRo4ChAWegQIChAB&usg=AOvVaw1KThMsG5Jz6FGOS6lHtfN7

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://brooklynworks.brooklaw.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi%3Farticle%3D1606%26context%3Djlp&ved=2ahUKEwjantKKpsX-AhWXlWoFHRZaBRo4ChAWegQIBxAB&usg=AOvVaw0MRmBTvl638LtsjLnX0lq3

What correlation do you think could cause that?

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"A small number of human trafficking cases, not sex trafficking"

Anti trafficking organizations say that it is sex trafficking. https://redyellowblue.org/data/nz/trafficking/

"Also, the entire state and federal police forces being unable to identify a single sex trafficking victim in the entire six year reporting period is not “a few police”, it is a conclusive outcome."

Again, read the articles I sent you from the U.N. and the u.s. government. The new Zealand government doesn't meet the basic requirements for identifying/eliminating trafficking. As of right now, they don't even have a protocol to identify trafficking victims. https://www.state.gov/reports/2022-trafficking-in-persons-report/new-zealand/

But even still, you're ignoring the bugger issue and trying to focus on NZ alone.

It's been proven that over all, countries with legal prostitution have higher rates if trafficking. But for some reason you're only focused on new Zealand.

[–]EricAllonde[S] 2 points3 points4 points 3 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]EricAllonde[S] 2 points3 points4 points 3 years ago (11 children) | Copy Link

Anti trafficking organizations say that it is sex trafficking.

https://redyellowblue.org/data/nz/trafficking/

First, I don't know why I would believe a random Russian website's claims about New Zealand over the New Zealand police and New Zealand government. But I'll humour you.

This thesis aimed to explore the experiences of Aotearoa victims of sex trafficking, using a narrative approach underpinned by a feminist [...] epistemology

Ah, found the lie.

They admit to using the feminist ideological position of, "every woman is a victim, even if she says she isn't".

So if a sex worker in Thailand buys herself a plane ticket to Auckland and spends a couple of months working there, feminists label her a sex trafficking "victim" and bemoan the fact that more level-headed institutions refuse to go along with their insistence on fake victimhood.

She can't be a strong, empowered woman making rational choices to maximise her income... because she's making choices that feminists don't approve of. Therefore she's a victim, no matter what she says.

I saw the same thing in Australia through multiple public inquiries into the decriminalisation of sex work. The same thing happened every time: sex workers would state that they wanted decriminalisation, it provided the best outcomes for them. Feminists, and the religious fundamentalists they weirdly allied themselves with, would tell the sex workers to shut up, they didn't know what was good for them, they actually wanted the Entrapment Model but were just too confused to realise that as a result of all their patriarchal oppression, etc etc.

Feminists. What plague upon society they are.

It's been proven that over all, countries with legal prostitution have higher rates

My guess is that the same feminist dishonesty is behind that dubious claim. As I said: the actual facts in Australia and New Zealand are exactly opposite to these claims.

[–]Minute_Ad_1494 0 points1 point2 points 3 years ago (10 children) | Copy Link

"First, I don't know why I would believe a random Russian website's claims"

It's not a 'random Russian website' they're a reputable human rights organization. https://redyellowblue.org/organizations/igos/un/udhr/

"They admit to using the feminist ideological position of, "every woman is a victim, even if she says she isn't"."

So you're just assuming that they're lying about people being sex trafficked, because they're feminists? You don't see anything wrong with that?

"So if a sex worker in Thailand buys herself a plane ticket to Auckland and spends a couple of months working there"

If you think that's all that's happening, then you're very naive.

Lots of trafficking victims come here through "debt bonds" where they pray on impoverished women from foreign countries and force them to work as prostitutes. Many of these women would have their passports withheld from them and were not allowed to leave the country. Plenty more were physically beaten.

https://aifs.gov.au/resources/practice-guides/trafficking-women-sexual-exploitation

"My guess is that the same feminist dishonesty is behind that dubious claim"

Not everything is the big bad feminists fault. Harvard University is reporting on a study taking police data from 116 different countries. https://journalistsresource.org/economics/legalized-prostitution-human-trafficking-inflows/#sthash.CYqsvtMK.dpuf

This has nothing to do with feminism. You don't have to be a feminist to know that trafficking is wrong.

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Don’t get me wrong, I like a nice slap in the face now and then, but I don’t really see how this is a loss for feminists? Feminists who don’t support sex workers (SWERFs) are, like TERFs, a vocal segment of the community who are kind of on the outs with the feminist community more generally. Most feminists I know are very much in favor of decriminalization.

The reason for the type of “decriminalization” you see in the Nordic Model, where sex workers aren’t punished but clients are, is to keep sex work a crime while taking away the barriers that would prevent sex workers from reporting crimes against them. If you’ve been assaulted, raped, stolen from, held against your will, drugged, abused, etc, etc, you aren’t going to report it if you’ll be admitting to the crime of prostitution in the process. And sex workers are statistically very likely to be victims to those sorts of crimes, so penalizing them for coming forward keeps law enforcement from being alerted of more severe crimes than prostitution. That type of legislation is a practical move, not an ideological one—it still assumes that sex work shouldn’t be legal. It’s still anti-prostitution. All it does is try to manage reporting barriers for other crimes in the process.

Actual decriminalization is completely different. It’s a pro-sex-work position, which is actually more in line with what most feminists endorse. So unless you’re a SWERF, this is good news for feminists too. Feminists who support sex work don’t want men to be prosecuted for it because that would be entirely counter-productive. Maybe this is a loss for SWERFs, but only because that’s the case for anyone who’s generally anti-sex-work, “feminist” or not. Most feminists endorse decriminalization.

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If it's decriminalized and not legalized, how do men or women know the person they are participating with doesn't have an STD? Or is that simply a workplace hazard?

The Australian state of New South Wales decriminalised first in 1996. Here's what has happened there since:

There is an organisation focussed on educating sex workers about condom use and safe sex. After decriminalisation, they were able to gain entry to more than 99% of brothels in order to speak with the sex workers there. In addition to talking about safe sex, they also educate them on worker's rights, including their right to be paid on time without money being withheld, and health & safety laws, including their right to refuse clients who appear to have an STD. Free STD tests are available to sex workers (and everybody else) thanks to Australia's universal healthcare system. Sex workers are encouraged to get tested regularly, and it remains illegal for a sex worker to have sex with clients while infected with an STD.

As a result, rates of condom use by sex workers have increased to more than 99% and rates of STDs among sex workers have fallen to extremely low levels, lower than the general population. So now there is less chance of catching an STD from a sex worker than from a random woman you meet while dating or have a one-night stand with.

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Sounds like you're misunderstanding what "decriminalised" means. It simply means that sex work is treated the same as any other type of work.

For example, hairdressers. Under decrim, sex workers have all the same rights as hairdressers.

If a client refuses to pay after service has been rendered, a hairdresser can call the police and report them for theft. So can a sex worker.

If a hairdresser is asked to work in unsafe conditions, she can report her employer to the relevant government organisation that deals with workplace health & safety. So can a sex worker.

See how that works?

In contrast, "legalisation" means that sex work is subject to a whole bunch of laws and regulations that apply only to sex work. While that's better than being criminalised, it's a very poor second to decriminalisation.

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The push for decriminalization is essentially a push for a free market for sex work.

Correct, and there's a good reason for that.

In NSW, the first Australian state to decriminalise, the main driver for that change was to reduce corruption in the police force.

The police were responsible for enforcing sex work laws at the time and lots of cops were getting started down the path to full-on corruption by threatening to arrest sex workers in order to extort a bit of cash or some free sex from them.

That would usually lead on to more serious crimes and we'd end up with another completely crooked cop taking bribes from criminal gangs etc.

There was a big inquiry (royal commission) into police corruption and one of the key recommendations was to remove the police completely from their role in regulating the sex work industry. Decriminalisation was recommended, in large part for this reason.

More than 25 years later, this decision has been a spectacular success. Police corruption is way down, there is almost zero involvement of organised crime in sex work, sex trafficking is down to zero, violence against sex workers is extremely low, rates of STDs among sex workers are lower than the general population. Decriminalisation has made a huge improvement in every metric.

Two subsequent government inquiries have reconfirmed the overwhelming benefits of decriminalisation and ruled out any return to police involvement in the industry, despite the police lobbying hard for that at one of the inquiries.

To continue with my analogy above: as much as we have a "free market for hairdressing", we should also have a "free market for sex work". It's proven to deliver the best outcomes all round.

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Because the worker in that "business deal" is very likely not consenting to it. https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://2001-2009.state.gov/r/pa/ei/rls/38790.htm%23:~:text%3DThe%2520vast%2520majority%2520of%2520women,in%2520prostitution%2520want%2520to%2520escape.&ved=2ahUKEwimqvOt5MP-AhUIkGoFHcCqCZwQFnoECBEQBQ&usg=AOvVaw3F5gui5g6E9Fshe1xWc-ZC

There are millions of people who are forced to work as prostitutes (sex trafficking), but nobody is forced to pay for a prostitute. That's why only one party should be criminalized.

And it's worked. Sweden has extremely low rates of trafficking compared to other European nations. https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.unodc.org/documents/publications/TiP_Europe_EN_LORES.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwiTu_n65MP-AhUslGoFHUupCCwQFnoECDQQAQ&usg=AOvVaw1wvG-bKJfK_Rs-jaxx3IUz

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A true feminist would want women or men to be able to do with their bodies as they wish as long its not harmful or abusive. The problem arises when segments of society decide they know what is best and feel they are acting in men or women's best interest even though it may go against the wishes of the individual.

So it's really an effort to control peoples bodies or how they use their bodies disguised as a morality issue. You would think feminists or women in general would support legal prostution the same way they they support abortion.

Most women will hopefully never have to have an abortion but most women support it and will fiercely defend the right to have the final say about whether or not they carry a fetus to full term. The same argument should be applied to legal prostitution. Your body, your choice.

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I don’t see how the decriminalizing of the provider side of sex work is an affront to men’s rights.

It isn't. It is a good thing for men, who no longer have to fear prosecution.

Of course the real victims in the sex trade are the victims of sex trafficking. And the real criminals are the sex traffickers.

Agreed.

Legalizing the sex trade from the provider side is just going to destabilize the traffickers.

The experience in Australia and New Zealand is that after sex work was decriminalised (not legalised, decriminalised), the rate of sex trafficking in the industry fell to zero.

The involvement of organised crime in the industry also fell to almost zero and there was a huge reduction in levels of police corruption.

Decriminalisation has been hugely beneficial in Australia and New Zealand.

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They want to be able to let these people advertise on TV and radio - wtf.

The point of decriminalisation is to treat sex workers exactly the same as any other worker.

So if your hairdresser is allowed to advertise, so can a sex worker. They still have to comply with advertising standards, but there's no reason why they alone should be prohibited from advertising when everyone else can.

Also scrapping the licencing authority - the people who force the sex workers to get checked every 3 months for STDs - this government is idiotic.

We can look to the experience of NSW, which decriminalised in 1996, to understand what is the best approach.

NSW went for a mostly voluntary model, opting instead to educate sex workers on condom use, safe sex, workplace health & safety, etc. It worked incredibly well. Rates of condom use are above 99%, and the rate of STDs among sex workers is lower than the average for the general population.

It turns out that sex workers want to practice safe sex; they don't need to be monitored and threatened to do it.

If NSW had gone for a punitive regulatory approach, educators may not have had such free & complete access to brothels and independent sex workers, who would have a reason to avoid them. They would likely not have had as much success in that case.

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